Post-Game Talk: 2016 NHL Draft

[CantStoptheBrock]

If exposed to the level of scrutiny directed toward Benning around here, I don't think any NHL GM would hold up as "smart management."

Just look at the rapidly shifting evaluations of GM's around the league: Sakic was horrible, then he was a God; Rutherford was horrible, then he was a God, then he was horrible again; Doug Wilson was a God, now he is horrible; Dubas was a goldenboy, now he's an incompetent pushover; Chayka was a goldenboy, now he's tarnished.

The truth is that most GM's are human, and make decisions with outside factors involved that no fan or even media member has total access to. All they can really do is surmise what transpired through a sort of telephone game where facts can become twisted, unless they have tapped the Canucks front office. Lots of the Vancouver media rumours originate from those spurned by Benning and Weisbrod--I'm looking at Gilman and Brackett--and thus are heavily biased.

That's why it's best to just evaluate what actually transpired rather than generating narratives out of speculation and ambiguity. Though, to be fair, it does look very favourable upon Benning that now he's mostly litigated for things he could have done, rather than what he actually did. That it's now necessary to scrounge around for little nuggets of Benning "incompetence" rather than just evaluate the team as it stands today suggests that the tides are turning.

 

[datboichoi]

Agreed that this happened right before the draft, but leading up to the draft JP was about as solid at #3 as you could get.

It still shocks me that a player rated so high was such a failure at the pro level.

Double hip surgery

 

[rypper]

If exposed to the level of scrutiny directed toward Benning around here, I don't think any NHL GM would hold up as "smart management."

Just look at the rapidly shifting evaluations of GM's around the league: Sakic was horrible, then he was a God; Rutherford was horrible, then he was a God, then he was horrible again; Doug Wilson was a God, now he is horrible; Dubas was a goldenboy, now he's an incompetent pushover; Chayka was a goldenboy, now he's tarnished.

The truth is that most GM's are human, and make decisions with outside factors involved that no fan or even media member has total access to. All they can really do is surmise what transpired through a sort of telephone game where facts can become twisted, unless they have tapped the Canucks front office. Lots of the Vancouver media rumours originate from those spurned by Benning and Weisbrod--I'm looking at Gilman and Brackett--and thus are heavily biased.

That's why it's best to just evaluate what actually transpired rather than generating narratives out of speculation and ambiguity. Though, to be fair, it does look very favourable upon Benning that now he's mostly litigated for things he could have done, rather than what he actually did. That it's now necessary to scrounge around for little nuggets of Benning "incompetence" rather than just evaluate the team as it stands today suggests that the tides are turning.

When is Benning's turn to be a god?

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Is this the worst era of all time for the Canucks?

View attachment 352389

That jersey perfectly suits Benning's record here as GM, good call Pastor! And 60% of people voted Benning as the worst GM in franchise history.
I yearn for the day that you develop a sense of deductive reasoning.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

If exposed to the level of scrutiny directed toward Benning around here, I don't think any NHL GM would hold up as "smart management."

Just look at the rapidly shifting evaluations of GM's around the league: Sakic was horrible, then he was a God; Rutherford was horrible, then he was a God, then he was horrible again; Doug Wilson was a God, now he is horrible; Dubas was a goldenboy, now he's an incompetent pushover; Chayka was a goldenboy, now he's tarnished.

The truth is that most GM's are human, and make decisions with outside factors involved that no fan or even media member has total access to. All they can really do is surmise what transpired through a sort of telephone game where facts can become twisted, unless they have tapped the Canucks front office. Lots of the Vancouver media rumours originate from those spurned by Benning and Weisbrod--I'm looking at Gilman and Brackett--and thus are heavily biased.

That's why it's best to just evaluate what actually transpired rather than generating narratives out of speculation and ambiguity. Though, to be fair, it does look very favourable upon Benning that now he's mostly litigated for things he could have done, rather than what he actually did. That it's now necessary to scrounge around for little nuggets of Benning "incompetence" rather than just evaluate the team as it stands today suggests that the tides are turning.

Well the one thing we all know transpired is that a Benning built team has finished with one of the worst record in the NHL the last 5 seasons combined. We can start there with his evaluation. I'd say it is off to a pretty bad start for him.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Well the one thing we all know transpired is that a Benning built team has finished with one of the worst record in the NHL the last 5 seasons combined. We can start there with his evaluation. I'd say it is off to a pretty bad start for him.

Poor records are symptomatic of teams that are transitioning from an old core to a new one...Let me guess,..you were also on team 'tank'..but you still want to moan about the results.

 

[VanillaCoke]

You can't have it both ways

 

[Peter10]

Poor records are symptomatic of teams that are transitioning from an old core to a new one...Let me guess,..you were also on team 'tank'..but you still want to moan about the results.

Please list any competent GM that missed the playoffs for 4 straight years and wasnt fired.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Please list any competent GM that missed the playoffs for 4 straight years and wasnt fired.

David Poile missed 5 seasons....Also, Kevin Cheveldayoff only made the playoffs once in a six year span..

Playing musical GM's isn't always the answer... (ask Buffalo,Arizona,Florida,Toronto, Edmonton etc)..More than anything ,that demonstrates an unstable organization.

 

[Peter10]

David Poile missed 5 seasons....Also, Kevin Cheveldayoff only made the playoffs once in a six year span..

Playing musical GM's isn't always the answer... (ask Buffalo,Arizona,Florida,Toronto, Edmonton etc)..More than anything ,that demonstrates an unstable organization.

So you have to use an expansion team to find one. And since Cheveldayoff made the playoffs in his 4th year he is out of the equation.

And how is Arizona an example of "musical GMs? They have their third GM since 2002. Edmonton hired a clown just as bad as Benning. Why is Toronto unstable? They finally are respectable again since they fired Nonis. Florida has been a mess under Tallon who has been at the helm for 9 out of the last 10 years.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Poor records are symptomatic of teams that are transitioning from an old core to a new one...Let me guess,..you were also on team 'tank'..but you still want to moan about the results.

You be wrong, but I think you already know that as this topic (tanking) has been discussed for years.
My reply was focusing on the bolded part of the OP, please re-read the OP if you want to jump into the conversation, thanks.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So you have to use an expansion team to find one. And since Cheveldayoff made the playoffs in his 4th year he is out of the equation.

And how is Arizona an example of "musical GMs? They have their third GM since 2002. Edmonton hired a clown just as bad as Benning. Why is Toronto unstable? They finally are respectable again since they fired Nonis. Florida has been a mess under Tallon who has been at the helm for 9 out of the last 10 years.

(should probably be in the management thread ,but I will oblige you anyway)...

So,Kevin Cheveldayoff making the playoffs once in 6 years isn't a call for a firing?...Yes....Benning has missed four straight here...Despite the first few years under Lindens 'compete on the fly' mandate (which was implemented before JB even got here)..He has transitioned the team, with an exciting new young core...Reinvigorated the fanbase, and there's starting to be sellouts at games again..

Just because GM's miss the playoffs does not make them all' incompetent'..Burke and Nonis (to some degree) set the table for Gillis..Jeff Gorton set the table for Chiarelli and Benning....Jim Rutherford has been a basement dweller as well as a SC winning GM...Dale Tallon constructed the Championship Blackhawk team.

Benning has been here 5 years (4 out of the playoffs ), taken into account there was barely a prospect pool in 2014...It doesn't look that bad at all, .... compared to..

NJD...I playoff in 8 years
CAR..spent 9 consecutive years out of the playoffs
BUF...9 years out of the playoffs and counting
TOR...had a stretch of 1 playoff in 11 seasons (our records this season were basically the same)
EDM...1 playoff in 13 years
FLA...2 playoffs in 18 years
ARI....7 years out of the playoffs

The grass isn't always greener on the other side...

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Huh, we've evolved from "but Gillis!" to "but Linden!"
I personally would have chosen "but Aquilini!" as it would have better longevity, but let's see if it pays off, Cotton.

 

[MarkMM]

(should probably be in the management thread ,but I will oblige you anyway)...

So,Kevin Cheveldayoff making the playoffs once in 6 years isn't a call for a firing?...Yes....Benning has missed four straight here...Despite the first few years under Lindens 'compete on the fly' mandate (which was implemented before JB even got here)..He has transitioned the team, with an exciting new young core...Reinvigorated the fanbase, and there's starting to be sellouts at games again..

Just because GM's miss the playoffs does not make them all' incompetent'..Burke and Nonis (to some degree) set the table for Gillis..Jeff Gorton set the table for Chiarelli and Benning....Jim Rutherford has been a basement dweller as well as a SC winning GM...Dale Tallon constructed the Championship Blackhawk team.

Benning has been here 5 years (4 out of the playoffs ), taken into account there was barely a prospect pool in 2014...It doesn't look that bad at all, .... compared to..

NJD...I playoff in 8 years
CAR..spent 9 consecutive years out of the playoffs
BUF...9 years out of the playoffs and counting
TOR...had a stretch of 1 playoff in 11 seasons (our records this season were basically the same)
EDM...1 playoff in 13 years
FLA...2 playoffs in 18 years
ARI....7 years out of the playoffs

The grass isn't always greener on the other side...

How about missing those playoffs while being a cap team, being a net exporter of draft picks, signing junk to contracts and giving out NTC's to players who are overpaid?

It's incredulous that you think your arguments aren't laughable.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

How about missing those playoffs while being a cap team, being a net exporter of draft picks, signing junk to contracts and giving out NTC's to players who are overpaid?

It's incredulous that you think your arguments aren't laughable.

..What were your expectations from 2015 onwards?...playoffs...?..Team rebuilt in 2 years.?.

 

[Bleach Clean]

How about missing those playoffs while being a cap team, being a net exporter of draft picks, signing junk to contracts and giving out NTC's to players who are overpaid?

It's incredulous that you think your arguments aren't laughable.

I don't think POM actually believes what he posts anymore. You can find posts where he will agree that Benning is at the end of his tether if he misses the playoffs. Then you have discussions like this where he defends Benning despite the playoff baseline?

What is instead put forward for comparison are some of the worst stretches by teams in recent history. Apparently, that’s now the baseline? The mental gymnastics required to keep shifting baselines like this makes it impossible to take what he is saying seriously.

By most average baselines posed, Benning has fallen short in nearly every category save for drafting. And that, as we learn, was a function of Brackett. So why is he still here? None can say.

 

[xtra]

Wait so linden was now making the scouting Calls in 2016 not the drafting savant (who had a worse 2016 draft than my keyboard gm asss did)???

that’s a new goalpost moving tactic.....can’t wait to see how that plays out along with the cap space doesn’t matter club as well

 

[Peter10]

..What were your expectations from 2015 onwards?...playoffs...?..Team rebuilt in 2 years.?.

Not try to compete and make bad decision after bad decision in order to do so.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Wait so linden was now making the scouting Calls in 2016 not the drafting savant (who had a worse 2016 draft than my keyboard gm asss did)???

that’s a new goalpost moving tactic.....can’t wait to see how that plays out along with the cap space doesn’t matter club as well

Except Linden specifically said the process changed from 2016 to 2017, where he implied that he overruled Benning to empower Brackett. What was the change if he was making the pick in 2016?

Also, why then does Iain MacIntyre imply that Juolevi was a Benning pick?

The twists and turns following POM’s line of reasoning here...

 

[Jyrki21]

Wait so linden was now making the scouting Calls in 2016 not the drafting savant (who had a worse 2016 draft than my keyboard gm asss did)???

that’s a new goalpost moving tactic.....can’t wait to see how that plays out along with the cap space doesn’t matter club as well

As we know, Linden is the guy who would personally make scouting trips down the stretch drive instead of gearing up for the trade deadline at the end of a lost season. Also the one who kept insisting on swapping out futures to take on further ballast. This is what all presidents do, right? I think most teams don't even have general managers, come to think of it.

We are not at war with Eurasia! We are, and always have been, at war with Eastasia!

 

[Canucks LB]

How the hell did ronning not get drafted in the 7th round by us, is ****ing beyond me.

I crack myself up

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Wait so linden was now making the scouting Calls in 2016 not the drafting savant (who had a worse 2016 draft than my keyboard gm asss did)???

that’s a new goalpost moving tactic.....can’t wait to see how that plays out along with the cap space doesn’t matter club as well

Who said that Linden was making the scouting calls in 2016..?...Nobody is arguing that the OJ pick was propelled by Benning (and Linden, whom I heard on 1040 before the draft on why there was a good chance the Canucks would draft a D-man)...I'm saying Linden was in charge of the overall direction of the team, and was also involved in Gm duties..

"Iain McIntyre of Sportsnet reported earlier in the week that Linden felt “angry and betrayed” by general manager Jim Benning when he had left. Benning denied any rift with Linden, claiming they “always had a really good relationship,” and that they “were always on the same page.”
Though Benning and Linden wouldn’t publicly say anything bad about the other, it definitely sounds like the two weren’t seeing eye-to-eye. Though Linden carried the role of president, it always seemed evident that he was acting as the general manager, at least from time-to-time."

Yet you guys are saying (to fit your narrative) say that Linden made the 2017 pick?..which there isn't a shred of evidence..and I'm moving the goalposts?

Benning implemented the the drafting system...promoted the the head scout (from virtual obscurity) who went under Bennings directive and mentorship....At the end of the day Benning made the 'executive decision' on all the Canucks 1st round picks..good and bad.

 

[xtra]

Who said that Linden was making the scouting calls in 2016..?...Nobody is arguing that the OJ pick was propelled by Benning (and Linden, whom I heard on 1040 before the draft on why there was a good chance the Canucks would draft a D-man).


Yet you guys are saying (to fit your narrative) say that Linden made the 2017 pick?..which there isn't a shred of evidence..and I'm moving the goalposts?

you legit say “who said linden was making the scouting calls in 2016” and follow it up with the pick was propelled by Benning (and linden whom I heard....)

you are trying to lump linden in with bennings choice of taking juloevi to deflect criticism of benning on the pick and put some on linden.


If that’s not your intention how about wording it:
No one is arguing that Juloevi was a benning pick. The canucks picking Juloevi was communicated on the radio by linden.

this wording makes it clear who’s pick it was and who was communicating it to the media instead of trying to lump linden in with the Juloevi pick u less you believe linden was also responsible for that pick.


As for 2017 we are saying bracket made the pick after linden broke the disagreement between benning and bracket. Not that linden was scouting.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

you legit say “who said linden was making the scouting calls in 2016” and follow it up with the pick was propelled by Benning (and linden whom I heard....)

you are trying to lump linden in with bennings choice of taking juloevi to deflect criticism of benning on the pick and put some on linden.


If that’s not your intention how about wording it:
No one is arguing that Juloevi was a benning pick. The canucks picking Juloevi was communicated on the radio by linden.

this wording makes it clear who’s pick it was and who was communicating it to the media instead of trying to lump linden in with the Juloevi pick u less you believe linden was also responsible for that pick.


As for 2017 we are saying bracket made the pick after linden broke the disagreement between benning and bracket. Not that linden was scouting.

I'm not deflecting off Bennings picking Juolevi at all, and if you dont think Linden endorsed it, fine.(even though its common knowledge that Linden was in Bennings corner at this time)......At the end of the day, every single first round pick since 2014 the Canucks have made is Bennings pick...He makes the executive decision...end of story.

"While those descriptions might make Canucks fans salivate, they’re well aware of the team’s need to find a stud defenceman. So is the team, and Linden repeated something he’s said before prior to seeing the lottery results – he said the only way NHL teams get top-4 defencemen now is through the draft.
Earlier this season, Jim Benning said teams that win the Stanley Cup all have a clear number one guy on the blue line.
Clearly Benning and Linden want a defenceman. But how badly?"..Daily Hive 2017.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

As we know, Linden is the guy who would personally make scouting trips down the stretch drive instead of gearing up for the trade deadline at the end of a lost season. Also the one who kept insisting on swapping out futures to take on further ballast. This is what all presidents do, right? I think most teams don't even have general managers, come to think of it.

We are not at war with Eurasia! We are, and always have been, at war with Eastasia!

Linden is long gone...Bennings moves after Lindens departure, are arguably, some of his best.