Speculation: 2016 Deadline Sellapaloza Thread | 2/29 3PM | (Proposals, Blog Rumors, etc. here)

[CBJSlash]

Multiple years left on these guys deals halted any action on them. We shouldn't be surprised. Taking back a Colin Wilson type of contract was what it would take to get a good prospect and pick. We are better off keeping him.

It wouldn't shock me if we still bought out Clarkson even though it's minimal savings just to turn the page.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Multiple years left on these guys deals halted any action on them. We shouldn't be surprised. Taking back a Colin Wilson type of contract was what it would take to get a good prospect and pick. We are better off keeping him.

It's funny because for close to a month, all the pundits were saying that we'd never again see 1sts and prospects being traded for rentals; that everyone buying was looking to acquire term.

Then exactly the opposite happened.

 

[blahblah]

So in the end, the CBJ were NEITHER buyers NOR sellers.

We were sellers of goods that the buyers didn't want for the price.

 

[EspenK]

So as it sits going into summer, GMJK has some decisions to make. Does he force a bridge deal on Jones? What is Karlsson worth? Who does he trade to make some space? Can he keep the young kids relatively intact?

I have a feeling we're going to lose a piece we don't want to give up in the offseason to solve the cap issues. Guess we'll see if a few months.

No chance.

I'm thinking the answer is somewhat in the middle closer to what Forepar was saying. Buyout of Tyutin, Boll and/or Campbell may be necessary. I was just looking at my spreadsheet and without any roster moves we can go 4 mill a year for Jones and be right up against the cap. I'd like to see us lock him up longer term but we may be forced into a bridge with him as well.

 

[Forepar]

The second that Hartnell was acquired in a trade, Jarmo very much became responsible for that contract. No different than when Clarkson was acquired, it no longer became "Can't blame me for what Toronto did!"

The current front office is responsible for Campbell ($1.5), Boll ($1.7), Clarkson ($5.25 w/NTC and NMC), Bourque ($3.33), and McElhinney ($800K) in the dead weight department. That's a shade under $13 million, roughly 20% of the current cap that is completely useless.

Bourque will be gone in 19 games - non-issue. That was part of Wiz dumpback.

C-Mac at $800k - any backup G would cost that much. Korpi in low $700K when with CBJ. You may not like the player, but until Korpi bloomed, neither C-Mac's contract nor presence on the roster was an issue. The bigger issue is the $7.45M cap hit for Bob - please please please get healthy and crazy good again to start 2016-17 (don't care if he plays a minute the remainder of this season). If Bob doesn't play like a stud, it is that contract that is an albatross (although Korpi being on ELC makes it less bothersome).

Campbell - I would have greatly preferred McKenzie/Letestu. Not so much as to contract amount (although a bit high), but simply because Campbell has not been the player we want. He is not doing much to help the cause.

Boll - contract bad, service to club good, next year is last year. Agree with you, but not something I get worked up over. He is receiving Lifetime Achievement Award for service during years when his fights were all there was to watch.

Clarkson - Bad all the way around. I can somewhat tolerate what happened with the Horton deal and the lack of insurance; hindsight bad deal. But worse, FO compounded their mistake x100 by taking Clarkson. He's a 4th liner at best, overpaid by $4M per year, for some reason apparently toxic (at least here!) and we can't dump it - ever. Even a buyout does not garner much - due to structure of contract. I will give you this one every day of the week.

For me, the contracts you cite are overpayment this year by $8.5M, overpayment by maybe $6M next year (simply Bourque being gone)- but someone would have to take those roster spots and be paid $1M at minimum, give or take, so its not $13M, its the difference (ignoring the Clarkson non-economic factor that is hard to quantify).

Is it just me, or does NO ONE ever mention his name in the room? Even when he was playing, he didn't exist.

 

[blahblah]

The second that Hartnell was acquired in a trade, Jarmo very much became responsible for that contract. No different than when Clarkson was acquired, it no longer became "Can't blame me for what Toronto did!"

The current front office is responsible for Campbell ($1.5), Boll ($1.7), Clarkson ($5.25 w/NTC and NMC), Bourque ($3.33), and McElhinney ($800K) in the dead weight department. That's a shade under $13 million, roughly 20% of the current cap that is completely useless.

Referencing Bourque is kind of silly, that were a next reduction for this year and next due to moving Wiz. C-Mac isn't dead weight, you just don't like him. He's done ok for us the previous two season. I wouldn't call Campbell completely useless either.

I notice you left Bob out of the "completely useless" discussion.

I had a post a while ago on under performing contracts, that added up to over 20 million. That was fair and didn't try and prop up the players I like while beating down the GM and players that I don't.

I generally respect your posts, but try and be fair.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Forepar-
Largely agree with everything.

Only thing I would argue (and I agree $800k on Mac isn't an overpay, it just what you gt when you spend so little on a vet) is the backup tender spot was likely a place the CBJ needed to spend more money on coming into the season due to Bob's health. Now long-term we look fine there but I think this team could have still seen 8th place if we would have spend $1.5-1.75M on a good backup for Bob.

Will be an interesting off-season just to see if the team looks into buy-outs - again I think Boll would be the guy with plenty of young forwards. Tyutin I'm not sure of. Maybe see what he looks like next season. Not like he's horrible but you're paying him ok and he's likely a 3rd pairing guy, but if they feel strongly about one of the kids I guess it could happen. Campbell I'm ok with just one more year yet and he's a decent 4th line (no upside) but unless Wild Bill get forced down to 4th line, I would imagine he's back.

 

[Kev22]

The second that Hartnell was acquired in a trade, Jarmo very much became responsible for that contract. No different than when Clarkson was acquired, it no longer became "Can't blame me for what Toronto did!"

The current front office is responsible for Campbell ($1.5), Boll ($1.7), Clarkson ($5.25 w/NTC and NMC), Bourque ($3.33), and McElhinney ($800K) in the dead weight department. That's a shade under $13 million, roughly 20% of the current cap that is completely useless.

I have no issue with Campbell's deal or McElhinney's deal. Neither one really put us in a bad situation. Bourque won't be an issue after the season. Boll's deal is terrible, said it from the day he signed it. He's a 1.7M punching bag, paid to sit in the press box. The biggest issue is Clarkson, something I won't argue with. He was an albatross for Toronto and more so for us.

I hope we don't lose a valuable piece trying to get out of cap hell.

 

[Forepar]

Forepar-
Largely agree with everything.

Only thing I would argue (and I agree $800k on Mac isn't an overpay, it just what you gt when you spend so little on a vet) is the backup tender spot was likely a place the CBJ needed to spend more money on coming into the season due to Bob's health. Now long-term we look fine there but I think this team could have still seen 8th place if we would have spend $1.5-1.75M on a good backup for Bob.

Will be an interesting off-season just to see if the team looks into buy-outs - again I think Boll would be the guy with plenty of young forwards. Tyutin I'm not sure of. Maybe see what he looks like next season. Not like he's horrible but you're paying him ok and he's likely a 3rd pairing guy, but if they feel strongly about one of the kids I guess it could happen. Campbell I'm ok with just one more year yet and he's a decent 4th line (no upside) but unless Wild Bill get forced down to 4th line, I would imagine he's back.

Hadn't looked at it that way as to C-Mac. You have a point - and yes I would take the 8 spot right now with you, even if not a "SC contender" as some would put it. In my opinion, if you are in the playoffs, you are a contender, especially if you have a hot G.

On the other hand, we would not know anything about Korpi yet .

 

[We Want Ten]

Referencing Bourque is kind of silly, that were a next reduction for this year and next due to moving Wiz. C-Mac isn't dead weight, you just don't like him. He's done ok for us the previous two season. I wouldn't call Campbell completely useless either.

I notice you left Bob out of the "completely useless" discussion.

I had a post a while ago on under performing contracts, that added up to over 20 million. That was fair and didn't try and prop up the players I like while beating down the GM and players that I don't.

I generally respect your posts, but try and be fair.

I don't think I can agree with putting Bob in the "completely useless" pile while putting CMac and Campbell in the "not completely useless" pile.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I'm sure we have, I just think the times we do, you say "great point 5150!" quietly to yourself and close the laptop and move on, haha

 

[blahblah]

I don't think I can agree with putting Bob in the "completely useless" pile while putting CMac and Campbell in the "not completely useless" pile.

My point is that there isn't a completely useless pile, just player that have or haven't earned the money on their contract. This tends to turn into some personal favorites contest.

 

[We Want Ten]

My point is that there isn't a completely useless pile, just player that have or haven't earned the money on their contract. This tends to turn into some personal favorites contest.

Gotcha.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Bourque will be gone in 19 games - non-issue. That was part of Wiz dumpback.

C-Mac at $800k - any backup G would cost that much. Korpi in low $700K when with CBJ. You may not like the player, but until Korpi bloomed, neither C-Mac's contract nor presence on the roster was an issue. The bigger issue is the $7.45M cap hit for Bob - please please please get healthy and crazy good again to start 2016-17 (don't care if he plays a minute the remainder of this season). If Bob doesn't play like a stud, it is that contract that is an albatross (although Korpi being on ELC makes it less bothersome).

Campbell - I would have greatly preferred McKenzie/Letestu. Not so much as to contract amount (although a bit high), but simply because Campbell has not been the player we want. He is not doing much to help the cause.

Boll - contract bad, service to club good, next year is last year. Agree with you, but not something I get worked up over. He is receiving Lifetime Achievement Award for service during years when his fights were all there was to watch.

Clarkson - Bad all the way around. I can somewhat tolerate what happened with the Horton deal and the lack of insurance; hindsight bad deal. But worse, FO compounded their mistake x100 by taking Clarkson. He's a 4th liner at best, overpaid by $4M per year, for some reason apparently toxic (at least here!) and we can't dump it - ever. Even a buyout does not garner much - due to structure of contract. I will give you this one every day of the week.

For me, the contracts you cite are overpayment this year by $8.5M, overpayment by maybe $6M next year (simply Bourque being gone)- but someone would have to take those roster spots and be paid $1M at minimum, give or take, so its not $13M, its the difference (ignoring the Clarkson non-economic factor that is hard to quantify).

Is it just me, or does NO ONE ever mention his name in the room? Even when he was playing, he didn't exist.

Referencing Bourque is kind of silly, that were a next reduction for this year and next due to moving Wiz. C-Mac isn't dead weight, you just don't like him. He's done ok for us the previous two season. I wouldn't call Campbell completely useless either.

I notice you left Bob out of the "completely useless" discussion.

I had a post a while ago on under performing contracts, that added up to over 20 million. That was fair and didn't try and prop up the players I like while beating down the GM and players that I don't.

I generally respect your posts, but try and be fair.

I am being fair, although this is colored by my own general "how would I do things?" bias. Which would mean carrying between 41-44 contracts, not using the fourth line as a dumping ground for players who clearly don't have much of anything left, and using a young goalie as a backup.

To me, it's not just as simple as letting Letestu walk for nothing and then replacing him with Campbell. It's why Campbell; why a 31-year-old (at the time) fourth-line center who produces no offense, has generally been below average in the faceoff circle for his career, and who would require a multi-year commitment. Give me $1.5 million and that open spot on my roster, and I'm:
- Penciling Michael Chaput in ($650K), thus saving $850K a year
- Getting a long look at a 23-year-old who is a pending RFA and needs a long look so I know whether to qualify him after the year or not
- Using the free contract spot to give myself some flexibility going into camp, since the possibility exists of someone (like Dante Salituro this year) being worth signing and not wanting to have to move someone to get it done
- Taking the cash savings and adding another scout to the organizational stable, although the cash is there to add three or four

Instead, a past-his-prime Campbell will be around for another year. It's highly unlikely that anyone will want to take him on for any reason, and it's highly unlikely that he'll play at a level in line with his contract. And without having gotten a look Chaput, Sedlak, or Tynan, actual NHL players may be leaving the organization for nothing while being saddled with someone who's not contributing in a positive manner.

 

[EDM]

Seldom do I agree with you Mayor Bee, but on that one you are dead on.

 

[major major]

The second that Hartnell was acquired in a trade, Jarmo very much became responsible for that contract. No different than when Clarkson was acquired, it no longer became "Can't blame me for what Toronto did!"

The current front office is responsible for Campbell ($1.5), Boll ($1.7), Clarkson ($5.25 w/NTC and NMC), Bourque ($3.33), and McElhinney ($800K) in the dead weight department. That's a shade under $13 million, roughly 20% of the current cap that is completely useless.

That's all fine with me as long as you credit Jarmo about 10 mil for dumping Umby and Wiz.

 

[major major]

Tyutin's paycheck has been a bargain considering both his general production and the marketplace as a whole; it's only stopped looking that way because this hasn't been a good year for him. If he rebounds next year to his normal self, then all is well. And if not, then it's another story.

Many of us stopped considering him a reliable second pair D a year+ ago.

 

[blahblah]

I am being fair, although this is colored by my own general "how would I do things?" bias.

I don't think you are. From my position it looks like you are looking at everything from "Nearly everything JK does is wrong" position. You almost never say the good and over emphasize the bad.

I treated Howson far more fairly than you have JK by a huge margin. It's not an important conversation, but I ask you to work on this.

The Campbell analysis is back seat GM'ing over the small stuff. There are quite a few things he's done well in cap management as well, Jenner and Murray being the latest two. The Saad trade was great. We know why he brought in Campbell, it was because of his Cup experience, you wanted to pencil in someone that didn't do crap the previous season. Your objectives didn't align. I wouldn't have been happy penciling in Chaput and I thought he could be "serviceable" the previous season. I saw enough in three game to know that I want Chaput resigned, I didn't need this massively long look you are talking about (assuming that the 23 year old you were talking about)- by the way what you described isn't a long look. It's giving him a roster spot.

I can see both sides of all of this; there is plenty to be critical of JK about. Getting worked up that Campbell getting a spot of Chaput isn't one of them.

Personally I don't think you need anymore justification to have him fired than the Clarkson move.

 

[major major]

I always hated the Campbell signing- word was out before he came here. I'd have preferred if the Jackets didn't sign a vet center at all over Campbell.

But in running with Chaput/Sedlak/Tynan as 4th line C, Jarmo was not going to make folks happy. Chaput was god awful a year ago. And you can tell in the A whether someone's game has grown. You don't need to leave an NHL roster spot blank to figure out if Sedlak et al are worth keeping.

 

[blahblah]

I always hated the Campbell signing- word was out before he came here. I'd have preferred if the Jackets didn't sign a vet center at all over Campbell.

He should have just kept Letestu or D-Mac instead of how he handled it. I am comfortable with Chaput next season if we can move Campbell. I wasn't to start this season.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

The Campbell analysis is back seat GM'ing over the small stuff.

I don't agree with you at all. One very interesting phenomenon is Detroit's history of finding the right players to stay competitive despite drafting late and recently Chicago's ability to continually restock their prospect pool despite making so many deadline trades that cost picks and prospects. Just yesterday Scotty Bowman was interviewed about this very thing. He explained that Chicago, Detroit and now Toronto have spared no expense in hiring scouts and front office staff to continuously find the best talent. The Jackets will never have the funds available that those teams do. They can compete by hiring as many of the best scouts and front office staff as is available and fund it by signing one or two fewer throw-away contracts.

Just imagine the amount of assets an army hired with Clarkson's contract funds could discover? -

 

[Viqsi]

I am being fair, although this is colored by my own general "how would I do things?" bias. Which would mean carrying between 41-44 contracts, not using the fourth line as a dumping ground for players who clearly don't have much of anything left, and using a young goalie as a backup.

To me, it's not just as simple as letting Letestu walk for nothing and then replacing him with Campbell. It's why Campbell; why a 31-year-old (at the time) fourth-line center who produces no offense, has generally been below average in the faceoff circle for his career, and who would require a multi-year commitment. Give me $1.5 million and that open spot on my roster, and I'm:
- Penciling Michael Chaput in ($650K), thus saving $850K a year
- Getting a long look at a 23-year-old who is a pending RFA and needs a long look so I know whether to qualify him after the year or not
- Using the free contract spot to give myself some flexibility going into camp, since the possibility exists of someone (like Dante Salituro this year) being worth signing and not wanting to have to move someone to get it done
- Taking the cash savings and adding another scout to the organizational stable, although the cash is there to add three or four

Instead, a past-his-prime Campbell will be around for another year. It's highly unlikely that anyone will want to take him on for any reason, and it's highly unlikely that he'll play at a level in line with his contract. And without having gotten a look Chaput, Sedlak, or Tynan, actual NHL players may be leaving the organization for nothing while being saddled with someone who's not contributing in a positive manner.

This is pretty close to the approach I would do, except I'd have kept Letestu around regardless because we expected to be a competitive team, and in case getting a look at those guys didn't work out (which, let's be fair, to that point it hadn't worked well at all with Chaput), we have a proven reliable vet we can slot in. And if they do work out, said vet is also proven at other positions as needed.

That's why I really liked Letestu - he was basically our duct-tape patch for nearly any and all possible issues with roster shortcomings. If someone steps up HERE but doesn't step up THERE, we had him to cover the shortfall. And he's a vet who loves the area. That's extremely valuable, IMO - it enables us to easily experiment with giving our kids more responsibility, in a safe and largely pain-free manner. That's the sort of thing one absolutely should keep.

Instead, we have a guy who looked dubious as soon as the contract was announced and if anything has gotten worse since, and when we've tried to move him around things degrade even further. It's extremely disappointing.

* * *​

I don't think you are. From my position it looks like you are looking at everything from "Nearly everything JK does is wrong" position. You almost never say the good and over emphasize the bad.

I treated Howson far more fairly than you have JK by a huge margin. It's not an important conversation, but I ask you to work on this.

The Campbell analysis is back seat GM'ing over the small stuff.

That small stuff matters. Small team-building failures like that building up is a large part of why Howson is no longer our GM.

There are quite a few things he's done well in cap management as well, Jenner and Murray being the latest two. The Saad trade was great.

Concur. If it weren't for the Clarkson trade, I'd rate JK as an improvement in cap management over Howson, for the time being. Still want to see how post-bridge contracts work out.

We know why he brought in Campbell, it was because of his Cup experience, you wanted to pencil in someone that didn't do crap the previous season.

For my part, I care about bottom-six depth guys with Cup experience at the trade deadline, not in the offseason.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Just yesterday Scotty Bowman was interviewed about this very thing. He explained that Chicago, Detroit and now Toronto have spared no expense in hiring scouts and front office staff to continuously find the best talent.

Where were these guys when Josef Boumedienne was scouting Markus Nutivaara?

 

[Viqsi]

Where were these guys when Josef Boumedienne was scouting Markus Nutivaara?

Wake me when Nutivaara actually makes the NHL and becomes an impact player.

Everybody gets guys who look good like that. The question is always whether or not they continue to look good once they get here.

 

[blahblah]

That small stuff matters. Small team-building failures like that building up is a large part of why Howson is no longer our GM.

In this one incident; bringing in a veteran instead of relying on our farm system because you, incorrectly, assumed you were competing for a playoff spot is the small stuff you can't hold a GM accountable for.

Frankly none of the fans were sold on Campbell, I have no idea what the front office saw while scouting him. MB's strategy sucked based on what evidence we had. Having said that, JK's decisions sucked that let us up to that point. Neither of them had a good strategy IMO.

Frankly I think JK is a huge wild card and JD should be doing some soul searching. He's done some good things, he's also done was terrible things. What I got on Howson for is some of the same things I'm starting to get on JK about. Howson didn't recognize players that have far more value to the team than their stats/role. They tend to think they are just easily replaceable part. I think JK is doing the same type of things. As the GM you get worked up over 1 year term on a role player who is lucky to make 1.5 million? Ultimately if you kept D-Mac he'd be rolling off the same time as Campbell will be now and he'd be 300k cheaper. This is the kind of small stuff that ends up being meaningless in the long run. Letestu was far too versatile and important to the head coach to just dump over a year or some loose change. This doesn't even get into their contributions to the locker room.