WC: 2015 — Team Finland

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Lindell would be obviously better than Ristolainen it seems, but I don't see why people say the choise wasn't Mäntylä over Ristolainen. There is no real argument to tell "hey it was Lindell over Risto". People are just saying, because Lindell is doing so well he would actually be likely to be outdoing Ristolainen. That's the reason he is in arguments now. In reality, Mäntylä does't bring any PK or PP or any role / element for the team, that Risto couldn't do well, but RR55 does have properties that Mäntylä doesn't. Therefore, the right pick would be Ristolainen.

Some times, players bring something that others don't, and can be chosen even if they're overall considered as lower value players, but Mäntylä just does't bring anything on the ice that should give him the spot. Only thing I can think of, is that Ristolainen would've had bad attitude to workmanship or something like that, and Mäntylä giving his all, but there is no way we can say that about Ristolainen now, he said that it's honor to be in National team and has always looked like reasonable kid.

As a note, I'm also getting really bored to this.
 
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Lindell would be obviously better than Ristolainen it seems, but I don't see why people say the choise wasn't Mäntylä over Ristolainen.
Like rduck1 said, veteran presence - so RR may never have been threatening Mäntylä's spot.

The point is, the only reason we seem to single out Mäntylä is because the guy is seemingly the easiest to hate. Unless Jalonen comes out and gives us the full account, we're all just guessing and presuming stuff - yet some seem to treat their presumptions as if they were fact.

In reality, we simply don't have the facts. So I guess we can agree that yeah, there isn't much point in continuing this tirade.
 
KJ probably wanted to see, how much Ristolainen can bring to offense. And because he didn't bring much and his defensive game wasn't strong either, Ristolainen was left out. And there's a huge difference between NT game plan and Sabres game plan this season (which wasn't the greatest...), so there would have been too much adjustment to make for Ristolainen.

We can't know, how he would have played. I'm not pleased how Mäntylä has played. Maybe Ristolainen would have been better. But I get why he isn't in the team.
 
ristolainen's club team status is actually not related to whether he would have been good enough to make this team or not, it was to determine whether he was worthy of a direct spot or not. Seems like we have two schools. One thinks yes, because "zomg +20min nhl d-man 4 surah!" and the other sees things as follows - "he's a rookie d-man in a basement organization still cultivating its players. So no, additional showings from the camp are required". And those he didn't sadly deliver - or did, but was not as good as the guys now selected, or seemed like a misplaced cog in jalonen's game plan.

If rr expected a sure spot, he was wrong - as were most of those who made that presumption. And this time round, jalonen did not deem his try-out showings good enough. We'll have to re-evaluate his status next spring if he's available.

This pretty sums up what we've been circling around with for the past days. There's also the difference between you and I - While I actually believe he should've given a green card for the team without having the showcase for it and you on the other hand obviously go with the camp train. However your wrong about RR being a rookie. He had 36 NHL games under his belt prior to 2015-2016 which means he isn't Calder eligible.

here's a newsflash: It's not a game of what ifs. As long as mäntylä doesn't cost us games, he clears the bar. Not by a great margin perhaps, but does so regardless. There may be a defensive lapse or two, but if you start picking his, you need to pick the ones made by the rest as well. And that's such a quagmire that we'll do well if we only count those that actually end up in the gaa column - as people honoring objective practices should do. So that's "if" number one in the wind.

And the second one goes as follows - we only have a supposition that ristolainen would have been better than the designated patsy. However, there's no way to know for sure. So picking out a player and comparing his goings against the imaginary goings of another player in the same situation is not exactly fair. You're playing a fantasy against reality, and only stoners get a pass on that practice.

So even if mäntylä looks like a failure to you, it's a huge logical misstep to argue that ristolainen would have been better, because you really don't have anything better than your own gut feeling to back it up. For that to be possible, they both should have made this squad so we can compare 'em head-to-head. Sadly, that isn't the case, so all we have is mäntylä being mäntylä, and we've won most of our games with him in the lineup and zat's it. We shall see how mäntylä fares when tougher countries start rolling along, but since precognition is not a thing known to the physics of this reality, we'll have to wait and see that far before we make the final call on him.

Simply put, we're not (or no intelligent person should be, at least) valuing mäntylä against the imaginary showings of ristolainen, we're valuing mäntylä for his contribution to the overall team effort, and while he's certainly not our most depended-upon player, thus far he's cleared the bar. To claim otherwise is intellectual dishonesty.

Mäntylä already made a good case for himself in the USA game so I think "so long as" isn't quite the right phrase for this. Also as I stated before that game was the only one so far we have played against a quality country so he's weaknesses haven't had a chance to exactly blossom afterwards, but we will get a first hand opportunity to witness some more in the upcoming days. An old saying "it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch" might just apply here. Of course I'm praying to be wrong.

Ha, I'm not sure how many times I've stated there's no way of knowing what would, could or should have been. Basicly everything debated here is just what you called it, fantasy. For what it comes for this so called "upping the bar", it only seems to me that you've set that bar far lower than the most of the people calling him out. He's been nothing short of a failure up to this day. Even when these selections are made, coach is going with his gut feeling. This seems to apply especially when it comes to leaving RR out, since Finland had no other defender who had as many games in the National League. Basicly leaving him out is actually something that runs against going with the more logical option. Now your own gut is telling you this was a mistake and yet you argue for the sake of arguing, which I find extremely entertaining.

i'm fully aware of these practices and have actually been occasionally calling some coaches *cough*erkka*cough* out because of it - but the very thing is, jalonen has actually shown no display of such behavior, or at the very least, notably less than what warrants the usual suspicion.

He gives a kid a fair chance if he thinks he's deserved it (mind you, he could have easily kept lindell out on sheltered minutes all tournament long or play engren instead of saros tonight), stays on top of the game, sees who's hot (like kemppainen) and gives them more minutes while cutting down or diminishing the overall role of those who are not - even if they're supposed to be a designated heavy hitter (like kontiola).

Only questionable roster move jalonen has done so far is cutting ristolainen. When one pulls the noggin out of the smelly place and takes a gander around, one will hopefully notice that it's a gross outlier against every other call he's got perfectly right. Therefore it doesn't seem so outlandish to think that maybe he didn't get this one all that wrong either.

Of course, if the widest perspective one's ever had in life has been provided by the peephole drilled to the wall of the girls' locker room, it might be difficult to figure out that there are things outside our personal views as well. The fact that we don't know what the supposed good reason for cutting ristolainen was, doesn't mean there isn't one. And given how jalonen appears to be pretty far from a stereotypical coach stuck in his age-old ways, the odds are said reason's there alright.

The reason why we aren't seeing any bias if you compare to Jalonen for Erkka's era is mostly due to the fact this is Kari's first year as the head coach. While Westerlund had reign for 7-8 years. There's not enough sample size to draw conclusions wether Kari is biased towards players or not. I'm willing to give him a pass there. However I'm not actually sure if I agree wether RR was the only guy with question marks regarding of getting a pass or being passed out. Pesonen, Immonen, Aaltonen all had somewhat mediocore seasons. Pesonen wasn't up to KHL challenge and got transferred to SEL where he was actually able to show up on the score sheets (but the leagues are on a different level). Aaltonen hasn't impressed in the WC and the goal from the last game doesn't really change that fact. Also not sure if my memory serves me here, but didn't he get benched in Jokerit for not showing up? Thenagain, would there have been better options? Not really sure. Pulkkinen should've been in the squad but I'm not seeing him either (could be that Detroit didn't let him go).

We are atleast on the same page for what it comes to giving youngster a chance. Both Lindell and Saros were excellent selections and I'm happy that Saros got the 2nd keeper role, allthough I still find it rather odd he hadn't showed up before. Normally coaches circle goalkeepers in the group stage, however the only reason Saros got to play was because Rinne was ill. That is a bit conserning, or might even hindsight of a possibility Jalonen being terrified of losing games and always going with the safest bet. You should have two keepers that are "hot" instead of 1 hot and another warming the bench in these kind of tournaments.

Now to apologise, but I don't live in cyber space so I don't have time with an instant response. Since we both agree that RR should have made the squad I don't see an actual reason to go into this loop hole. And also, apparently unlike you, I prefer to watch hockey rather than spend hours debating about it.
 
However your wrong about RR being a rookie. He had 36 NHL games under his belt prior to 2015-2016 which means he isn't Calder eligible.
"Rookie" is a general term that can be used about any player who's still relatively young and inexperienced (as is another term, "kid", which you also picked on earlier) - Ristolainen is no cagehead, but neither is he a multiple-season vet, so it was an entirely valid expression to use here, since we were not discussing his Calder eligibility.


Mäntylä already made a good case for himself in the USA game so I think "so long as" isn't quite the right phrase for this. Also as I stated before that game was the only one so far we have played against a quality country so he's weaknesses haven't had a chance to exactly blossom afterwards, but we will get a first hand opportunity to witness some more in the upcoming days. An old saying "it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch" might just apply here. Of course I'm praying to be wrong.
Based on the USA game, we should call most of the squad a failure. And if we really start picking on singular lapses as examples of a player's suckiness, there are plenty more "failures" out there than Mäntylä (like Ohtamaa and Jaakola) but I don't see anybody picking on 'em. And the guy who made that mistake leading to Bliznak's breakaway in the last game? Barkov. Is he a "failure" now too?

Mäntylä's had a few moments he could have handled better, but so do many other players in this squad. Overall his play is not a gross outlier against the rest of the general performance. Which means he's pretty much performed on the same level as the other guys in a similar role, and that leads to a passing mark. Thus far. It goes without saying that the true test still lies ahead.

To call Mäntylä a failure only really tells us that the one making the claim is highly prejudiced and is therefore simply looking for any ammunition to use against him - while there are plenty other players in the squad who provide chances for similar kind of potshots. Yet we see none taken against them. It's Mäntylä who's become the designated patsy yet the reasons for ending up in such position generally don't hold water when placed under intellectual scrutiny. He has, in other words, become a victim of collective myopia. When enough people call his play bad thanks to an existing prejudice, more people focus on the bad aspects of his play, ignoring all the things he does right (and there are quite some). Combine that with the need of a target for venting the disappointment over the Risto cut, and that creates a chain reaction that feeds on itself. Other famous sufferers include Aki Berg back in the day, and more recently Lasse Kukkonen, though some of that is starting wear off of him.

Of course, this could be avoided if some common sense was applied. Players with such a prominent case of supposed "badness" don't make WHC squads 5+ times under various coaches if they're really are as bad as people paint them to be. Yes, they may be prone to defensive lapses every once in a while, but most likely they make up for it for doing a ton of little things right. Pro coaches pay attention to those, an untrained eye may not.


Even when these selections are made, coach is going with his gut feeling. This seems to apply especially when it comes to leaving RR out, since Finland had no other defender who had as many games in the National League. Basicly leaving him out is actually something that runs against going with the more logical option. Now your own gut is telling you this was a mistake and yet you argue for the sake of arguing, which I find extremely entertaining.
Here we go again. I wouldn't have picked RR on a gut feeling. I would've picked him based on what I saw, using the information available to me displayed via a TV screen and web streams.

However, there is plenty of intel NOT available to me that is readily available to Jalonen. Like how Ristolainen fares in practice, how he behaves in the locker room, what are his own aspirations if he makes this team and how do they fit against the general game plan Jalonen has in mind.

If I knew all that stuff and still would've agreed that RR should have made the squad, then I could say that Jalonen made a mistake. But I don't, so all I can say is maybe he did a mistake, maybe he didn't. And with the way things are right now, I'm starting to think that maybe he didn't after all. I generally don't just go with my gut if I can use the information available, and while sceptical before the games, right now said information suggests that Jalonen had better information than me - so I really can't fault him for his choices.

And also, if Jalonen just overlooks all those things and simply takes a superficial gander at Ristolainen's NHL game log, he's NOT doing his job properly. What you're really doing here is that you're demanding Jalonen makes his picks based on what YOU (and to some extent, people in those Internet polls) know, instead of what he knows.

The reason I'm arguing is because I don't see this case so clear cut. While a case can be made for the inclusion of Ristolainen, it's also somewhat narrow-minded to call his exclusion a mistake. It's one of those things that can't be simply marked black or white, but falls somewhere within the grey area. And currently it's starting to look like Jalonen's standing somewhere in the lighter shade of it, as the team as a whole (including everybody's favorite chew toy Mäntylä) plays pretty much the way he's asking it to play - and then some.

To sum it up, this whole debate over both Ristolainen getting cut being wrong and Mäntylä being supposedly bad is because most people can't think outside their personal perspective. They assume that all they see is all there is.


The reason why we aren't seeing any bias if you compare to Jalonen for Erkka's era is mostly due to the fact this is Kari's first year as the head coach. While Westerlund had reign for 7-8 years. There's not enough sample size to draw conclusions wether Kari is biased towards players or not. I'm willing to give him a pass there. However I'm not actually sure if I agree wether RR was the only guy with question marks regarding of getting a pass or being passed out. Pesonen, Immonen, Aaltonen all had somewhat mediocore seasons. Pesonen wasn't up to KHL challenge and got transferred to SEL where he was actually able to show up on the score sheets (but the leagues are on a different level). Aaltonen hasn't impressed in the WC and the goal from the last game doesn't really change that fact. Also not sure if my memory serves me here, but didn't he get benched in Jokerit for not showing up? Thenagain, would there have been better options? Not really sure. Pulkkinen should've been in the squad but I'm not seeing him either (could be that Detroit didn't let him go).
Pulkkinen is in the AHL playoffs and running deep, so that's all we need to talk about him. About there being better players available, well, Jalonen cut Salminen early and there was some talk about Palola, but since they play on the same level as Aaltonen and Pesonen and you just questioned their club team achievements, I guess we can't really bring 'em up either.

There's nothing unusual about players who have shown their worth in the past passing the selection easier than newcomers. However, Jalonen's treatment of guys like Lindell and Jokipakka (and Saros, because he still could have picked more seasoned not to mention familiar Engren to man the net) tell us that he wasn't stacking the deck sky high against them. Actually, based on their treatment it appears to be have been relatively low, so an NHL stud you figure Ristolainen is should have cleared it with no great difficulty.

Yet he didn't - reasons known to Jalonen and the rest of his management team alone. But the writing's on the wall, and it pretty clearly states us it wasn't prejudice against the player type Ristolainen represents. So whatever the reason that ended up being RR's demise, it must have been better than that. Save for perhaps Rasse peeing in Jalonen's morning cereal or getting busy with his daughter.
 
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How long will he be ill?
You know, despite mankind practicing medicine for about 10 000 years, that's still quite a tall question to answer. The best estimate can be given by the people treating him, and I doubt any of 'em haunt this joint.

He'll be back in net when he's healthy. Which he apparently already is.
 
Wow, KoJo finally got his **** together and scratched Ohtamaa and gave up that ridiculous 8 D-men strategy!
 
Wow, KoJo finally got his **** together and scratched Ohtamaa and gave up that ridiculous 8 D-men strategy!
Oh, you mean that "ridiculous" 8 d-men strategy that just led to the modern WHC team shutout record?

Ohtamaa is apparently aside as some kind of precaution, btw.
 
At least KJ finally realised during the OT that we only have two capable centers, Kontiola was out there once I think and Immonen didn't get any minutes.
 
Do you guys think this is the last time we'll see Immonen playing at World Championship tournament level of competition? He has some special abilities like face offs and penalty shots and quite solid defensively, but just too slow and his lines/line mates never excel offensively probably because of him. Personally I think it's probably his last time unless we are in some serious center trouble some year.

Interesting about Kontiola also. I'm sure it's just a confidence issue on him and his next KHL season might be a lot better. Maybe that back injury or something is still on and will be healed or have surgery on it during the summer.
 
Do you guys think this is the last time we'll see Immonen playing at World Championship tournament level of competition? He has some special abilities like face offs and penalty shots and quite solid defensively, but just too slow and his lines/line mates never excel offensively probably because of him. Personally I think it's probably his last time unless we are in some serious center trouble some year.

Interesting about Kontiola also. I'm sure it's just a confidence issue on him and his next KHL season might be a lot better. Maybe that back injury or something is still on and will be healed or have surgery on it during the summer.

Immonen and Kontiola pretty much about time to kick to kill.

Nothing less and nothing more.
 
But no rest for the wicked.

You have gave plenty of lip to the Finland chaps this time around.

Plenty more than they ever deserved this time around, and comin' this far in the tournament and without only one freakin' loss against the U.S.A.

Can you ever consider Finland a good hockey team - can ya?
 
It must be about the kill your idols syndrome (I hope!) otherwise i would be worried ...
 
Lineup today per Jatkoaika

Tuomo Ruutu - Petri Kontiola - Ossi Louhivaara
Sami Lepistö - Juuso Hietanen

Jussi Jokinen - Aleksander Barkov - Joonas Donskoi
Anssi Salmela - Esa Lindell

Antti Pihlström- Jarkko Immonen - Leo Komarov
Tuukka Mäntylä - Jyrki Jokipakka

Janne Pesonen - Joonas Kemppainen - Juhamatti Aaltonen
Topi Jaakola - Atte Ohtamaa

Hartikainen, Hytönen out.
 
They keep changing the guy in the first line but its more about Ruutu and Kontiola than anyone else. I'd rather see Hartikainen - Hytönen - Louhivaara.

Well, hope it clicks this time and Konna gets something other than bad passes done.
 
Let's not hope nothing but physical game and few good passes from Ruutu. But Kontiola has the spot to be one of the offensive leaders of the team, but hasn't been showing that. I put that on the injury earlier which affected his performances in NA and low self confidence. With that combo you can't be any kind of a leader. Kontiola has secretly been one of my favorite Lion players with his skill, but for now he's just a shadow from the past. I don't know if he can step up anymore at the tourney, but I hope his line gets goals and the confidence and more goals follow.
 
They keep changing the guy in the first line but its more about Ruutu and Kontiola than anyone else. I'd rather see Hartikainen - Hytönen - Louhivaara.

Well, hope it clicks this time and Konna gets something other than bad passes done.

I'd also rather have Hytönen & Hartikainen instead of Konna & Ruutu.

If we try to think how KJ might be thinking. Well this is his first year as the head coach and if he pisses of some of our long time vet players right away it might spread like cancer and soon all will be declining. There's also a chance that Ruutu & Konna are stronger next season and we really want them in the team then.

Though let's not forget the fact that Ruutu=medal, so let's just keep him in the line up :).
 
Lineup today per Jatkoaika

Tuomo Ruutu - Petri Kontiola - Ossi Louhivaara
Sami Lepistö - Juuso Hietanen

Jussi Jokinen - Aleksander Barkov - Joonas Donskoi
Anssi Salmela - Esa Lindell

Antti Pihlström- Jarkko Immonen - Leo Komarov
Tuukka Mäntylä - Jyrki Jokipakka

Janne Pesonen - Joonas Kemppainen - Juhamatti Aaltonen
Topi Jaakola - Atte Ohtamaa

Hartikainen, Hytönen out.

That 1st line is weak and really is our 3th/4th line.
 
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