Salary Cap: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster Building / Proposal Thread Part XII

[Mac n Gs]

Can't wait for the organization to start moving...
I would claim Colby Robak or Dylan Olsen and send Glass to waivers. Then include John Moore in a package for a bottom liner and go to the PO with Hunwick and Robak alternating for the 6th D spot.
Both Olsen and Robak are LH and for free, we should definately try with one of them.

Hmmm Robak actually seems pretty interesting. If he's an upgrade over JMoore or Hunwick, I'm all for giving it a shot.

 

[RangerBoy]

These are all pending UFA's. It will just be a rental, which will only count for small portion of the cap. Pro-rated...

I am referring to Thornton or Semin or Gardiner or any of the other players brought up on this board. Players with big $$$ and term. The swoonie is going lower and its not rebounding in the next few months. Goldman Sachs put out a report about the swoonie being 71 cents in 2017. I believe it was Goldman. 2 to 3 more years. It's the beginning of 2015.

 

[Ola]

RB I agree for sure. There are no easy fixes of magnitude for this team. I mean sure a 4th lineer of some sort might help, but it's marginal. Some depth never hurts, but it don't make a difference.

If we wanna improve Slats gotta get to work. JT Miller, John Moore, Hagelin, Zucc, Skjei, McIlrath, Buch, Duke. They are good young assets that we can consider moving. Why should we look for soon to be UFAs in return? Or a vet with a contract we can't afford?

It's going to be very hard for Slats to pull something off. But I would like to see him look at a Jimmy Hayes not a Chris Stewart. And so forth. A cheap young player who fits our need. From my POV it makes sense to trade Hagelin for Jimmy Hayes, not a "Andrew Ladd".

 

[Ola]

Who knows what the going rate is at the deadline, I mean sure I'd like sacrifize a Oscar Lindberg and Danny Kristo for a rental (think Gabby, Vanek and co last year), we have some cap room.

 

[Raspewtin]

Okay, it's early, I'm tired. I don't want to leave for work in twenty minutes, so correct me if I'm wrong.

The basis of arguments are:

1. Santorelli has a better p/60 so he's going to be better on the Rangers than Vermette would be, despite Vermette having a hand in 11% more of his team's goals than Santorelli does.

Yeah, because he's in most of his team's offensive situations. Which he wouldn't be here.

2. Faceoffs don't matter because who gives a ****.

My stance on faceoffs isn't new and not exclusive to this debate.

3. You can post on hunches and say that Santorelli is probably a 40 point player on the Rangers, despite not being on a 40 point pace this year, and only recording more than 40 points one whole time in his NHL career. Meanwhile, Vermette who is on a 52 (or so, too lazy to calculate exactly) point pace, and has recorded 50 or more points twice, and 40 or more points four times in his NHL career. You're hunches > My hunches, I guess

Santorelli is on pace for 41 points...and was on pace for 50 last year....

4. Over the stats of points/game I posted over five years, we're only looking at three of them, and ignoring Santorelli's horrible year just because. And ignoring Vermette's good year because we can't not take a year away from both players, and have it be a fair comparison. Might as well ignore one guy's worst, and one guy's best. Fair. For sure. (Even though Vermette is on pace to eclipse last year's stats this year, but that's alright).

Vermette was a much better hockey player last year than this year though.

You put so much weight into p/60... Vermette's at a 2, Santorelli is at a 2.1. Huge discrepancy there, and enough to maintain that Santorelli will be a ton better on the Rangers than Vermette will be.

Vermette's is 1.67...... where did you get 2 from?

Sanotrelli's actually dropped with the entire Leafs team slumping to 1.62....whoops. GJ Leafs.

And I've NUMEROUS times made arguments for Santorelli without p/60. You just choose to ignore them.

You put so much weight into GF%... Vermette's at a 43.9% (5.8% relative), Santorelli is at a 55.7% (9.8%). Certainly much better than Santorelli, but they're both positive relative to the rest of their team.

Do you mean better for Santorelli? That's CONSIDERABLY better, by like a lot.

And Antoine Vermette is 40.4%...... and Santorelli is 50.9. Santorelli is 3rd among forwards on his team and Vermette is 3rd worst among Arizona forwards with 400 minutes.

Where are you getting these stats?...

stats

Didn't I make a post (in response to you) on these EXACT stats, that you just replied with "well I trust NHL GMs"?

I'd like it if you stuck to things you have a chance in. P/60 is off the table considering the 0.1 difference between the two players.

Hardly.

Faceoffs should be on the table, but whatever. They're not important to you.

They are on the table but I care a lot less about them than you. Since they're glorified puck battles.

Wanna talk about the 4% discrep in relative goals for? Fine. Want to talk about the zone starts? Fine.

My favorite part is I DID talk about all of this and you called me an armchair GM.

I do NOT want to hear about p/60 ever again though (and before you bring it up, the p/60 stat I posted was all situations. The same 0.1 discrepancy exists when you only look at 5v5)

P/60 isn't very useful in all situations. I only use them at ES (where Santorelli's is currently worse).

 

[Trxjw]

I am referring to Thornton or Semin or Gardiner or any of the other players brought up on this board. Players with big $$$ and term. The swoonie is going lower and its not rebounding in the next few months. Goldman Sachs put out a report about the swoonie being 71 cents in 2017. I believe it was Goldman. 2 to 3 more years. It's the beginning of 2015.

I'm actually starting to think the Rangers may try and swing some pieces for a guy on a nice deal, a la Kevin Klein last season. As the number of guys with FA status decreases on the roster, the easier it becomes to figure out just who can stay and who can go.

 

[bernmeister]

dude

You have MSL on a line with McIlrath.

Really, think about it.

I'm open to some reworking the lines.
I'd prefer Hrivik promoted on a checking line (these games vs. Islanders prove we need to be bigger) but place for Marty required pro tempore.
Sure Dylan can't speed up to MSL but Marty can slow his game, maybe turn it on in spots.

as to McIlrath,I would bet he'd be no worse than Glass, could d some easy minutes as circumstances allow at 3RD with min clear the crease duties, and as noted, he would be required to upgrade at enforcer.

 

[bernmeister]

What do you guys think it would take to get JVR (who grew up a huge Ranger fan) and his great contract to NYR? I think it starts with Kreider, add our two 2015 2nds and we'd probably have to add a bit more. I just know that Step and JVR would have great chemistry though, they're buddies.

Don't want to give up Kreider.

JVR would take an emperor's ransom. Would love to use same to move Girardi.
Not sure of any combo that is a win win.

 

[silverfish]

Yeah, because he's in most of his team's offensive situations. Which he wouldn't be here.

My stance on faceoffs isn't new and not exclusive to this debate.

Santorelli is on pace for 41 points...and was on pace for 50 last year....

Vermette was a much better hockey player last year than this year though.

Vermette's is 1.67...... where did you get 2 from?

Sanotrelli's actually dropped with the entire Leafs team slumping to 1.62....whoops. GJ Leafs.

And I've NUMEROUS times made arguments for Santorelli without p/60. You just choose to ignore them.

Do you mean better for Santorelli? That's CONSIDERABLY better, by like a lot.

And Antoine Vermette is 40.4%...... and Santorelli is 50.9. Santorelli is 3rd among forwards on his team and Vermette is 3rd worst among Arizona forwards with 400 minutes.

Where are you getting these stats?...

Didn't I make a post (in response to you) on these EXACT stats, that you just replied with "well I trust NHL GMs"?

Hardly.

They are on the table but I care a lot less about them than you. Since they're glorified puck battles.

My favorite part is I DID talk about all of this and you called me an armchair GM.

P/60 isn't very useful in all situations. I only use them at ES (where Santorelli's is currently worse).

I have no intentions of keeping this going. We are going in circles. I think Vermette is better. You think Santorelli is better. I suppose we can come back and compare their respective stats on their new teams at the end of the season?

I got my stats from War-on-Ice, all situations, as I noted (not War-On-Ice, but all situations unless otherwise stated) Here are screenshots of the 5v5 since we're now ignoring all situation stats, because **** Vermette and his usefulness on the power play, too.

Uh, oh. Vermette has the better CF% and a lower PDO. Might want to check yourself, Ras

 

[Ex Officer Friendly]

3. You can post on hunches and say that Santorelli is probably a 40 point player on the Rangers, despite not being on a 40 point pace this year, and only recording more than 40 points one whole time in his NHL career. Meanwhile, Vermette who is on a 52 (or so, too lazy to calculate exactly) point pace, and has recorded 50 or more points twice, and 40 or more points four times in his NHL career. You're hunches > My hunches, I guess

My guess is the reason that he said that was because Santorelli is already playing in 2nd/3rd line checking roles. Specifically in Vancouver he was the third line center behind Kesler and Sedin. Taking Vermette who is currently on the Arizona top line and shifting him to a more defensive role, would more than likely bring his point totals down.

 

[silverfish]

My guess is the reason that he said that was because Santorelli is already playing in 2nd/3rd line checking roles. Specifically in Vancouver he was the third line center behind Kesler and Sedin. Taking Vermette who is currently on the Arizona top line and shifting him to a more defensive role, would more than likely bring his point totals down.

Which he based pretty much off of the points/60 statistic that has a 0.1 discrepancy between the two players.

 

[Raspewtin]

I have no intentions of keeping this going. We are going in circles. I think Vermette is better. You think Santorelli is better. I suppose we can come back and compare their respective stats on their new teams at the end of the season?

Yep, regardless I want to see either of them raise the cup in a Rangers uniform.

I got my stats from War-on-Ice, all situations, as I noted (not War-On-Ice, but all situations unless otherwise stated) Here are screenshots of the 5v5 since we're now ignoring all situation stats, because **** Vermette and his usefulness on the power play, too.

Santorelli doesn't get PP time so I thought I'd make it fair.

Uh, oh. Vermette has the better CF% and a lower PDO. Might want to check yourself, Ras

Since you love rel stats, Santorelli's is still higher, so I don't have anything to check . The Leafs (usual) meteoric collapse has ruined the stats of every player on the team, yet Santorelli is still one of their best forwards. And Vermette's rel corsi is exactly 0. And Santorelli's is 5.2 .

Yeah I'm done too.

Which he based pretty much off of the points/60 statistic that has a 0.1 discrepancy between the two players.

Santorelli's is currently worse than Vermette's.

Including Vermette's PP P/60 skews it in his favor because Santorelli doesn't get regular PP time.

 

[silverfish]

Santorelli doesn't get PP time so I thought I'd make it fair.

He'd get PP time if he was a better player

 

[RangerBoy]

Who knows what the going rate is at the deadline, I mean sure I'd like sacrifize a Oscar Lindberg and Danny Kristo for a rental (think Gabby, Vanek and co last year), we have some cap room.

Kristo has zero value.

 

[silverfish]

Brooksie put John Moore on the block this morning. Other blogs picking up on it and spreading it around.

 

[Raspewtin]

Good. Bye Moore.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Brooksie put John Moore on the block this morning. Other blogs picking up on it and spreading it around.

He also suggested looking into the three players that have been talked about around here for the past couple of weeks: Sekera, Methot, and Hejda.

 

[TheTakedown]

After watching last night, here are a few problems:

The round robin on the bottom 6 is really a problem. NONE of these guys know their roles, this includes the vet Hagelin...

Hayes is great, but at this point he's hitting that rookie wall. Luckily we are only half way through the season, and I think there's going to be flexibility for him to either move to wing or sit out a few games. I really do NOT want to move him to wing, but the issue becomes rolling 4 lines if we keep him at center.
I'm not opposed to giving him a Brian Boyle type Role on the 4th line with Dominic Moore either, so that should be considered.

Stempniak NEEDS to be a staple on ONE specific line, The guy has talent, and can score, drives possession, is incredibly versatile, and he should not be traded (probably does not hold much value anyway)...

Hagelin needs a regular winger linemate, because he's losing his way as to how he's supposed to be playing to further the team... His speed is great, but he's not effectively doing anything with that speed... On top of that, since Stempniak, Fast, and Miller have all had that 3rd line spot, he's really been a victim of line changes. I believe this was supposed to be Stempniak, but it doesn't seem solidified yet

3C upgrade is necessary if Hayes is in fact moved from center.

Lastly, and the biggest problem is that the TOP 6 needs to be broken up, and the LW/RW depth needs to be distributed down the lineup...

RWers:
MSL
Stempniak
Zucc
Fast

LWers
Nash
Kreider
Hagelin
Miller

Cs
Stepan
Brassard
Hayes/Vermette
Moore


We HAVE the tools... but we need to spread out how these tools function

Kreider-Stepan-Nash -- Stepan's skills, IQ, and agility need to be complemented by players that do not play perimeter... MSL does not play an active enough game for Stepan, which is why it's time this line gets reunited.

Miller-Brass-Zuccarello -- Let Miller take Poo's spot from last year. Zucc plays fine against 2nd line competition, and worst case you can shelter this line if necessary, but I think Zucc and Brass make up for Miller's deficiencies. You also surround Miller with 2 experienced players.

Hagelin-Hayes/Vermette-MSL -- Let's give Hagelin a ****ING ROLE on this team--GET THE PUCK and get it to MSL... It's no secret Hagelin has hands of stone, so why are we depending on him to actually finish anything here? Secondly, if we get a guy like Vermette, it doesn't mean Hayes cannot play, he just ends up being demoted, and since he's a rookie, that's probably a GOOD thing, especially since he'll be able to play with 2 experienced, defense first guys (see next line)

Hayes/Fast-Moore-Stempniak -- Stempniak has lots of versatility, it's just that given the guys in front of him he ends up on the 4th line. I'm all for swapping him out with MSL, but you can't put MSL on this line regularly. That said, ALL of these guys drive possession, and have the ability to forecheck

Now for the Power Play... It's too top heavy, and if that 1st unit isn't producing, then we don't score, plain and simple.

Stepan-Kreider-Nash -- Let's keep the top line together since they're so solid.
Zucc-Boyle -- Lefty-Right shots, Zucc has the best vision on the team, let him exercise that 5v4

Brassard-Miller-MSL -- Miller can center a PP, we already know that. Brassard and Step don't work well on the PP together. They defer to one another too often and neither shoots enough
McDonagh-Klein/Girardi (yuck) -- i dont know what else to use here... McDonagh is just crap this year, no way around it... the only other option is using John Moore with Girardi...

As for D Pairings, McDonagh needs to start getting 2nd pairing time because Staal is clearly the best defenseman on the team right now. That said, if Boyle isn't up for first pairing minutes, then Staal-Klein WILL BE our top pair, which I'm fine with (sans the lack of offensive play). At that point you HAVE to break up Girardi and McDonagh because you're otherwise stuck with Moore/Hunwick-Boyle as a pairing, which looks horrendous.

Staal-Klein -- 24 Mins/game
McDonagh-Boyle -- 18 mins/game
Moore/Hunwick-Girardi 18 mins/game

 

[RangerBoy]

Brooks was lamenting the Rangers lack of depth on D with Moore struggling. The Rangers could not afford a better D. The Rangers may not qualify Moore to make him eligible for salary arbitration. He will automatically get a raise. Brooks was wondering if the Rangers were showcasing Moore for another deal. Who is playing D for the Rangers next season outside of the top 5?

 

[haveandare]

After watching last night, here are a few problems:

The round robin on the bottom 6 is really a problem. NONE of these guys know their roles, this includes the vet Hagelin...

Hayes is great, but at this point he's hitting that rookie wall. Luckily we are only half way through the season, and I think there's going to be flexibility for him to either move to wing or sit out a few games. I really do NOT want to move him to wing, but the issue becomes rolling 4 lines if we keep him at center.
I'm not opposed to giving him a Brian Boyle type Role on the 4th line with Dominic Moore either, so that should be considered.

Stempniak NEEDS to be a staple on ONE specific line, The guy has talent, and can score, drives possession, is incredibly versatile, and he should not be traded (probably does not hold much value anyway)...

Hagelin needs a regular winger linemate, because he's losing his way as to how he's supposed to be playing to further the team... His speed is great, but he's not effectively doing anything with that speed... On top of that, since Stempniak, Fast, and Miller have all had that 3rd line spot, he's really been a victim of line changes. I believe this was supposed to be Stempniak, but it doesn't seem solidified yet

3C upgrade is necessary if Hayes is in fact moved from center.

Lastly, and the biggest problem is that the TOP 6 needs to be broken up, and the LW/RW depth needs to be distributed down the lineup...

RWers:
MSL
Stempniak
Zucc
Fast

LWers
Nash
Kreider
Hagelin
Miller

Cs
Stepan
Brassard
Hayes/Vermette
Moore


We HAVE the tools... but we need to spread out how these tools function

Kreider-Stepan-Nash -- Stepan's skills, IQ, and agility need to be complemented by players that do not play perimeter... MSL does not play an active enough game for Stepan, which is why it's time this line gets reunited.

Miller-Brass-Zuccarello -- Let Miller take Poo's spot from last year. Zucc plays fine against 2nd line competition, and worst case you can shelter this line if necessary, but I think Zucc and Brass make up for Miller's deficiencies. You also surround Miller with 2 experienced players.

Hagelin-Hayes/Vermette-MSL -- Let's give Hagelin a ****ING ROLE on this team--GET THE PUCK and get it to MSL... It's no secret Hagelin has hands of stone, so why are we depending on him to actually finish anything here? Secondly, if we get a guy like Vermette, it doesn't mean Hayes cannot play, he just ends up being demoted, and since he's a rookie, that's probably a GOOD thing, especially since he'll be able to play with 2 experienced, defense first guys (see next line)

Hayes/Fast-Moore-Stempniak -- Stempniak has lots of versatility, it's just that given the guys in front of him he ends up on the 4th line. I'm all for swapping him out with MSL, but you can't put MSL on this line regularly. That said, ALL of these guys drive possession, and have the ability to forecheck

Now for the Power Play... It's too top heavy, and if that 1st unit isn't producing, then we don't score, plain and simple.

Stepan-Kreider-Nash -- Let's keep the top line together since they're so solid.
Zucc-Boyle -- Lefty-Right shots, Zucc has the best vision on the team, let him exercise that 5v4

Brassard-Miller-MSL -- Miller can center a PP, we already know that. Brassard
McDonagh-Klein/Girardi (yuck) -- i dont know what else to use here... McDonagh is just crap this year, no way around it... the only other option is using John Moore with Girardi...

As for D Pairings, McDonagh needs to start getting 2nd pairing time because Staal is clearly the best defenseman on the team right now. That said, if Boyle isn't up for first pairing minutes, then Staal-Klein WILL BE our top pair, which I'm fine with (sans the lack of offensive play). At that point you HAVE to break up Girardi and McDonagh because you're otherwise stuck with Moore/Hunwick-Boyle as a pairing, which looks horrendous.

Staal-Klein -- 24 Mins/game
McDonagh-Boyle -- 18 mins/game
Moore/Hunwick-Girardi 18 mins/game

Well put. I totally agree. Many of he pieces are there, AV is just blowing roster management right now, and it's really starting to worry me.

 

[Raspewtin]

After watching last night, here are a few problems:

The round robin on the bottom 6 is really a problem. NONE of these guys know their roles, this includes the vet Hagelin...

Hayes is great, but at this point he's hitting that rookie wall. Luckily we are only half way through the season, and I think there's going to be flexibility for him to either move to wing or sit out a few games. I really do NOT want to move him to wing, but the issue becomes rolling 4 lines if we keep him at center.
I'm not opposed to giving him a Brian Boyle type Role on the 4th line with Dominic Moore either, so that should be considered.

Stempniak NEEDS to be a staple on ONE specific line, The guy has talent, and can score, drives possession, is incredibly versatile, and he should not be traded (probably does not hold much value anyway)...

Hagelin needs a regular winger linemate, because he's losing his way as to how he's supposed to be playing to further the team... His speed is great, but he's not effectively doing anything with that speed... On top of that, since Stempniak, Fast, and Miller have all had that 3rd line spot, he's really been a victim of line changes. I believe this was supposed to be Stempniak, but it doesn't seem solidified yet

3C upgrade is necessary if Hayes is in fact moved from center.

Lastly, and the biggest problem is that the TOP 6 needs to be broken up, and the LW/RW depth needs to be distributed down the lineup...

RWers:
MSL
Stempniak
Zucc
Fast

LWers
Nash
Kreider
Hagelin
Miller

Cs
Stepan
Brassard
Hayes/Vermette
Moore


We HAVE the tools... but we need to spread out how these tools function

Kreider-Stepan-Nash -- Stepan's skills, IQ, and agility need to be complemented by players that do not play perimeter... MSL does not play an active enough game for Stepan, which is why it's time this line gets reunited.

Miller-Brass-Zuccarello -- Let Miller take Poo's spot from last year. Zucc plays fine against 2nd line competition, and worst case you can shelter this line if necessary, but I think Zucc and Brass make up for Miller's deficiencies. You also surround Miller with 2 experienced players.

Hagelin-Hayes/Vermette-MSL -- Let's give Hagelin a ****ING ROLE on this team--GET THE PUCK and get it to MSL... It's no secret Hagelin has hands of stone, so why are we depending on him to actually finish anything here? Secondly, if we get a guy like Vermette, it doesn't mean Hayes cannot play, he just ends up being demoted, and since he's a rookie, that's probably a GOOD thing, especially since he'll be able to play with 2 experienced, defense first guys (see next line)

Hayes/Fast-Moore-Stempniak -- Stempniak has lots of versatility, it's just that given the guys in front of him he ends up on the 4th line. I'm all for swapping him out with MSL, but you can't put MSL on this line regularly. That said, ALL of these guys drive possession, and have the ability to forecheck

Now for the Power Play... It's too top heavy, and if that 1st unit isn't producing, then we don't score, plain and simple.

Stepan-Kreider-Nash -- Let's keep the top line together since they're so solid.
Zucc-Boyle -- Lefty-Right shots, Zucc has the best vision on the team, let him exercise that 5v4

Brassard-Miller-MSL -- Miller can center a PP, we already know that. Brassard
McDonagh-Klein/Girardi (yuck) -- i dont know what else to use here... McDonagh is just crap this year, no way around it... the only other option is using John Moore with Girardi...

As for D Pairings, McDonagh needs to start getting 2nd pairing time because Staal is clearly the best defenseman on the team right now. That said, if Boyle isn't up for first pairing minutes, then Staal-Klein WILL BE our top pair, which I'm fine with (sans the lack of offensive play). At that point you HAVE to break up Girardi and McDonagh because you're otherwise stuck with Moore/Hunwick-Boyle as a pairing, which looks horrendous.

Staal-Klein -- 24 Mins/game
McDonagh-Boyle -- 18 mins/game
Moore/Hunwick-Girardi 18 mins/game

Literally 100% absolutely totally word for word this. Great post.

Except.........god I HATE the idea of a Staal-Klein pairing, so much.

 

[NYR Viper]

Brooks was lamenting the Rangers lack of depth on D with Moore struggling. The Rangers could not afford a better D. The Rangers may not qualify Moore to make him eligible for salary arbitration. He will automatically get a raise. Brooks was wondering if the Rangers were showcasing Moore for another deal. Who is playing D for the Rangers next season outside of the top 5?

John Moore needs to go. He has been surpassed by Matt Hunwick, a journeyman depth defenseman. He is all tools and no toolbox. I watched him closely last night. He is still extremely tentative.

He looked good in Torts' system, maybe a team somewhere will remember that who plays a similar system and wants to give him a chance.

 

[Leetch3]

I think if the Rangers thought he was a viable option for us they woulda dumped salary to get him when he went to waivers

not true...if you got the kings to retain salary they would be on the hook for that $$ for the rest of his contract. what you are describing is what would have happened if he was a pending ufa and you only had to clear space for this year...

 

[RangerBoy]

Moore was better under Tortorella. The Rangers are better off trading him because they should not pay him anything more than his current salary. He can file for arbitration. Newport will make him look like McDonagh in their brief. Not qualifying makes him a free agent.

 

[NYR Viper]

The Rangers need a forward with size who can play physical on the 4th line. Someone who can muck it up and create some energy. Glass can do those things but he can't play. Find that player.