Post-Game Talk: 2017-18 Around the League Thread | Luca Sbisa, Stanley Cup Goat

[Pip]

I think we have enough info from his almost 500 game career to conclude that Sbisa is awful.

 

[MS]

I think we have enough info from his almost 500 game career to conclude that Sbisa is awful.

Oh, absolutely. He's dragging around an absurdly unsustainable PDO right now.

My point is just that using Rel Corsi to determine anything without context is useless.

 

[Addison Rae]

Rel Corsi is literally the worst stat in the entire world.

I haven't seen enough Vegas games to accurately comment on how Sbisa is playing, but that stat does nothing to take into account role/usage (he has the toughest d-zone starts on the team) and actually tends to measure the quality of a player's teammates more than their own play.

Getting killed in hard deployment doesn’t make you a good player.

He’s also 2nd last on the Knights in XGF% @Black Noise. He’s not a good player, at all.

 

[geebaan]

Agreed, but that poster has been pumping his tires since 2014 and is now doing the same thing with Gudbranson.

Maybe he’s Jim Benning...

It’s amazing that somehow I’m a hur dur Benning hater about Sbisa, but literally 7 other people instantly joined in to use solid evidence as to why he’s bad. Amazing stuff.

 

[DL44]

Funny definition of 'solid evidence'.

 

[Black Noise]

Funny definition of 'solid evidence'.

You haven't provided anything to show he's a good defenceman, I'd like to see some please.

The stats and eye test say he sucks. Show me what doesn't.

 

[DL44]

You haven't provided anything to show he's a good defenceman, I'd like to see some please.

The stats and eye test say he sucks. Show me what doesn't.

Care to show me any other top 2-3 regular season team in the history of the league that has their worst dman playing top mins? Vs #1 lines? That is trusted to start shift after shift in the dzone?

Maybe just maybe he actually isnt their worst dman.
Or you can continue to quote your one stat without any context whatssoever.

Final suggestion... Watch him play in Vegas. He's good... building on his play from his final season here... where he actually played well. Or are we pretending now that never happened.
Here's where i tap out of this discussion...

Ill look forward to your Gudbranson reaction posts for the next 3 yrs.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

I've watched Sbisa play lots this year. He's the same trash player he's always been. Buddy is out to lunch

lol sbisa just scored. but still

 

[DL44]

I've watched Sbisa play lots this year. He's the same trash player he's always been. Buddy is out to lunch

lol sbisa just scored. but still

Ill watch the 1st period of that game after this gold medal match.

And grow up with calling players trash. Makes you a trash poster.

 

[DL44]

Vegas..
Sbisa... got him matching the Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik line backing the Perron line to start.. and for a 2nd shift as well... 3rd vs Backlund with the Karlsson line.. GOAL - playing with lead now... 4th on the fly was vs the Stajan line backing 24 and 25.. whoever tf they are...
After commercial... Sbisa v Backlund again backing Karlsson line.
On the fly change.. quick whistle.
At the set, Sbisa v Jankowski line backing 24 and 25.. (10 mins in.. zero scoring changes against.. 0 shots against as well)...
Learned 24-25 are with Nosek.. ill call it the Nosek line.
On the fly Sbisa v Gaudreau line.. backing Perron line. Then next Sbisa v Bennett line backing Karlsson line.
Icing call on Vegas (X3) Sbisa on (not his icings)... v Gaudreau line backing Karlsson.
Flames tie.. No, Sbisa wasn't on.
Center ice faceoff Sbisa on backing Perron line v Bennett line.
1:30 left now.. Sbisa v Backlund line backing the Eakin line...

CLEAN PERIOD for Sbisa.. almost perfect period actually.

Unless he did something outrageous in the 2nd... considering Sbisa got 2 points on his slapshots in the 3rd.... you are LYING @Hollywood Burrows
Question is Why?
I think the answer is obvious.

Im going to bed. You guys are ridiculous.

 

[Josepho]

this narrative is really being pushed eh

 

[Melvin]

this narrative is really being pushed eh

It's one guy who thinks sbisa and Gudbranson are better than tanev and didn't think Boeser would be good...

 

[DL44]

It's one guy who thinks sbisa and Gudbranson are better than tanevA and didn't think Boeser would be good...

Resort to flat out lies now.. nice.
Well we know what step you are on in the "internet discussion manual"..

Losing an internet discussion? attempt to slander, lie, discredit poster to distract away from point.

Wish i could twist or a bastardize a take you've had in the past... but you're not a memorable poster.

 

[Melvin]

Resort to flat out lies now.. nice.
Well we know what step you are on in the "internet discussion manual"..

Losing an internet discussion? attempt to slander, lie, discredit poster to distract away from point.

Wish i could twist or a bastardize a take you've had in the past... but you're not a memorable poster.

That's not a very nice thing to say.

Since you don't believe in statistics, you open the door to criticism of your scouting ability. What else do we have to go on? We are supposed to believe sbisa is doing well because you say so? Then I have no choice but to examine your ability to scout.

I'm not really sure what internet discussion you think I am "losing" or what you consider a lie. What point am I distracting people from?

As for myself, I don't consider myself a scout and try not to give outlandish opinions based solely on what I see. Except for maybe with goober. If you want to criticise my scouting ability go right ahead, it sucks. That's why I try to augment it with data.

The difference between you and I is that I am not trying to convince anyone that a shitty player is actually good because I watched him and I have an amazing ability to scout nhl talent that nobody else has.

As far as me being a liar goes, tell me what you think I am lying about and I will provide the evidence.

 

[DL44]

^so much wrong with your post.

-Dont know what absurd lengths i go to defend Gudbranson. And if you think ive said anything absurd in pointing out facts for Sbisa... do tell.
-why are you phrasing it like i prefer Gudbranson or Sbisa over Tanev.. or that im somehow Tanev vs the others? or clumping Sbisa and Gudbranson together? They're all separate topics.
-i was low on Boeser? No. I was apprehensive about his skating... and wanted to see it vs NHL caliber players. And i wasnt the only one.
-I zero issue with stats. I love stats. Im the one that did the stats thread here for yrs.
I just see how people abuse them and use various numbers without knowing what the relevance is or context. No problem with the data.. there is big problem with people's interpretation of data with zero context or measure or awareness of relevancy.

- in terms of the 'losing' comment.. i mixed you up with black noise when you came with your nonsense lying about me stating Sbisa was better than Tanev or that Gudbranson was better that Tanev. Sorry.

 

[Melvin]

Don't like to divide and conquer but these are very much disparate points so apologies in advance.

^so much wrong with your post.

-Dont know what absurd lengths i go to defend Gudbranson. And if you think ive said anything absurd in pointing out facts for Sbisa... do tell.
-why are you phrasing it like i prefer Gudbranson or Sbisa over Tanev.. or that im somehow Tanev vs the others? or clumping Sbisa and Gudbranson together? They're all separate topics.

Because I think it's relevant to your ability to assess talent. When you are saying that Sbisa is playing well, I have to remember that you ranked him ahead of Tanev at one point, so I am skeptical of your scouting ability.

-i was low on Boeser? No. I was apprehensive about his skating... and wanted to see it vs NHL caliber players. And i wasnt the only one.

You took it pretty far, at one point ridiculing people who thought he was better than Virtanen and saying stuff like

... the fact OP thinks Boeser is a better offensive prospect than Virtanen just blows my mind.

Anyone who thinks that will be deeply embarrassed they believed that 2-3 yrs from now.

Glad it's documented tho.. heh heh..

Glad indeed! Do you still believe Virtanen is a better offensive player than Boeser? Just want to be clear.

Sorry to be a dick and posting links but given that you expressedly posted about "documenting" the evidence I found it amusing. The point isn't to "slander" you, the point is to humble your scouting a little bit, so maybe you understand why we don't take you at your word just because you "watched him play last night."

-I zero issue with stats. I love stats. Im the one that did the stats thread here for yrs. I just see how people abuse them and use various numbers without knowing what the relevance is or context. No problem with the data.. there is big problem with people's interpretation of data with zero context or measure or awareness of relevancy.

You love the most basic traditional stats possible. Any context-based metrics you dismiss out of hand. Even when I tried to point out to you some pretty basic numbers showing that Tanev's even-strength scoring is pretty good, you ridiculed me. Don't make me find the post; it was not that long ago.

So I'm not allowed to post any stats other than the most basic, context-less ones, and I am not allowed to criticize your ability to scout, so how else can I argue against your points of "I watched Sbisa and he played good." Tell me what arguments you will accept. Your point about context is valid, but ironic. You like posting how many points someone has but don't care about something like how many points they have at even strength, which adds context.

- in terms of the 'losing' comment.. i mixed you up with black noise when you came with your nonsense lying about me stating Sbisa was better than Tanev or that Gudbranson was better that Tanev. Sorry.

No worries.

 

[Melvin]

The Boeser vs Virtanen thread, by the way, is a really fun read, and not just to poke fun at DL44. If ever you wanted to see how quickly posts can age and perceptions of prospects can change, have a go through it. And yeah I know it's easy for me to say since I'm not there. I say a lot of dumb shit too, no worry about that.

It should be a reminder not to bank too heavily on today's opinions of our current slate of prospects. Prospects are called prospects for a reason.

 

[opendoor]

I can't believe people were so high on Virtanen after his 13 point rookie season. Of the 99 U20 forwards to play 50+ games in the NHL since 2000, Virtanen's production was 95th.

Really goes to show how people overvalue the team's prospects despite the evidence staring at them in the face.

And man, that comment about Nashville wishing they had Virtanen instead of Forsberg for the playoffs...

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I can't believe people were so high on Virtanen after his 13 point rookie season. Of the 99 U20 forwards to play 50+ games in the NHL since 2000, Virtanen's production was 95th.

Really goes to show how people overvalue the team's prospects despite the evidence staring at them in the face.

And man, that comment about Nashville wishing they had Virtanen instead of Forsberg for the playoffs...

Chris Krieder seems like a dream now

 

[DL44]

The Boeser vs Virtanen thread, by the way, is a really fun read, and not just to poke fun at DL44. If ever you wanted to see how quickly posts can age and perceptions of prospects can change, have a go through it. And yeah I know it's easy for me to say since I'm not there. I say a lot of dumb **** too, no worry about that.

It should be a reminder not to bank too heavily on today's opinions of our current slate of prospects. Prospects are called prospects for a reason.

Context of that thread: May '16 : Virtanen coming off a very good post-World Jr finish to his season ... Boeser a sick NCAA season, but poor World Jr's.

I ridiculed no one... I scoffed at the lopsidedness of the poll result.. There's one post that I completely agreed with... I had nothing detrimental to say about Boeser. I don't see anywhere in that thread the quote you have attributed to me... went thru it twice. Edit... saw the other link. - Should be a rule that you don't quote me on late night posts past midnight - those are usually alcohol fueled. I have to eat it on that one... outta my regular character - but in line with my post midnight one. (i even said gnite later in the exchange, jeez)


But I don't see where I had Sbisa ranked ahead of Tanev as a dmen in the other link you posted. The link you posted was me talking up Tryamkin.

I have zero issue with context-based metrics (they all are actually)... I have issue when people ignore the context of said context-based numbers. But yes... I do generally prefer Raw numbers... Afterall, the raw numbers are the numbers used to plug into the formulas attempting to tell a specific story.
But i fully HATE virtually all /60 stats because it falsely assumes a linear relationship between performance and toi.

As for my perception of Virtanen and Boeser at the end of 15-16 season was best encapsulated by this post:

Virtanen is a sure fire NHLer. I have not seen a 19 year old dominate physically like that since Lindros, it was unreal. Still has a lot to learn and he's going to take some time, probably more than most are patient enough for, but I enjoyed watching him a ton this past season and saw a lot of growth. Don't for the life of me understand why anyone would be down on him, especially so early. I don't know if he'll ever produce to the level that people expect but he is going to be invaluable because of the way he plays with speed and strength, he will drive his line like Hall does.

Boeser has the IQ and skill but his physical tools are what may hold him back. Another year in college is exactly what he needs, I will be curious to see how he stacks up to NHL competition. Less time, less space and much more demanding physically. Really don't feel like people appreciate what a freak Virtanen is.

So if someone forced me to bet money, I would pick Virtanen, seems like the safer wager.

Boeser has answered those questions beautifully.
I still think Virtanen will be a beast of a player.... I'm still looking very forward to his prime.

 

[Melvin]

Should be a rule that you don't quote me on late night posts past midnight - those are usually alcohol fueled. I have to eat it on that one... outta my regular character - but in line with my post midnight one. (i even said gnitelater in the exchange, jeez)

Haaa fair enough. I could say the same thing. Except replace midnight with like...9pm

 

[Chairman Maouth]

 

[Ace of Hades]

Grabner goes to the devils. Pretty even trade all around.

 

[Black Noise]

Grabner goes to the devils. Pretty even trade all around.

2nd round for a guy with 18 non empty net goals and 6 assists.

Market has been set for Vanek, lets see if they can pull it off.

 

[Melvin]

2nd round for a guy with 18 non empty net goals and 6 assists.

Market has been set for Vanek, lets see if they can pull it off.

It is the first ever trade between the rangers and the devils. That is kinda interesting