Transfer: 2016 Summer transfer discussion

[Savant]

I don't understand why you wanted Liverpool to spend big money on a keeper (assuming Real or City would have asked for a lot of money for those keepers) but not on Mustafi. I know I've criticized you for this before, but you overrate the importance of the keeper to the defense. I'm also skeptical that Hart is a lot better than Karius.

Hart has been very good this year, knows how to win the PL, and could give Liverpool leadership that they certainly need. He would be a perfect signing. Karius' CV is no where near Hart's. No one is discounting Karius' potential, but I am highlighting Liverpool's urgency.

I think you may have misunderstood me on Mustafi. I would LOVE to sign Mustafi, I just think that Liverpool won't necessarily want to put that much money into another CB. Whether the should or not is another story. I do think Klopp will be happy to start the season with Lovren and Matip as the starters though, especially now that they will be stapled to each other all preseason. Liverpool are not Man U, Chelsea, etc. they cannot, and haven't been able to throw X amount of dollars at a certain position to overhaul it. As much as I would be thrilled to have Mustafi, it's hard for me to see Liverpool's front office make a move like that, even though they should.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Hart has been very good this year, knows how to win the PL, and could give Liverpool leadership that they certainly need. He would be a perfect signing. Karius' CV is no where near Hart's. No one is discounting Karius' potential, but I am highlighting Liverpool's urgency.

I think you may have misunderstood me on Mustafi. I would LOVE to sign Mustafi, I just think that Liverpool won't necessarily want to put that much money into another CB. Whether the should or not is another story. I do think Klopp will be happy to start the season with Lovren and Matip as the starters though, especially now that they will be stapled to each other all preseason. Liverpool are not Man U, Chelsea, etc. they cannot, and haven't been able to throw X amount of dollars at a certain position to overhaul it. As much as I would be thrilled to have Mustafi, it's hard for me to see Liverpool's front office make a move like that, even though they should.

Winning the PL and having a CV are team accomplishments. Sure, in this sport players are with some justification only receive a given degree of recognition if they can replicate their achievements with a better team, but keeper is one position where the best players aren't necessarily on the best teams. For instance, the worst team in the Bundesliga this season had a better keeper than the second place team.

Liverpool are spending more money on Karius' transfer than they are on Matip, but in the case of the former, you talk about the EPL being an "arms race" and "you can't bring a knife to a gun fight", but in Matip's case, you say "Liverpool are not Man U... they cannot throw X amount of dollars at a certain position to overhaul it." If you think Matip is a higher quality player relative to his peers than Karius is, that's fine. It just sounds to me like you're asking the club to put more money and effort into making a deal on an experienced top class keeper than into making a deal on a higher class CB.

 

[Live in the Now]

Love the Karius signing. There is no reason to ever spend big money on a keeper.

 

[Vipers31]

I don't see how Karius isn't an upgrade on Mignolet already. Similar strengths as an outstanding shotstopper, from what I saw similar weakness in box-control on high crosses, but already much more consistent. Not sure Hart is much better, either, beyond having a sexy CV.

Very good buy for LFC, IMO. Definitely had the right candidates with him and Horn, couldn't really go wrong with either.

 

[Savant]

Winning the PL and having a CV are team accomplishments. Sure, in this sport players are with some justification only receive a given degree of recognition if they can replicate their achievements with a better team, but keeper is one position where the best players aren't necessarily on the best teams. For instance, the worst team in the Bundesliga this season had a better keeper than the second place team.

Liverpool are spending more money on Karius' transfer than they are on Matip, but in the case of the former, you talk about the EPL being an "arms race" and "you can't bring a knife to a gun fight", but in Matip's case, you say "Liverpool are not Man U... they cannot throw X amount of dollars at a certain position to overhaul it." If you think Matip is a higher quality player relative to his peers than Karius is, that's fine. It just sounds to me like you're asking the club to put more money and effort into making a deal on an experienced top class keeper than into making a deal on a higher class CB.

That's not what I am saying at all. I'm saying that they already spent money on a CB, therefore they may not want to spend more money on another CB. I absolutely think CB is a more important position than GK too. As I said I think it's about asset management more than anything else. I want the club to sign as many great players as possible, but their front office has not shown that they will do that. They do not have infinity money that they can make multiple big buys at the same position. CB and GK are independent of each other. I want great players at both positions. I just think it would be foolish to expect Liverpool to act accordingly because there is no evidence that FSG will do that

 

[Savant]

I don't see how Karius isn't an upgrade on Mignolet already. Similar strengths as an outstanding shotstopper, from what I saw similar weakness in box-control on high crosses, but already much more consistent. Not sure Hart is much better, either, beyond having a sexy CV.

Very good buy for LFC, IMO. Definitely had the right candidates with him and Horn, couldn't really go wrong with either.

I definitely rate Karius over Horn. Karius is probably going to be better than Mignolet, but it wouldn't shock me if we are in this thread same time next year with similar complaints either. Karius could be great but his skill set is similar to Mignolet as you say. That could also be a problem.

 

[Live in the Now]

We won't have the same complaints about him as Mignolet. Mignolet's greatest weakness was on low shots struck to his side that should have been easy saves. Karius does not have that same weakness and is good with low lateral movement and getting himself on the ground to make those stops.

 

[Vipers31]

I definitely rate Karius over Horn. Karius is probably going to be better than Mignolet, but it wouldn't shock me if we are in this thread same time next year with similar complaints either. Karius could be great but his skill set is similar to Mignolet as you say. That could also be a problem.

Were the issues with Mignolet really his skill set? Seemed to me that his issues were his mental lapses happening far too often after his first year there. That's not really something Karius gives one reason to worry over.

 

[Ivan13]

Bayern is after Ćorluka.

 

[Bon Esprit]

Btw Zieler is on the market. IIRC he had some history at ManUTD before he joined Hannover 96. Solid, not fancy goalie. The EPL might be an option.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Havard Nordtveit to West Ham is confirmed.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Where does Karius rank in terms of German keepers? Better or worse than the likes of Leno? Assuming MAtS is the best of them all?

 

[Power Man]

Karius once chased rebels

 

[Bon Esprit]

Where does Karius rank in terms of German keepers? Better or worse than the likes of Leno? Assuming MAtS is the best of them all?

Neuer is the best German goalie.

Goalkeepers grow on trees here. Karius is maybe top 5. Ter Steegen is good, Trapp is good and so on...

 

[Savant]

Were the issues with Mignolet really his skill set? Seemed to me that his issues were his mental lapses happening far too often after his first year there. That's not really something Karius gives one reason to worry over.

Both. Mignolet is a very good keeper in 1 on 1's but he really can't do anything else well

 

[Savant]

Karius once chased rebels

Going to have to ask you to elaborate here...

 

[cgf]

I'm also skeptical that Hart is a lot better than Karius.

I think you meant "...any better..."

For instance, the worst team in the Bundesliga this season had a better keeper than the second place team.

I'll never understand why Zieler is so highly rated. To me he's a "just solid" keeper who was an early-bloomer. He's not much good at playing the ball, is just fine as a shot stopper, his command of his box is adequate but not Kahn-like, and given the craptastic backlines he's played behind it's tough to argue that he excels at marshalling a defense to negate some of mediocrity in other areas. All I see in Zieler is a name that people recognize because he was able to break through early.

Even with Burki's shakey moments he's a more dynamic shot stopper & significantly better on the ball.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Neuer is the best German goalie.

Goalkeepers grow on trees here. Karius is maybe top 5. Ter Steegen is good, Trapp is good and so on...

I meant that age group. Neuer is the best in the world.

Yeah, well you guys are lucky! Argentina haven't had a great young keeper in years. Rulli might be one and Batalla has potential but if even just one of them makes as WC, I'd jump for joy.

 

[Bon Esprit]

I think you meant "...any better..."



I'll never understand why Zieler is so highly rated. To me he's a "just solid" keeper who was an early-bloomer. He's not much good at playing the ball, is just fine as a shot stopper, his command of his box is adequate but not Kahn-like, and given the craptastic backlines he's played behind it's tough to argue that he excels at marshalling a defense to negate some of mediocrity in other areas. All I see in Zieler is a name that people recognize because he was able to break through early.

Even with Burki's shakey moments he's a more dynamic shot stopper & significantly better on the ball.

I'm not a fan of Zieler though he was in goal of my team. But play behind the crappy backline he did for so many years and then we can talk. Even Neuer had looked bad in H96's goal.

 

[Bon Esprit]

I meant that age group. Neuer is the best in the world.

Yeah, well you guys are lucky! Argentina haven't had a great young keeper in years. Rulli might be one and Batalla has potential but if even just one of them makes as WC, I'd jump for joy.

Neuer is 28 or something, Trapp, Ter Steegen are younger, Karius is 22/23. Age isn't an issue. Neuer will be there for a couple of years. After that some other guy will take over. Like I said, Goalies aren't an issue in Germany. You can put Nr. 5 or 6 on the pitch and everything will be fine. Our issues are up front. We need scorers.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Where does Karius rank in terms of German keepers? Better or worse than the likes of Leno? Assuming MAtS is the best of them all?

He's good but imo he'll never be in the conversation for the national team unless a lot of his peers get injured. I don't think many if any German fans think he's a top 5 German keeper. In his age group, MAtS, Leno, and Horn are generally more highly regarded.

I think you meant "...any better..."



I'll never understand why Zieler is so highly rated. To me he's a "just solid" keeper who was an early-bloomer. He's not much good at playing the ball, is just fine as a shot stopper, his command of his box is adequate but not Kahn-like, and given the craptastic backlines he's played behind it's tough to argue that he excels at marshalling a defense to negate some of mediocrity in other areas. All I see in Zieler is a name that people recognize because he was able to break through early.

I disagree. He's an extremely well-rounded keeper. He's maybe just good at playing in the box, but he's an excellent proactive sweeper and great participant in buildup, plus he's extremely consistent. Sure, some Bundesliga/German keepers surpass him in some of those areas, but the keepers who are better on the line than he is (Leno/Horn) aren't nearly as good at passing or sweeping, and the keepers who can pass better than him (Bürki/Baumann) aren't as solid in net. I'd say MAtS is more talented in every area than he is and has the potential to be the best keeper in the world, but Zieler is still a lot more mentally consistent than MAtS.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Neuer is 28 or something, Trapp, Ter Steegen are younger, Karius is 22/23. Age isn't an issue. Neuer will be there for a couple of years. After that some other guy will take over. Like I said, Goalies aren't an issue in Germany. You can put Nr. 5 or 6 on the pitch and everything will be fine. Our issues are up front. We need scorers.

Neuer is 30.

We know how good he is... I wanted to know how the rest rank amongst themselves.

Trade you Higuain for Hummels?

He's good but imo he'll never be in the conversation for the national team unless a lot of his peers get injured. I don't think many if any German fans think he's a top 5 German keeper. In his age group, MAtS, Leno, and Horn are generally more highly regarded.
.

Thanks DM, That's what I wanted to know.

 

[cgf]

Where does Karius rank in terms of German keepers? Better or worse than the likes of Leno? Assuming MAtS is the best of them all?

MAtS & Leno is a toss up on talent; Leno probably deserves the nod based on current form & consistency, but MAtS was spectacular with Gladbach & has made huge progress at Barca in his play with the ball. Though each of Trapp, Karius, Horn, M.Muller, Wellenreuther, Vlachodimos, Mathenia, Schwolow & J.Huth have shown promise (to varying degrees), I don't think any are as special as those first two...though I'm not a Wellenreuther fan, at least not based off of what I'd seen before he left for spain.

Fahrmann is the big enigma of german goalkeeping to me. When on form, he's as good a shot-stopper as you'll find and is assertive in the air...but his long list of injuries has meant he hasn't often gotten to get into a groove.

 

[Bon Esprit]

Neuer is 30.

We know how good he is... I wanted to know how the rest rank amongst themselves.

Trade you Higuain for Hummels?



Thanks DM, That's what I wanted to know.

Higuain for Neuer. Done deal!

You have a very good goalie, we have somebody who can put the ball into the net. Perfect trade.

 

[Chimaera]

Yeah, the Bundesliga isn't hurting for keepers. Their development of them is arguably close to the best right now. They have 5 or 6 guys who could feasibly play their trade at 10 or 15 of the best clubs in Europe in the near future (heck, a number of them already do).

I've seen a bit of Karius play, and I think he might have better abilities in some areas than Mignolet, but I don't know that he's clearly better. Mignolet at one point was a superior shot stopper (at least when he came over) and while I think I would concede his stopping shots down low to his side of late, that's something that can be fixed. Mignolet's problems for me over his career has been his kicking (there was a clear time under Rodgers where he couldn't do much more than hoof it down towards the midfield) and his command of the box. He never seemed to learn when to stay or go. Karius just needs more experience. He needs to work on when to go and when to stay, and he needs to hone his obvious talents.

I think he's a player who probably takes the job from him, but I don't know that he's a clear #1. The two will probably battle it out come preseason, but maybe that's the better option?

It's a value buy for what the cost is. He's going to get better and maybe his upside is higher. Maybe Mignolet plays better with a guy who can actually push him, unlike Bogdan. It's not like Mignolet is bad. He's just prone to mistakes and hasn't had a challenge in any of the time he has been here. I'm a firm believer that some goalies need a #2 who can take the job from them if they're not sharp. Karius can do that. I also don't think it hurts that he has been in England for a few seasons in the past with City, and that a few of the Liverpool scouts seem to have some in roads with a few of their former academy guys.

I just wanted to see a more experienced hand.