KingTrouty
Allons!
You see redundancy with Martinez and the other two? How so? Martinez is a proven, solid D. The other two, not at all. Not grasping this take, John, with respect, bro.
Could you expound further?
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Could you expound further?
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
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KingTrouty
Allons!
I disagree about skill set. AMart is a jack of all trades, can be deployed in 3v3, PK, defensive zone. Fantenberg, well we dont know enough yet. Same with LaDue, altho it appears he has more offensive flair to his game, as opposed to the all-around game that Martinez brings.
Respectfully disagree, brother.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
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I'm not talking about how good they are. I'm talking about the type. Vilardi and Kopitar might be similar types but one is obviously better than the other right now.
Reaper45
Registered User
They're in essence smallish soft puck movers. How many of those do you need on one team?
KingTrouty
Allons!
I'm talking about types, too. I thought I plainly explained that. I dont see the same comparison of Vilardi/Kopi as Amart/Fantenburg/Ladue.
KingTrouty
Allons!
Well, one of those three isn't like the other.
Am I seriously having this discussion right now?
Y'all are saying Martinez is in the same mold as Fantenberg and LaDue.
I'm lost.
KingTrouty
Allons!
IM not saying I’m right, and I respect your guys’ opinion, I’m just having a tough one with this take.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
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Yes.
They all have the same upside. Difference is Martinez has actually achieved that upside while the other two haven't.
KingTrouty
Allons!
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
One can only hope Fantenberg and/or LaDue are ever as good as Martinez is defensively. Looks like he’s being underrated here again. The guy led the team in blocked shots and played in all situations and top 4 minutes. The Kings would be fortunate if LaDue turns into that type of dman.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
Adrian Kempe hanging out with Ivan Drago.
Kingspiracy
Registered User
- Nov 13, 2006
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Drago to LA e4. We've already signed one 'baddie' russian, im not sure the rest the league could handle us with another 'baddie' "russian".
I wonder if kovalchuk likes rocky movies.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
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Any time you draft a player in the mid rounds or sign them as an UDFA you hope they turn out like Amart. I'm not underrating him by saying he and Fantenberg/LaDue are of the same ilk.
I've defended Martinez many times and said he's worth a 1st round draft pick in any trade (many around here don't think he is).
KingTrouty
Allons!
Your comp (especially to LaDue) is way off, imo, John. In skill and play type. LaDue is, so far as we seen, a high upside offense with a ceiling of (hopefully) adequate D. Martinez is already above average postionally, boards, PK, 3v3, smarts/IQ... all-around game. A proven all-situations #4.. Fantenberg has showed some flashes, and of the two, he gets my vote as being the closest to Martinez, but with the lowest ceiling, and a “poor man’s” Martinez if he reaches his potential, imo. Some of you fell in love with him because of last year’s playoffs where he played good hockey. But he is just a guy thus far. Martinez and he — it’s still a stretch to comp — because he’s hasn’t sustained or shown any regularity at the position to deserve such, other than flash a little in the Vegas series and once or twice towards the end of the year. Just a guy. A soaking-wet-potential #6.
I think LaDue might have a higher ceiling than AMart, just because I’m still high on the kid. But this is his last year to show it. I still see zero semblance in similarity, even if he reaches his peak. A poor man’s Niedermeyer if we hit the jackpot and he develops right.
Fantenberg, while the closest to Martinez of the two, due to seemingly being more adept to all situations, is the furthest away from being an every day regular.
I am so lost on these three being compared together, outside of size. And, John, that’s a pretty large reach to correlate similarity (size). You have yet to say what attributes make these three similar players, other than size (unless it missed me/“ceiling” isn’t an attribute).
Also, in Fantenberg wettest dreams does he have Martinez’s upside.
With respect, bro. I just can’t take this anymore.
And absolutely, this board, historically, has been pathetically woeful at gauging AMart’s trade value. Pathetically woeful.
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johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
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High offensive upside? No. Decent offensive upside? Yes.
What do you mean "already?" He's played nearly 500 NHL games. We hope LaDue/Fantenberg can be like Amart one day. Statistically speaking it's unlikely because very few players go on to reach their NHL upside like Martinez has.
All thee are mobile, similarly sized defensemen with similar upside. All have produced similarly in the only league in which they're comparable.
AHL points per game:
Martinez: .47
LaDue: .47
Fantenberg: .52
You keep comparing where Martinez is at to where LaDue/Fantenberg are at. Yes Martinez is a better player and further along in his career. That doesn't mean he's not of the same ilk as the other two.
KingTrouty
Allons!
I meant “already” by exactly what you said, he’s played 500 games. You then contradict your whole argument, kinda.
Next, you saying “decent” offensive upside to my “high” carries equal weight. We just don’t know. My take is high, ~10 goals/40pts. That’s high for me. Maybe I should have been more specific. His offensive upside/ceiling is higher than Martinez, but that’s where it ends, so far as I have seen.
You compared Martinez to Fantenberg and LaDue, I want to know SPECIFICALLY why you got there? Ergo, playing style, brother. I went there some comparing (lightly) Fantenberg to Martinez. But it’s such a stretch at this point. That’s why I’m perplexed.
Am I just nuts? Blind? A fool? Way off? A noob? Lay it on me, John.
Reaper45
Registered User
It's no more of a stretch than comparing Muzzin and Phaneuf. Mobile (at one point for Phaneuf at least), big bodied physical defensemen. I understand it completely.
KingTrouty
Allons!
Except Phaneuf and Muzzin have established their styles, Fantenberg and LaDue are still unknowns, and it’s a stretch, imo, to predict what “mold” the latter two even are. Let alone comp them to Martinez. I’m doing so to stimulate debate, but I’m still lost.
I’ll circle back to the Vilardi/Kopitar comment for the sake of debate... Vilardi has shown skill/style similar to Kopi. Fantenberg and LaDue as comps to Martinez is missing me
And no one can tell me why Fant and LaDue are good comps to AMart, aside from size and upside. There is zero evidence either of these two will touch a match to AMart. Let alone comp’ing them to him.
Neither of the two have shown ANY similarity to Martinez.
Zero. Zilch. Imo.
Playing styles, where are they similar?
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KingTrouty
Allons!
LaDue has shown himself as a specialist offensive D thus far. Hoping for the kid. Have faith in the kid. Hoping he rounds out his game.
Fantenberg has shown us very little outside of some high minute PO hockey. We were cringing when he was announced as the replacement to Muzzin. Before that, half this fan base was done with him. We were much higher on Folin throughout the year, hell, even Forbort /tangent
Where have you seen LaDue and Fantenberg flash the very specific skill that Martinez possesses, Sol? When has these two players flashed that “two way” potential?
And again, own me, shrek me, give it to me. I want to learn
KingTrouty
Allons!
You know what, I bow out of this particular debate, and that is rare.
You Kings fans, in majority numbers in this thread, telling me that Fantenberg and LaDue are similar and redundant to Martinez, or have similar upside. Well, I don’t see it. Nor have I been given an explanation as to how they are stylistically similar with any scintilla of backing explanation.
I guess it just is? Like gravity? Or my sexiness.
I’m clearly in the minority. Don’t agree. I guess we’ll see. Rooting for our boys, I hope y’all are right. Don’t mind eating crow.
You Kings fans, in majority numbers in this thread, telling me that Fantenberg and LaDue are similar and redundant to Martinez, or have similar upside. Well, I don’t see it. Nor have I been given an explanation as to how they are stylistically similar with any scintilla of backing explanation.
I guess it just is? Like gravity? Or my sexiness.
I’m clearly in the minority. Don’t agree. I guess we’ll see. Rooting for our boys, I hope y’all are right. Don’t mind eating crow.
Reaper45
Registered User
I think you're far too hung up on exact playing styles. They're all similar body types who play close enough approximations of each others games where it's not a stretch to compare or lump them into one category, whatever you want to call it. LaDue and Fantenberg aren't going to suddenly become a mobile physical hybrid defenseman ala Muzzin/Phaneuf and they're not going to be a defensive specialist like Forbort, so who on the Kings blue line do they compare to the most/easiest? Are they carbon copies of Martinez? No. Are they close enough in a wide variety of areas? Yes absolutely.
KingTrouty
Allons!
Phaneuf is mobile?
This whole argument centers around comp’ing AMart to Fantenberg and LaDue.
Body types have nothing to do with playing style.
They don’t play similar styles at all. At the very least, we’re jumping out on a limb to say so. We don’t have enough yet to proclaim such, imo. The two younger players are non-established NHL’ers, minus a few glimpses of LaDue’s scoring prowess, thus I have a tough time comparing them to a bonafide established D in Martinez.
Nothing, nothing like Martinez.
Am I in the twilight zone?
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