2018-19 Roster talk; Part two

[deadhead]

I watched a dozen or so AHL games and the Pimp clearly has a much higher hockey IQ than Laughton.
Vorobyev plays under control, sees his linemates and makes excellent passes, and gets back in position on defense.
He's bigger than Laughton already, though Laughton is faster by an appreciable margin.

The thing that jumps out at me about Vorobyev is his passing behind the net in the O-zone, no one on the NHL team is as good at that as the pimp, he's able to thread the needle to someone in the slot. That's a great skill to have.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Excuse me? It was sacrilege when they let Hot Carle wear Stanley Cup Champion Shjon Podein's hallowed number twenty-five.

That is Peter Zezel's number and should never have been worn by anyone else.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Ummm, no you clearly have a personal preference. No objectivity.

For a guy who has never, or barely ever, seen him play you have a very vocal opinion on Vorobyev.

You show a lot of confidence in a guy who went from full-time NHL player to full-time AHL the next season. Then back to the NHL the following year where he lost his PK spot to Torgo and Filp. By the playoffs he wasn't even playing center.

Laughton is 3 years older than Vorobyev. If Vorobyev is suffering a similar fate in 3 years I'll eat my hat.

Laughton scored .65 pts/game in his most recent AHL season with his most common linemate as Taylor Leier and big minute 1C duties from day 1.

Vorobyev just scored at .5 pts/game while starting low in the lineup, with limited minutes, and little production at the start. All the while having Fazleev as his most common linemate who finished very low in possession rankings this year. Even so, Vorobyev finished very high.

Go re-read his interview from a month or so ago. Misha could not speak english. He did not even have confidence to shoot the puck. This is a player who improved leaps and bounds as he grew even a little comfortable. What improvement has Laughton displayed?

By the end of the year we were seeing the real Vorobyev. Anyone who watched regularly saw he's a smart player, a legit playmaker, and has the chops to handle the defensive rigors of playing center. He is what a bottom/middle 6 center is supposed to look like.

Laughton is a forechecking, straight ahead, tunnel visioned forward. His skillset doesn't even lend itself to that of a center. He has no future at center in this organization. He's 24 years old and the GM is talking up Jordan Weal over him. A player who can barely crack the lineup and is the antithesis of what they look for in a center.

The only other level of play we have to compare the two is World Juniors and that's not even close. Misha showed up and produced. Laughton didn't. Even with the 'C' on his chest. Canada got eliminated in the quarterfinal. Russia was a shootout away from beating a beast USA team in the semifinal. A shootout where Misha buried one. Then went on to win bronze the next day. Obviously, the WJC experience isn't the be all, end all, but I bring it up as a rare data point they both share.

I don't know man. This really doesn't seem like a tough choice. You really just have to watch the games imo.

I pretty much agree with you on this one, even though I’m not sure Vorobyev has done enough yet for me to go as far as saying it’s indefensible to own the opinion of preferring Laughton at the moment. I do expect Vorobyev to end up a better 3/4C, though. I’m not sure Laughton will be here much longer. He just doesn’t strike me as a Hextall type player, & one does wonder if he had some issues behind the scenes.

 

[Domino666]

Ummm, no you clearly have a personal preference. No objectivity.

For a guy who has never, or barely ever, seen him play you have a very vocal opinion on Vorobyev.

You show a lot of confidence in a guy who went from full-time NHL player to full-time AHL the next season. Then back to the NHL the following year where he lost his PK spot to Torgo and Filp. By the playoffs he wasn't even playing center.

Laughton is 3 years older than Vorobyev. If Vorobyev is suffering a similar fate in 3 years I'll eat my hat.

Laughton scored .65 pts/game in his most recent AHL season with his most common linemate as Taylor Leier and big minute 1C duties from day 1.

Vorobyev just scored at .5 pts/game while starting low in the lineup, with limited minutes, and little production at the start. All the while having Fazleev as his most common linemate who finished very low in possession rankings this year. Even so, Vorobyev finished very high.

Go re-read his interview from a month or so ago. Misha could not speak english. He did not even have confidence to shoot the puck. This is a player who improved leaps and bounds as he grew even a little comfortable. What improvement has Laughton displayed?

By the end of the year we were seeing the real Vorobyev. Anyone who watched regularly saw he's a smart player, a legit playmaker, and has the chops to handle the defensive rigors of playing center. He is what a bottom/middle 6 center is supposed to look like.

Laughton is a forechecking, straight ahead, tunnel visioned forward. His skillset doesn't even lend itself to that of a center. He has no future at center in this organization. He's 24 years old and the GM is talking up Jordan Weal over him. A player who can barely crack the lineup and is the antithesis of what they look for in a center.

The only other level of play we have to compare the two is World Juniors and that's not even close. Misha showed up and produced. Laughton didn't. Even with the 'C' on his chest. Canada got eliminated in the quarterfinal. Russia was a shootout away from beating a beast USA team in the semifinal. A shootout where Misha buried one. Then went on to win bronze the next day. Obviously, the WJC experience isn't the be all, end all, but I bring it up as a rare data point they both share.

I don't know man. This really doesn't seem like a tough choice. You really just have to watch the games imo.

I love this, preach on hermano

 

[CS]

Ummm, no you clearly.......................

For the audience out there...TLDR: Vorobyev has more potential. Blah blah you don't watch nearly as much hockey as I do! I watch the mostest hockey and have the bestest opinions because I'm smart and see what you don't see because you don't watch hockey!

My retort: Vorobyev is not the better player for the 3C right now. Change my mind. All you've done is wax poetic about an AHL forward with great two-way game and solid bottom-6 potential while not mentioning any of the upsides about the other player. You implied that I don't watch as much hockey as you or even see what you see.

Basically, your argument is that of a child's. Just because you think Vorobyev will be a better option in the future does not make him our 3C next year.

 

[sa cyred]

For the audience out there...TLDR: Vorobyev has more potential. Blah blah you don't watch nearly as much hockey as I do! I watch the mostest hockey and have the bestest opinions because I'm smart and see what you don't see because you don't watch hockey!

My retort: Vorobyev is not the better player for the 3C right now. Change my mind. All you've done is wax poetic about an AHL forward with great two-way game and solid bottom-6 potential while not mentioning any of the upsides about the other player. You implied that I don't watch as much hockey as you or even see what you see.

Basically, your argument is that of a child's. Just because you think Vorobyev will be a better option in the future does not make him our 3C next year.

Eh and keep saying Laughton will be the 3C also doesn’t work either. Especially when the GM is throwing other names like Weal in front of Laughton.

Misha has a good year in the AHL, and the GM is known to like him. I think he and Hak have both Laughton & Misha on the same ground for that spot.

 

[CS]

Eh and keep saying Laughton will be the 3C also doesn’t work either. Especially when the GM is throwing other names like Weal in front of Laughton.

Misha has a good year in the AHL, and the GM is known to like him. I think he and Hak have both Laughton & Misha on the same ground for that spot.

Hextall praised Laughton at the end of the year for "getting back on track."

Vorobyev finished the AHL season strong, but Laughton finished the NHL season out strong.

I'm not saying Vorobyev can't magic his way into 3C in camp. Anything can happen. I'm just saying that it's not as close as people seem to believe. A lot of players look really good at the AHL level. Three years ago, Laughton was one of them.

 

[Stizzle]

My retort: Vorobyev is not the better player for the 3C right now. Change my mind. All you've done is wax poetic about an AHL forward with great two-way game and solid bottom-6 potential while not mentioning any of the upsides about the other player.

Wow, great reply. You literally wrote nothing of substance about either player. Not one sentence. I gave a fairly detailed retort on each. Yet, my reply is one of a child? Cool.

What are these upsides of the other player that I failed so miserably to mention? I'd love to hear, ya know, actual hockey talk. Kind of like I gave when you challenged the board for a response.

 

[Striiker]

Ummm, no you clearly have a personal preference. No objectivity.

For a guy who has never, or barely ever, seen him play you have a very vocal opinion on Vorobyev.

You show a lot of confidence in a guy who went from full-time NHL player to full-time AHL the next season. Then back to the NHL the following year where he lost his PK spot to Torgo and Filp. By the playoffs he wasn't even playing center.

Laughton is 3 years older than Vorobyev. If Vorobyev is suffering a similar fate in 3 years I'll eat my hat.

Laughton scored .65 pts/game in his most recent AHL season with his most common linemate as Taylor Leier and big minute 1C duties from day 1.

Vorobyev just scored at .5 pts/game while starting low in the lineup, with limited minutes, and little production at the start. All the while having Fazleev as his most common linemate who finished very low in possession rankings this year. Even so, Vorobyev finished very high.

Go re-read his interview from a month or so ago. Misha could not speak english. He did not even have confidence to shoot the puck. This is a player who improved leaps and bounds as he grew even a little comfortable. What improvement has Laughton displayed?

By the end of the year we were seeing the real Vorobyev. Anyone who watched regularly saw he's a smart player, a legit playmaker, and has the chops to handle the defensive rigors of playing center. He is what a bottom/middle 6 center is supposed to look like.

Laughton is a forechecking, straight ahead, tunnel visioned forward. His skillset doesn't even lend itself to that of a center. He has no future at center in this organization. He's 24 years old and the GM is talking up Jordan Weal over him. A player who can barely crack the lineup and is the antithesis of what they look for in a center.

The only other level of play we have to compare the two is World Juniors and that's not even close. Misha showed up and produced. Laughton didn't. Even with the 'C' on his chest. Canada got eliminated in the quarterfinal. Russia was a shootout away from beating a beast USA team in the semifinal. A shootout where Misha buried one. Then went on to win bronze the next day. Obviously, the WJC experience isn't the be all, end all, but I bring it up as a rare data point they both share.

I don't know man. This really doesn't seem like a tough choice. You really just have to watch the games imo.

I've made it pretty clear I'm a big Laughton fan, even back when most gave up on him, so I'm a little biased here... but the types of examples you used here makes it seem like there's healthy amount of bias from you as well. I know you're a big Vorobyev fan, and that's fine, but these topics really don't help your argument at all.


- It doesn't make sense to mention things like Laughton being moved off the PK or being moved to wing when both of those are just Hakstol being stupid. It's not Laughton's fault he was replaced by inferior players (like Lehtera) by our incompetent coach. I'm sure you wouldn't consider undeserved demotions a legit argument against Sanheim, right?

- Bringing up their P/GP in the AHL doesn't really help your case either. There was a lot of discussion on here about Laughton's strange usage in LV when he was down there in 2016-2017. There was an obvious focus on improving his defense and lack of being used on the PP, despite being great there previously, so raw points don't really help the comparison too much. Sure, he played with better linemates at 5v5 than Vorobyev, but Vorobyev was given more chances on the PP. Resulting in 7 of his 29 points coming from the PP, compared to 2 of Laughtons 39. So, if we only look at non-PP scoring to be fair to both, the comparison changes to (Laughton - 0.62 P/GP) vs (Vorobyev - 0.38 P/GP). But really neither number there is a good representation of the ability of either player because both had quite a few factors (beyond their control) that held them back.

- The possibility of Weal playing over him isn't his fault either. He easily outplayed Weal this year, so if Weal gets any spot on the team, let alone on a higher line, it would be a mistake by management. Same as Hagg playing over Sanheim wouldn't be Sanheim's fault. It's undeserved and not something he can control.

- Each players WJC usage also adds a lot of context. Laughton was on the 4th line the entire time, Vorobyev on a scoring line. It's not as if they had equal usage but different results.

Anyways... I hope you don't take this as me taking shots at you or saying you don't know what you're talking about, because know you watch the Phantoms too. I just think the arguments for/against are flawed and unfair. I don't really care if you or anyone else wants one or the other at C next year. In fact, I'd be in favor of a lineup next year that looks like:
Giroux-Couts-TK
JVR-Patrick-Voracek
Lindblom-Frost?-Simmonds
Laughton-Vorobyev-Raffl

 

[Stizzle]

I've made it pretty clear I'm a big Laughton fan, even back when most gave up on him, so I'm a little biased here... but the types of examples you used here makes it seem like there's healthy amount of bias from you as well. I know you're a big Vorobyev fan, and that's fine, but these topics really don't help your argument at all.


- It doesn't make sense to mention things like Laughton being moved off the PK or being moved to wing when both of those are just Hakstol being stupid. It's not Laughton's fault he was replaced by inferior players (like Lehtera) by our incompetent coach. I'm sure you wouldn't consider undeserved demotions a legit argument against Sanheim, right?

- Bringing up their P/GP in the AHL doesn't really help your case either. There was a lot of discussion on here about Laughton's strange usage in LV when he was down there in 2016-2017. There was an obvious focus on improving his defense and lack of being used on the PP, despite being great there previously, so raw points don't really help the comparison too much. Sure, he played with better linemates at 5v5 than Vorobyev, but Vorobyev was given more chances on the PP. Resulting in 7 of his 29 points coming from the PP, compared to 2 of Laughtons 39. So, if we only look at non-PP scoring to be fair to both, the comparison changes to (Laughton - 0.62 P/GP) vs (Vorobyev - 0.38 P/GP). But really neither number there is a good representation of the ability of either player because both had quite a few factors (beyond their control) that held them back.

- The possibility of Weal playing over him isn't his fault either. He easily outplayed Weal this year, so if Weal gets any spot on the team, let alone on a higher line, it would be a mistake by management. Same as Hagg playing over Sanheim wouldn't be Sanheim's fault. It's undeserved and not something he can control.

- Each players WJC usage also adds a lot of context. Laughton was on the 4th line the entire time, Vorobyev on a scoring line. It's not as if they had equal usage but different results.

Anyways... I hope you don't take this as me taking shots at you or saying you don't know what you're talking about, because know you watch the Phantoms too. I just think the arguments for/against are flawed and unfair. I don't really care if you or anyone else wants one or the other at C next year. In fact, I'd be in favor of a lineup next year that looks like:
Giroux-Couts-TK
JVR-Patrick-Voracek
Lindblom-Frost?-Simmonds
Laughton-Vorobyev-Raffl

These are all pretty valid points. The only thing I want to correct, and it's really minor, is that Laughton played 3rd line WJC, not 4th. Again, minor.

I appreciate the detailed, reasoned response unlike the other guy. But it didn't really address the the root of either players style or possible value.

I keep saying Vorobyev is a natural center with all the qualities you'd expect to find. Do you think Laughton really is a natural center? Is my scouting report on him wrong?

 

[Striiker]

These are all pretty valid points. The only thing I want to correct, and it's really minor, is that Laughton played 3rd line WJC, not 4th. Again, minor.

I appreciate the detailed, reasoned response unlike the other guy. But it didn't really address the the root of either players style or possible value.

I keep saying Vorobyev is a natural center with all the qualities you'd expect to find. Do you think Laughton really is a natural center? Is my scouting report on him wrong?

Really? I could've sworn that Laughton and Leier were stapled to that 4th line for the entire WJC. Not saying you're wrong, just that I felt so sure.

And no, I don't think your scouting report is wrong. It just seems like I think Laughton is more capable at center than you do and you have a bit higher of an opinion of Vorobyev than I do. I have no problem with Laughton staying at C, but I will say I also have zero problem with him being on the wing, so long as the center replacing him isn't a clear downgrade, like Lehtera or Filppula were.

Like I said, I wasn't so much disagreeing with your conclusion that Vorobyev is more suited for center than Laughton (stylistically he is, although I don't know if I agree that he'd be better next season), it was just those specific points that I felt were a bit off.

As far as value goes... ehh... I think I'd personally have Laughton a little higher, but if you said that was me being biased I don't know if I could say you're definitely wrong. I think both of their ceilings are severely limited by the guys above them, but I was really happy with how Laughton used his speed and shot last year, despite his horrific linemates. 10 goals with his usage isn't too shabby and if he gets real linemates I think he could do more.

 

[Stizzle]

Really? I could've sworn that Laughton and Leier were stapled to that 4th line for the entire WJC. Not saying you're wrong, just that I felt so sure.

And no, I don't think your scouting report is wrong. It just seems like I think Laughton is more capable at center than you do and you have a bit higher of an opinion of Vorobyev than I do. I have no problem with Laughton staying at C, but I will say I also have zero problem with him being on the wing, so long as the center replacing him isn't a clear downgrade, like Lehtera or Filppula were.

Like I said, I wasn't so much disagreeing with your conclusion that Vorobyev is more suited for center than Laughton (stylistically he is, although I don't know if I agree that he'd be better next season), it was just those specific points that I felt were a bit off.

As far as value goes... ehh... I think I'd personally have Laughton a little higher, but if you said that was me being biased I don't know if I could say you're definitely wrong. I think both of their ceilings are severely limited by the guys above them, but I was really happy with how Laughton used his speed and shot last year, despite his horrific linemates. 10 goals with his usage isn't too shabby and if he gets real linemates I think he could do more.

I'm pretty sure Laughton and Leier were a staple as a PK duo in the WJC but not 5v5. At 5v5 I recall Leier rotating with someone (Hudon??) on a line with Drouin and Mantha. Laughton, I think(?), was with Reinhart, maybe?

Good post. It's all fine. Personally, I do think Vorobyev would be better next season. And yeah, clearly I'm higher on Voro than pretty much everyone.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Don't forget this guy

YO I loved this guy back in the day. I remember I made a THOR helmet out of aluminum foil to one of the WSH-PHI games back during this series.

 

[deadhead]

Laughton's a great center, except for his complete lack of play making skills or defense in his own D-zone.
He's good at one thing, forechecking in the O-zone, and is a better fit at LW, where he can use his speed and shot and a real center can cover for him.
If he's our 3C, we're as bad off as with Filppula.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

We actually got worse at the PK last year under his data.

 

[Magua]

We actually got worse at the PK last year under his data.

Yeah but what about the final dozen games. We know what you do in the final dozen games is the better indicator of future success.

 

[Winston Wolf]

The 16th ranked PP would also take a hit, as they were tied for third most SH goals given up in the league. It's always been bizarre to me that this isn't factored into special teams rankings.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Yeah but what about the final dozen games. We know what you do in the final dozen games is the better indicator of future success.

They’ve been pretty much making up their own terms as they go along to ignore the elephant in the room. They pretty much chalked it up to Mason the years before this past year. Then this year they basically threw away an entire year sample of a horrid PK just because they played average at best in a very small sample to close the year out. When the PK sucks again next year (like it has every year since Hakstol & Lappy have been together) to no one but their surpise I wonder what it will be then?

 

[Domino666]

They’ve been pretty much making up their own terms as they go along to ignore the elephant in the room. They pretty much chalked it up to Mason the years before this past year. Then this year they basically threw away an entire year sample of a horrid PK just because they played average at best in a very small sample to close the year out. When the PK sucks again next year (like it has every year since Hakstol & Lappy have been together) to no one but their surpise I wonder what it will be then?

It’ll be Sanheim’s fault, with Hack crying to Hexy how they should have never let his son Chris go

 

[Psuhockey]

They’ve been pretty much making up their own terms as they go along to ignore the elephant in the room. They pretty much chalked it up to Mason the years before this past year. Then this year they basically threw away an entire year sample of a horrid PK just because they played average at best in a very small sample to close the year out. When the PK sucks again next year (like it has every year since Hakstol & Lappy have been together) to no one but their surpise I wonder what it will be then?

It will be blamed on youth. That’s the only excuse they have left.

My prediction for this upcoming season is that it will pretty much mirror last season. The Flyers will come out aggressive and productive offensively but the goalies and penalty kill will crap the bed. So Hakstol will turtle and go grind it out with veterans and try to just get games to overtime.

 

[CS]

Wow, great reply. You literally wrote nothing of substance about either player. Not one sentence. I gave a fairly detailed retort on each. Yet, my reply is one of a child? Cool.

What are these upsides of the other player that I failed so miserably to mention? I'd love to hear, ya know, actual hockey talk. Kind of like I gave when you challenged the board for a response.

It was like 10 at night, I'd just worked 9 hours, and arrived home to someone going off about how I apparently don't watch enough hockey. Excuse me for not elaborating.

 

[CS]

Laughton's a great center, except for his complete lack of play making skills or defense in his own D-zone.
He's good at one thing, forechecking in the O-zone, and is a better fit at LW, where he can use his speed and shot and a real center can cover for him.
If he's our 3C, we're as bad off as with Filppula.

I agree he'd be a better fit for wing, and eventually maybe Vorobyev does end up as a better NHL center, or even player. That's certainly not out of the question.

The concern here is the lack of a real 3C option. Assuming Frost doesn't make it, your battle is essentially between Weal and Laughton at that spot. I'd put Laughton right now in our top 9, but he's literally the 9th player in our top 9.

It would be ideal for him to sit on the 4th line LW. Honestly, a 4th line of Laughton - Vorobyev - Raffl would be amazing, but that really does require Frost making the team, because I do not want Weal's ineptitude anywhere near that 3C spot.

But

Lindblom - Laughton - Simmonds
Raffl - Weal/Vorobyev - Weal/NAK

Seems much better than

Lindblom - Weal - Simmonds
Laughton - Vorobyev - Raffl

 

[sa cyred]

Really? I could've sworn that Laughton and Leier were stapled to that 4th line for the entire WJC. Not saying you're wrong, just that I felt so sure.

And no, I don't think your scouting report is wrong. It just seems like I think Laughton is more capable at center than you do and you have a bit higher of an opinion of Vorobyev than I do. I have no problem with Laughton staying at C, but I will say I also have zero problem with him being on the wing, so long as the center replacing him isn't a clear downgrade, like Lehtera or Filppula were.

Like I said, I wasn't so much disagreeing with your conclusion that Vorobyev is more suited for center than Laughton (stylistically he is, although I don't know if I agree that he'd be better next season), it was just those specific points that I felt were a bit off.

As far as value goes... ehh... I think I'd personally have Laughton a little higher, but if you said that was me being biased I don't know if I could say you're definitely wrong. I think both of their ceilings are severely limited by the guys above them, but I was really happy with how Laughton used his speed and shot last year, despite his horrific linemates. 10 goals with his usage isn't too shabby and if he gets real linemates I think he could do more.

Honest question here. What about Laughton really makes you like him? Not a shot at you or Laughton but when I’ve watched him play, I never came away with a “I’m glad we have him because of “this”, “this”, and “this”. I definitely think Stizzle hit his faults and they were the exact same thing I saw. Very narrow minded offensively, ok defensively. He seems to bring some attitude and plays hard but this wanes at times also. I guess I never saw something from Laughton that made me say we need him in our lineup (well obviously I would have him over guys like Lehtera)

 

[CS]

Honest question here. What about Laughton really makes you like him? Not a shot at you or Laughton but when I’ve watched him play, I never came away with a “I’m glad we have him because of “this”, “this”, and “this”. I definitely think Stizzle hit his faults and they were the exact same thing I saw. Very narrow minded offensively, ok defensively. He seems to bring some attitude and plays hard but this wanes at times also. I guess I never saw something from Laughton that made me say we need him in our lineup (well obviously I would have him over guys like Lehtera)

I think a lot of it is holdover from when he played in juniors. He was basically Mike effing Richards incarnate. When he got to the AHL, he looked comfortable and managed the level of play really well. He was promoted to the NHL where most thought he'd handle a bottom six role with ease.

He struggled though. Was demoted. Came back. Performed okay. Vanished at times. He never really cemented himself. His defense was just alright, not at the level it projected to be.

The big thing now is that Laughton seems to have woken up a little at the end of the year. Hextall mentioned something somewhere recently (I can't remember) about them being unhappy with the way Laughton was conducting himself (I think a few members of this board guessed something like alcohol or similar). But Hextall corrected that he was happy with Laughton now.

If Laughton is just starting to play the way he was originally projected, this could go very well for the Flyers. I like him better at wing because I agree, his hockey IQ is not as good as many options at center, including Vorobyev. But his speed and positioning make him a great 3rd/4th line winger to float the lineup.

 

[Striiker]

Honest question here. What about Laughton really makes you like him? Not a shot at you or Laughton but when I’ve watched him play, I never came away with a “I’m glad we have him because of “this”, “this”, and “this”. I definitely think Stizzle hit his faults and they were the exact same thing I saw. Very narrow minded offensively, ok defensively. He seems to bring some attitude and plays hard but this wanes at times also. I guess I never saw something from Laughton that made me say we need him in our lineup (well obviously I would have him over guys like Lehtera)

Yeah, no problem.

Stuff like this:




I really value his shooting. Who else on the team can score like that? Konecny. Giroux, sometimes. But it's unique enough that I think it's worth something to us, especially when paired with his above average skating. Plus, remember back when he was PKing with Giroux? They looked just like the old Richards-Giroux pair that was so dangerous shorthanded. It felt like they created more scoring chances than they allowed on the PK.