WJC: 2015 — USA Roster Talk II

[Habnot]

If neither player could beat out a inexperienced prep school players, as you put it, then I can't imagine they would have made a difference in today's game.

Sure assuming that this was a fair selection process....you can't beat out pre-selected players.

 

[DrJenniferHanson]

Hey William, do you think Dvorak should have been on the roster?

I'm not William and I'm a biased London fan, but I'll say this:

*Dvorak has 2.5 PPG (50PT/20GP) in November and December.
*Dvorak is 3rd in OHL scoring
*Dvorak is one of the best defensive centres and penalty killers in the OHL
*This is more of a London-specific point, and I know it's not entirely apples-to-apples, but:
18 year old season (Hunter Era)
1 Kane 2.50
2 Tavares 1.86
3 Dvorak 1.85*
4 Perry 1.71
5 Domi 1.52
6 Schremp 1.45
7 Kadri 1.39
8 Horvat 1.37
9 Bolland 1.29
10 Carlson 1.29

He can play all 4 lines effectively. In fact, his 4th line play with London last season is what got him drafted in the 2nd round despite missing majority of the season with a torn ACL.

I strongly believe USA missed the boat, but I'll admit I'm biased for London.

 

[William H Bonney]

By all accounts McCarron had a good December camp but was not ever given good line mates. Clearly was out looking in.

Can I see those accounts? Most that were there said he underwhelmed and I saw the same in the exhibitions. Drop the conspiracy theory, though. If they didn't want to consider him they wouldn't have invited him. It's USAH - there wouldn't be an uproar they'd have to defend by leaving him out. This isn't Team Canada.

You can try to rationalize this all you want but when you select s a prep school player who's season is just starting and probably played under 10 games by the time the camps open over a player that played over 20 games and producing at 1 1.6 ppg clip in a vastly superior caliber - you have a big selection process issue that must manifest itself in the selection of other players. (Woods, Louis, Compher, Motte COMBINED HAD 1 ASSIST).

McCarron, Erne, Cassels would of made a difference.

Where did I try to rationalize? I said they overthink things. I said they made head scratching decisions. They screwed up.

Would I have preferred those players (or others) over Wood and Louis? For sure. Would they have made a difference? I'm not confident given the poor coaching. But it would have at least made more sense.

 

[Beerz]

The fact that these short camps have such an emphasis on who makes the team might be one of the problems.

Whole body of work and the ability to judge a players talent and fit on a team should be the strongest consideration.

The fact that guys like Erne, McCarron and Bailey were left off is an absolute joke.

 

[PM]

I'll admit I know next to nothing about the USNTDP and how they pick their teams but I thought it was interesting that I saw mentioned either in this thread or another that they lean on picking players who come through their program over American players in the CHL. Is that true? Being a Canucks fan I was hoping that Cassels would make the final team given his play this year and when he was cut I just assumed that the US roster was stacked and that the bottom 6 players who beat him out would do a better job but that really does suck for the players if that kind of thing goes into the selection. I hate when teams don't pick the best team possible, which Team Canada is notorious for as well. You would think that it would harbour some resentment from the CHL guys who get cut if they get called upon in the future for the WC by Team USA.

 

[William H Bonney]

The fact that these short camps have such an emphasis on who makes the team might be one of the problems.

Whole body of work and the ability to judge a players talent and fit on a team should be the strongest consideration.

The fact that guys like Erne, McCarron and Bailey were left off is an absolute joke.

One of my issues with the camps (at least this one) is too much precedence is placed on chemistry from the summer camp.

They also screwed up the "fit" part for sure. Guys like Wood and Louis didn't fit into any role on this team (which was obvious) and Motte was given a role in August he didn't deserve.

I think folks are going to crazy about Erne though. I would have preferred him there over some of the others but lets not forget he didn't look any better than guys like Wood, Louis or Motte in last year's tournament.

 

[Habnot]

Can I see those accounts? Most that were there said he underwhelmed and I saw the same in the exhibitions. Drop the conspiracy theory, though. If they didn't want to consider him they wouldn't have invited him. It's USAH - there wouldn't be an uproar they'd have to defend by leaving him out. This isn't Team Canada.

Dougherty was listed as the extra defenseman on Team USA's line chart for Friday's exhibition at BU and saw very little ice time. Erne saw slightly more ice time, but didn't do anything to stand out. McCarron looked good at times, exhibiting an explosive first stride and a mean streak to his game. It would seem that USA Hockey's brass thought the team had enough power forwards who can grind down low on their top lines.

And that was with him playing with lesser players - they had him slotted as a mucker.

 

[AmericanDream]

It is always easy to complain when a tournament ends but I can attest to the fact that most of us based off this roster felt this team was good enough to win. I usually say for the US it comes down to goaltending and coaching for us to win. Goaltending wasn't john Gibson level but good enough to advance. Coaching wasn't on par which is crazy considering Osiecki had been a part of 3 previous teams that won a medal.

For me it comes down to adjustments. Housley and Blais made them at the right times and the correct ones...here I saw a reluctance to go to common sense changes and I will blame coaching on that. I didnt see the fire or hunger from this team...maybe with so few returning players that fire just wasn't there. This is another let down no doubt about it. And from what I saw game in and game out, Larkin is a man amongst boys...he, DeAngelo, and Fasching showed me there heart was on their sleeves all tourney long...just needed more of that.

So again we get to look forward to another year of under performing and disappointing finishes. One day USA Hockey will wake up and take this more serious with its coaching and selection teams as the same old same old isnt working like it should considering the talent we have at our disposal. Bylsma now becomes the most logical choice to coach next year.

 

[William H Bonney]

Dougherty was listed as the extra defenseman on Team USA's line chart for Friday's exhibition at BU and saw very little ice time. Erne saw slightly more ice time, but didn't do anything to stand out. McCarron looked good at times, exhibiting an explosive first stride and a mean streak to his game. It would seem that USA Hockey's brass thought the team had enough power forwards who can grind down low on their top lines.

And that was with him playing with lesser players - they had him slotted as a mucker.

You found one blogger that thought he looked good at times - hardly anything close to what you've claimed.

Again, I'd rather have had him there over others but no need to falsify his case.

 

[Habnot]

It is always easy to complain when a tournament ends but I can attest to the fact that most of us based off this roster felt this team was good enough to win. I usually say for the US it comes down to goaltending and coaching for us to win. Goaltending wasn't john Gibson level but good enough to advance. Coaching wasn't on par which is crazy considering Osiecki had been a part of 3 previous teams that won a medal.

For me it comes down to adjustments. Housley and Blais made them at the right times and the correct ones...here I saw a reluctance to go to common sense changes and I will blame coaching on that. I didnt see the fire or hunger from this team...maybe with so few returning players that fire just wasn't there. This is another let down no doubt about it. And from what I saw game in and game out, Larkin is a man amongst boys...he, DeAngelo, and Fasching showed me there heart was on their sleeves all tourney long...just needed more of that.

So again we get to look forward to another year of under performing and disappointing finishes. One day USA Hockey will wake up and take this more serious with its coaching and selection teams as the same old same old isnt working like it should considering the talent we have at our disposal. Bylsma now becomes the most logical choice to coach next year.

Did you watch today's game? How do you blame coaching when you dominate a game? Poor finishing and indiscipline in big games in a short tournament is not on coaching - it's more on player selection.

 

[XX]

I thought it was interesting that I saw mentioned either in this thread or another that they lean on picking players who come through their program over American players in the CHL. Is that true

Yep. Screwed over Henrik Samuelsson, now Christian Dvorak for it. Team USA is all about ****** politics.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

McCarron didn't have good camps. He was an early cut at the summer camp, earned his way back into the December camp and didn't perform. Erne wasn't at the summer camp and wasn't good at the December camp either. Granted, I still would have preferred either of them (plus others) over guys like Wood and Louis.

USAH's biggest problem with the selection process is they overthink things. They think they've found a revelation with Wood that no one is expecting yet he was in over his head just like everyone predicted. They think Louis is some sort of Kane-esque player, yethe's nowhere near as skilled, but then they play him as a checker. They think Motte is a top line forward, even though he's never been that for the NTDP or Michigan, because he road Eichel's coattails in meaningless exhibitions during the summer so they keep ramming that square peg in the round hole all tournament. Just head scratching decisions.

Welcome to the new USA Hockey .

Motte, Luois, Hayden and Smaltz all Blackhawk draft picks. Who's head coach of this team ? Hmmmm ? Smaltz and Hayden were good today but where were they the rest of tournament ?

What did Compher or Mccoshen do all tournament ?

What did the high flying scoring D do all tournament or the 2 pine trees ? Butcher did the best he could possibly play and the 2 young guys the same.



TERRIBLE personnel decisions through out the entire line-up.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

Forgot to add Wood.

Nice player but not ready for this tournament

 

[Habnot]

You found one blogger that thought he looked good at times - hardly anything close to what you've claimed.

Again, I'd rather have had him there over others but no need to falsify his case.

I'm not trying to falsify his case - he didn't have a shot at the selection camp. He wasn't even a late cut - they slotted him in a role and disregarded his season with London which clearly indicated that he could finish, setup guys and play with skilled players - which is exactly what Eichel needed more off.

Canada has learned the painful lesson of not bringing enough skilled guys - it limits your adjustments in single elimination games. Canada started bringing a bunch of character/size guys trying to build a perfect team instead of selecting the best players. 5 years not winning gold but it took Brent Sutter to tell them they did not have enough skill to win.

The US completely dominated the game today and having more proven point producers on this team would of made a difference. This is a flawed selection process that needs to be reviewed.

Welcome to the new USA Hockey .

Motte, Luois, Hayden and Smaltz all Blackhawk draft picks. Who's head coach of this team ? Hmmmm ? Smaltz and Hayden were good today but where were they the rest of tournament ?

What did Compher or Mccoshen do all tournament ?

What did the high flying scoring D do all tournament or the 2 pine trees ? Butcher did the best he could possibly play and the 2 young guys the same.



TERRIBLE personnel decisions through out the entire line-up.

Well said - especially the Hawks connection.

 

[William H Bonney]

I'm not trying to falsify his case - he didn't have a shot at the selection camp. He wasn't even a late cut - they slotted him in a role and disregarded his season with London which clearly indicated that he could finish, setup guys and play with skilled players - which is exactly what Eichel needed more off.

My point was that he didn't have a good camp, which is true. Now you can certainly make the point that he was misused (and I would agree) but that wasn't your original point.

Osiecki and company were off in a lot of the roles/players they selected so I wouldn't be so surprised they did the same to McCarron.

 

[Habnot]

My point was that he didn't have a good camp, which is true. Now you can certainly make the point that he was misused (and I would agree) but that wasn't your original point.

Osiecki and company were off in a lot of the roles/players they selected so I wouldn't be so surprised they did the same to McCarron.

If you can point me to articles that he had a poor selection camp and not posters on boards please?

 

[William H Bonney]

If you can point me to articles that he had a poor selection camp and not posters on boards please?

Read twitter of those at the camp. It's USAH - McCarron, or anyone, getting cut doesn't generate much in the way of articles.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

If you can point me to articles that he had a poor selection camp and not posters on boards please?

I went to two days of camp, and McCarron didn't look great. He was a step slower than everyone out on the ice. USA Hockey loves their speed and skating in players. It's the exact same reason Henrik Sameulsson was never on the team, despite putting up big numbers.

 

[Mickey the mouse]

If you can point me to articles that he had a poor selection camp and not posters on boards please?

I think 5 or 6 players that didn't attend summer camp were on the final roster.

So building team chemistry is a crock of crap !

Why have summer camp at all ?

 

[Habnot]

Read twitter of those at the camp. It's USAH - McCarron, or anyone, getting cut doesn't generate much in the way of articles.

So you can't say he had a bad camp just as we can't say he had a good camp.

We can safely assume it didn't matter.

 

[Bee Sheriff]

Heartbreaking. Go Sweden.

 

[Habnot]

I went to two days of camp, and McCarron didn't look great. He was a step slower than everyone out on the ice. USA Hockey loves their speed and skating in players. It's the exact same reason Henrik Sameulsson was never on the team, despite putting up big numbers.

Makes sense to me - take a 5'7" Louis who has three goals at Miami but can power skate like no one's business over McCarron who is 6'6" and has 41 points in 26 games in the OHL and is known as a good skater for a big man....

 

[SanDogBrewin]

So you can't say he had a bad camp just as we can't say he had a good camp.

We can safely assume it didn't matter.

There were posters on here that were at the camp and saw how he played. And there was what was written about his play at camp. What more were you looking for ?

If that information is not enough for you then that's too bad.

 

[Rekus]

Makes sense to me - take a 5'7" Louis who has three goals at Miami but can power skate like no one's business over McCarron who is 6'6" and has 41 points in 26 games in the OHL and is known as a good skater for a big man....

The skating and speed is useless if not well applied. They needed more than 1.2 line (Eichel, larkin, milano' Tuch and Matthews) to win. Bringing in Woods over McCarron was a complete and utter joke. Mccarron would have been there to battle and feed the puck to Eichel and Milano or Larkin. Defense looked overwhelmed at the times, particularly against Canada. USAH needs to rethink their selection policies and stop selecting hype and pick the best players period.

 

[Oak]

Billy,

You know USA hockey pretty well.

The integrity and honesty has been blemished with the passing of Coach Tim Taylor, God rest his soul.

It's no longer an honest system. It's a good old boy network with "who you know, what college are you alimni of ( Wisconsin ). who owns your rights and which NHl team are you associated with". From coaching staff to players.

No different than life ! Not what you know but who you know.

Hopefully the players that deserve to be there don't get hurt by the politics

Sums up the problem perfectly. Sad state of affairs with USA hockey.