World Cup: 2016 World Cup — Team North America

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You need to remember that a tournament doesn't need a goalie which makes an elite goalie career. There are plenty of goalies outside NHL which are good enough for international tournament and have capability to play those few needed games even at elite level. In same way an elite goalie can perform poorly in single tournament.
I agree with this sentiment too.


However, we should also keep in mind what made this a newspiece in the first place. It's not that people in general don't trust the YoungGunz's goaltending.

It's that said team's management apparently don't trust it either.
 
Ya I watched, but see JackSlater's post a little earlier re: goaltenders who played well at the WHC... not a particularly strong list, so, your argument fails... as do all your arguments in defense of this gong show.

the thing is that he played well last season in the AHL as well and is killing it again this year with a 5-1 record 2.12 and a .939 Save %, so don't let the facts get in the way of your argument there.

and for a guy who quoted upthread,

That's why this tournament is not worth watching...not even worth checking in on nhl.com in the mornings to check out the previous night's scores and game highlights.

I'll be watching baseball in September 2016. Hopefully it will be another Blue Jays pennant drive...but if it's not, I still won't be watching this NHL pre-season gimmick of a gong show.

You sure seem to be spending alot of time to comment on something you don't seem to care about.

Why is that?
 
You need to remember that a tournament doesn't need a goalie which makes an elite goalie career. There are plenty of goalies outside NHL which are good enough for international tournament and have capability to play those few needed games even at elite level. In same way an elite goalie can perform poorly in single tournament.

This may be the only thing I agree on with Hardyvan123.

I'd buy that argument for any established, experienced and professional goaltender playing on a team with established, competent defenders and is well coached with ample time to prepare. for this U24 team, inexperienced goaltenders with young inexperienced defenders on a team with little time to prepare, a few weeks?? sorry, in my book that's a recipe for blowouts. I wouldn't buy Hardycan123's argument any more than I'd buy swamp land in Louisiana.
 
the thing is that he played well last season in the AHL as well and is killing it again this year with a 5-1 record 2.12 and a .939 Save %, so don't let the facts get in the way of your argument there.

and for a guy who quoted upthread,



You sure seem to be spending alot of time to comment on something you don't seem to care about.

Why is that?


As I said all along, from the day I got wind of the proposed format, I hate it and I do not plan on watching it; but I'll have fun criticizing it right up to puck drop... at which point I'll just ignore the damn thing, gong show...
 
I'd buy that argument for any established, experienced and professional goaltender playing on a team with established, competent defenders and is well coached with ample time to prepare. for this U24 team, inexperienced goaltenders with young inexperienced defenders on a team with little time to prepare, a few weeks?? sorry, in my book that's a recipe for blowouts. I wouldn't buy Hardycan123's argument any more than I'd buy swamp land in Louisiana.

Yes an AHL goaltender behind a motivated, cohesive, experienced team is one thing. I don't exactly trust "Hellenbuck" behind a team with questionable motivation, no known cohesion and limited experience. Neither does the GM of his own team, for that matter.
 
Yes an AHL goaltender behind a motivated, cohesive, experienced team is one thing. I don't exactly trust "Hellenbuck" behind a team with questionable motivation, no known cohesion and limited experience. Neither does the GM of his own team, for that matter.

Ya, I know I spelled his name wrong... just wasn't important enough to me to invest the extra 5 seconds of my time to do a google. If I were a fan of this ridiculous format and team, then I would have bothered to do a google...but since I don't, I didn't. )
 
I'd buy that argument for any established, experienced and professional goaltender playing on a team with established, competent defenders and is well coached with ample time to prepare. for this U24 team, inexperienced goaltenders with young inexperienced defenders on a team with little time to prepare, a few weeks?? sorry, in my book that's a recipe for blowouts. I wouldn't buy Hardycan123's argument any more than I'd buy swamp land in Louisiana.

you don't need to buy my argument look at the facts.

seth jones 2 years ago won the best Dman award at the WHC, that's experience right?

Hellebuyck has an impressive resume including last year at the WHC.

Eichel and McDavid are 2 very good young players, but you might know that right?

Larkin impressed at the WHC last year and will have a successful NHL season under his belt.

Trouba in 13-14 played 23 MPG at the WHC.

Murray has played at one as well, both he and Morgan Reilly will no doubt play this year for Canada, after establishing themselves as #1 Dmen on their respective teams.

but go on right ahead and keep making excuses based less on reality and more on whatever it is you are using.
 
Yes an AHL goaltender behind a motivated, cohesive, experienced team is one thing. I don't exactly trust "Hellenbuck" behind a team with questionable motivation, no known cohesion and limited experience. Neither does the GM of his own team, for that matter.

Yes Chiarelli was an esteemed GM in the NHL before his latest blunder right?

2 words there, Matt Barzal.

We have also seen international top level teams "give up" in tournament games yet this is only going to apply to the 2 non national teams in this tournament as stated by all those that oppose them?

Team white for Canada won the U17 tournament just this past week (with 2 other Canadian entries, not even based on geography), did anyone see less effort by any of those players?

I get the hate (in this thread and others for the tournament format) and also understand that hatred can make one blind.
 
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As I said all along, from the day I got wind of the proposed format, I hate it and I do not plan on watching it; but I'll have fun criticizing it right up to puck drop... at which point I'll just ignore the damn thing, gong show...

Is that a promise?

So when the U23 and rest of Europe team possibly do better than pundits here expect we won't hear then "hey man I guess we got it wrong" right?

My bet is that teams will pull their foot off the gas and there will be 60 MPG of boredom in the 2018 Olympics in the South Korea games but hey that's another thread.

But wait I forgot national teams always try their best right?:sarcasm:
 
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Why is everyone putting Eichel on the wing? He's the strongest player on the team, which is huge in defending guys like Malkin and Crosby, and has been dominant on faceoffs. If anything, you slide McDavid on to his wing.

And all due respect to the Monahans and MacKinnons of the world, Eichel and McDavid are the two best players on this team already, they aren't getting pushed down the lineup for lesser talents.
 
So when the U23 and rest of Europe team possibly do better than pundits here expect we won't hear then "hey man I guess we got it wrong" right?

The "parity" they may or may not bring to the event (which even the kiddie squad management is doubting) isn't the point. Putting the Montreal Canadiens in the World Cup might introduce parity but they still wouldn't belong there.

The two joke teams could meet in the final and the event will still be a complete farce. Even more so in fact.
 
Is that a promise?

So when the U23 and rest of Europe team possibly do better than pundits here expect we won't hear then "hey man I guess we got it wrong" right?

My bet is that teams will pull their foot off the gas and there will be 60 MPG of boredom in the 2018 Olympics in the South Korea games but hey that's another thread.

But wait I forgot national teams always try their best right?:sarcasm:

you can take it to the bank. Even if I am proven to be right and these gimmicky teams get trounced by lopsided scores and this tournament fails in every aspect, from competitive balance to entertainment value, to commercial success, whatever this gong show ends up being or not being, once the puck drops it will be completely ignored by me. I'm just going to enjoy trashing it until then. So, buckle up!
 
Yes Chiarelli was an esteemed GM in the NHL before his latest blunder right?

2 words there, Matt Barzal.

Yes, he is an esteemed GM. I know that you watch the NHL "like a scout" but I'm willing to bet that Chiarelli knows more about the players in question than even you do.

We have also seen international top level teams "give up" in tournament games yet this is only going to apply to the 2 non national teams in this tournament as stated by all those that oppose them?

What?

Team white for Canada won the U17 tournament just this past week (with 2 other Canadian entries, not even based on geography), did anyone see less effort by any of those players?

This has been explained to you already, but once again: Team Canada White (and red and black) are at least representing their nation. Team NA YoungGunz do not represent a nation, despite participating in an "international" tournament. In fact, they have the risk of playing against their own country, as in Team Canada or Team USA. Canada White could play Canada Red or Canada Black, but those teams are all representing their nation equally. The YoungGunz represent neither Canada nor USA, and they might have to play the teams that actually do - the situation is completely different.

you can take it to the bank. Even if I am proven to be right and these gimmicky teams get trounced by lopsided scores and this tournament fails in every aspect, from competitive balance to entertainment value, to commercial success, whatever this gong show ends up being or not being, once the puck drops it will be completely ignored by me. I'm just going to enjoy trashing it until then. So, buckle up!

Seems some people will not get it - the gimmick teams are not justified even if they are the two top teams in the tournament. There is no place in an international tournament for non-national teams. The NHL pretending that competitiveness is an issue, despite no fans complaining about competitiveness being an issue with best on best tournaments in the past, is enough justification for some people I guess. Whatever Bettman says is good enough.
 
Yes, he is an esteemed GM. I know that you watch the NHL "like a scout" but I'm willing to bet that Chiarelli knows more about the players in question than even you do.

and Scotty Bowman knows a ton more than both of us yet his list of top 100 Candian hockey players of all time is really weird and is extremely hard to justify on any level..

Chiarelli makes mistakes and asking for an older goalie and trading that 16th pick are both obvious ones.








This has been explained to you already, but once again: Team Canada White (and red and black) are at least representing their nation. Team NA YoungGunz do not represent a nation, despite participating in an "international" tournament. In fact, they have the risk of playing against their own country, as in Team Canada or Team USA. Canada White could play Canada Red or Canada Black, but those teams are all representing their nation equally. The YoungGunz represent neither Canada nor USA, and they might have to play the teams that actually do - the situation is completely different.

Hang on a second here, either Canda fields their best national team or they don't, or do you not proscribe that limited POV?

On one hand you have stated that guy won't be willing to play for a "non national team" and be somewhat handicapped or conflicted on their motivations but a tournament with not 2 but 3 "team Canada's" isn't a similar problem?

"Canada" was much more handicapped in bringing their best team to the U17 tournament yet players on all 3 teams gave their best and they all played competitively right?

Naysayers to the tournament have repeatedly stated how players won't be motivated unless they are playing for their national teams right or maybe your line of thought isn't consistent here.



Seems some people will not get it - the gimmick teams are not justified even if they are the two top teams in the tournament. There is no place in an international tournament for non-national teams. The NHL pretending that competitiveness is an issue, despite no fans complaining about competitiveness being an issue with best on best tournaments in the past, is enough justification for some people I guess. Whatever Bettman says is good enough.

No I get it, you oppose the format of the tournament and like a guy at a hip hop concert you are screaming why is there no rock and roll here.

Go enjoy the WHC, wait teams can't bring their best players there either, or maybe wait for the Olympics, crashing the threads here is becoming tiresome.

NAU23 has a very good chance of providing stiff competition in the tournament and many hockey fans are eager to see what was once hypothetical happen if only out of curiosity.

But really if you want "pure hockey" go watch the 7-7 league with no boards where the goalies must not leave their feet.

Things change and yes not always for the better, but if people don't want to watch the tournament that's their right, it's just embarrassing for them to tell the rest of us what to do here.
 
No I get it, you oppose the format of the tournament and like a guy at a hip hop concert you are screaming why is there no rock and roll here.

Except in this case the concert organizers are marketing their product as a rock and roll event while booking nothing but hip hop acts, all the while considering the cancellation of all real rock and roll events in the future.

Understand why people are upset now?

The NHL is telling us that this is a best-on-best international tournament (when it is neither) and threatens to use this travesty to replace the only real such event (the Olympics) that we have.
 
Go enjoy the WHC, wait teams can't bring their best players there either, or maybe wait for the Olympics, crashing the threads here is becoming tiresome.

NAU23 has a very good chance of providing stiff competition in the tournament and many hockey fans are eager to see what was once hypothetical happen if only out of curiosity.

But really if you want "pure hockey" go watch the 7-7 league with no boards where the goalies must not leave their feet.

Things change and yes not always for the better, but if people don't want to watch the tournament that's their right, it's just embarrassing for them to tell the rest of us what to do here.
So, it all boils down to you liking the concept, and it's kinda making you feel bothered when there are other people about, bashing it?

I don't know how many people there are out there, liking the idea, but I know that there are also quite many who are NOT liking it. And since most of them are pretty elaborate in telling us WHY they don't like it, it seems that they've also put some thought on it before coming to a conclusion that they don't like it.

Now, since this seems to be a place where both sides of the argument are welcome, clashes are kinda inavoidable. And unless the forum management wishes to put a lid on it, it's right par on the course too that people who don't like are not gonna let the other side live it down.

You want us to shut up? Well...

Things change and not always for the better, but if people wanna watch the tournament that's their right, but it's just embarrassing for them to tell the rest of us what to do here.
 
and Scotty Bowman knows a ton more than both of us yet his list of top 100 Candian hockey players of all time is really weird and is extremely hard to justify on any level..

Chiarelli makes mistakes and asking for an older goalie and trading that 16th pick are both obvious ones.











Hang on a second here, either Canda fields their best national team or they don't, or do you not proscribe that limited POV?

On one hand you have stated that guy won't be willing to play for a "non national team" and be somewhat handicapped or conflicted on their motivations but a tournament with not 2 but 3 "team Canada's" isn't a similar problem?

"Canada" was much more handicapped in bringing their best team to the U17 tournament yet players on all 3 teams gave their best and they all played competitively right?

Naysayers to the tournament have repeatedly stated how players won't be motivated unless they are playing for their national teams right or maybe your line of thought isn't consistent here.





No I get it, you oppose the format of the tournament and like a guy at a hip hop concert you are screaming why is there no rock and roll here.

Go enjoy the WHC, wait teams can't bring their best players there either, or maybe wait for the Olympics, crashing the threads here is becoming tiresome.

NAU23 has a very good chance of providing stiff competition in the tournament and many hockey fans are eager to see what was once hypothetical happen if only out of curiosity.

But really if you want "pure hockey" go watch the 7-7 league with no boards where the goalies must not leave their feet.

Things change and yes not always for the better, but if people don't want to watch the tournament that's their right, it's just embarrassing for them to tell the rest of us what to do here.


I've never agreed with Hockey Canada's approach to the U17 tournament either. I didn't particularly agree with the division of 5 regional based teams nor do I agree with the 3 team concept now, but considering Hockey Canada is doing it not as a commercial venture, but as a means to expose as many kids (16 years old) as possible to their first international event, then have at it. I've never watched 1 U17 game in my life. The funny thing is though, I follow U18s with 1 National Team from start to finish, from Hlinka to IIHF U18...as I do with U20s along with senior men's teams at true international tournaments. You get the picture?

And I'm not telling you or anybody else what they can do or what to watch/not watch...I'm just explaining why I'm opposed to this format and why I won't be watching it...now if there are likeminded people out there who agree and decide that it's not worth their time, then good for them. Solidarity forever.


If the NHL wants to promote this for what it actually is, a pre-season exhibition friendly for NHL players and cap ticket prices say at 25$$$ for platinum seats at the ACC and commit to holding a True World/Canada Cup with real National Teams every 4 years, along with committing to the next 2 Olympics (A good place to start) then sure, I'd let this 2016 travesty slide! hell, under those circumstances, I'd probably even hit up my boss for some corporate tics comp'd. Nothing like freebies...but since the NHL isn't doing that...and we all know in what direction the NHL wants to take this, then my answer to the NHL is just say NO.
 
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and Scotty Bowman knows a ton more than both of us yet his list of top 100 Candian hockey players of all time is really weird and is extremely hard to justify on any level..

Chiarelli makes mistakes and asking for an older goalie and trading that 16th pick are both obvious ones.

I agree about Bowman's horrible list. These guys are not infallible. Bowman is quite far removed from his active coaching career, even further removed from seeing guys like Richard and Beliveau, and was proven to be a not so great GM. Chiarelli is a successful GM now, and is scouting current players as opposed to remembering players from more than 50 years ago. Good luck finding another GM in a tournament like this asking for a dispensation from the tournament organizers because he doesn't believe his own team is competitive enough. Chairelli, who has probably followed this team and its eligible players more than anyone else, already knows what most people can readily see - his gimmick team is not in a very good position to be competitive.

Hang on a second here, either Canda fields their best national team or they don't, or do you not proscribe that limited POV?

On one hand you have stated that guy won't be willing to play for a "non national team" and be somewhat handicapped or conflicted on their motivations but a tournament with not 2 but 3 "team Canada's" isn't a similar problem?

"Canada" was much more handicapped in bringing their best team to the U17 tournament yet players on all 3 teams gave their best and they all played competitively right?

Naysayers to the tournament have repeatedly stated how players won't be motivated unless they are playing for their national teams right or maybe your line of thought isn't consistent here.

Again - Canada (Red, White, Black) is a country. In that tournament there are three team Canadas. Each team represents their country, and is comprised of only players from that country. NA YoungGunz do not represent a country - they represent an age group of players from two different countries, both of which already have teams in the tournament. So, not only do the NA YoungGunz not represent a country, but ultimately their ultimate success (winning the tournament) would have to come at the expense of their country. That situation is obviously quite different from the U17 situation, which I assume most people can readily grasp.

No I get it, you oppose the format of the tournament and like a guy at a hip hop concert you are screaming why is there no rock and roll here.

The NHL is selling this as an international tournament. They are not providing an international tournament since all of the teams are not national teams. Thus, your analogy is embarrassingly inappropriate.

Go enjoy the WHC, wait teams can't bring their best players there either, or maybe wait for the Olympics, crashing the threads here is becoming tiresome.

I will wait for the Olympics, an actual best on best tournament. I don't understand your fixation with assuming that I'm a big fan of the WHC - I'm not.

NAU23 has a very good chance of providing stiff competition in the tournament and many hockey fans are eager to see what was once hypothetical happen if only out of curiosity.

You assume they have a very good chance of providing stiff competition - far more people assume otherwise. Including the GM of the YoungGunz, hilariously. I would like you to show me these many excited fans, since I don't see them here or any other place for that matter.

But really if you want "pure hockey" go watch the 7-7 league with no boards where the goalies must not leave their feet.

What? I don't understand what you are even talking about. You do realize that complaining about an idiotic format is not the same as complaining about the sport itself, right?

Things change and yes not always for the better, but if people don't want to watch the tournament that's their right, it's just embarrassing for them to tell the rest of us what to do here.

I agree that it is their right. No one here is telling you that you cannot watch the tournament - people are rightly demonstrating that each and every one of your arguments in support of this idiotic format is either poorly thought out or irrelevant. The same goes for the NHL, the entity that gave you most of those arguments in the first place. Plenty of people will enjoy this tournament just the way it is. The market for idiotic things tends to be pretty sizable.
 
Gaudreau - McDavid - MacKinnon
Drouin - Nugent-Hopkins - Eichel
Huberdeau - Monahan - Scheifele
Saad - Couturier - Strome

Dumba - Ekblad
Jones - Trouba
Reilly - Hamilton

Hellebuyck
Gibson

God, that was hard!
 
Gaudreau - McDavid - MacKinnon
Drouin - Nugent-Hopkins - Eichel
Huberdeau - Monahan - Scheifele
Saad - Couturier - Strome

Dumba - Ekblad
Jones - Trouba
Reilly - Hamilton

Hellebuyck
Gibson

God, that was hard!

Replace Hamilton with Parayko and it looks good.
 
Gaudreau - McDavid - MacKinnon
Drouin - Nugent-Hopkins - Eichel
Huberdeau - Monahan - Scheifele
Saad - Couturier - Strome

Dumba - Ekblad
Jones - Trouba
Reilly - Hamilton

Hellebuyck
Gibson

God, that was hard!

A lot of tough calls.

Strome would have been a lock a few months ago, but going down to the American League obviously isnt a great thing for him.

Drouin as of right now is NOT on my team, but again, all he needs to do is find that switch and he could be a key player

Im getting picky but Rielly should be over Dumba in terms of pairing, and Couturier and Saad probably play higher up in the lineup & are separated
 
Matt Murray has to be the most underrated prospect around here. I havent seen him in a single projected lineup yet. I can see why ppl rate Gibson higher. But Fucale? Subban? Come on....
 
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