Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster building thread - Part VII

[Ugene Magic]

He will also carry a 7.25mil cap hit and a NTC that kicks in-in less than a month.

This is probably the biggest point that should be stated.

If you let him get to those points of his new contract he now has more control of where he goes *also* lowering his return due to probably not having many suiters figuring he has the final say.

You'll probably get about the same return, Letang and his history now, and Letang with health concerns behind him, but with a NTC with a very short list, and then even shorter due to his cap hit.

There literally will be no safer/better time to trade him, but he'll be much easier now with no constraints of what/which team he can be traded to.

It really comes down to, "do they want to move forward with that $7.250 cap hit?"

He came back and played very well, but had a couple broken bones. I doubt they'll get full value no matter when they trade him.

I'd easily move on from him and take a top 5 pick, young winger, and roster player for him. Kind of in the lines of the Staal trade. The only difference is that they shouldn't be hell bent on getting a D-man back to replace Letang. They have plenty of options there.

If they keep him? They probably will. Can't say I feel good about that completely.

 

[themethod7]

Once again, under the new CBA, Letang's cap hit will look a lot better in the next 2-3 years once you see the contracts everyone else is signing. Comparing it to guys like Weber and Suter who signed 12+ year, backdiving contracts just makes Letang's look worse, but trust me, when MacD signs for $5, when Niskanen signs for $6, when Subban signs for $8+, you'll stop *****ing about paying Letang $7.25.

 

[theicebox]

Once again, under the new CBA, Letang's cap hit will look a lot better in the next 2-3 years once you see the contracts everyone else is signing. Comparing it to guys like Weber and Suter who signed 12+ year, backdiving contracts just makes Letang's look worse, but trust me, when MacD signs for $5, when Niskanen signs for $6, when Subban signs for $8+, you'll stop *****ing about paying Letang $7.25.

Leave it to Butters to be the voice of reason in the room.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah he really does seem like the perfect fit.

Kane, Kulemin and Winchester. Your dream offseason?

Pretty much.

However, I doubt we ever see Kane in a Pens uni though. Teams don't let guys like him go IMHO.

Kulemin and Winchester are very realistic targets though. Kulemin will dramatically increase the puck possession stats for the Malkin line and do all of the dirty work Neal is too lazy to do. He is a monster on the boards and so good defensively. Every time he is put in an offensive role he puts up points. But with the Leafs strength at his position in the top six, and their lack of a defensive conscious, he is always moved back into a defensive role to stop the bleeding.

This year the Leafs let up the most shots in decades, if I remember correctly. So he was once again thrust into a shutdown role. He won't be a 30 goal guy again, but he can certainly be a 50 point guy with Malkin IMHO.

Winchester is just a bigger, badder Vitale. He's a hell of a bottom sixer.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Landing Kulemin is a no-brainer. I agree.
Shouldn't be hard to do so either.
Hopefully Geno is making a case to Mario.
Signing him and letting JJ walk is the easiest decision in the world for me.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Once again, under the new CBA, Letang's cap hit will look a lot better in the next 2-3 years once you see the contracts everyone else is signing. Comparing it to guys like Weber and Suter who signed 12+ year, backdiving contracts just makes Letang's look worse, but trust me, when MacD signs for $5, when Niskanen signs for $6, when Subban signs for $8+, you'll stop *****ing about paying Letang $7.25.

It has nothing to do with how his cap number will look compared to others around the league. It comes down to the fact this particular team already has two larger ones that no other team has to contend with. Now add in they drafted heavily in his position.

This team can't be put side by side with other teams, or it's players (not yet at least) where you can have the same function of it's parts and have balance.

 

[WayneSid9987]

My take. We need to get bigger and tougher to play against. We need a net front presence.

Trade for Stewart.
Sign Kulemin.
Sign Winchester.
Sign Greene.
Dump Scuderi.


CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
2014
FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Chris Stewart ($4.150m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($3.300m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m) / Brandon Sutter ($3.500m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Jesse Winchester ($0.900m) / Joe Vitale ($0.800m) / Jayson Megna ($0.874m)
Harry Zolnierczyk ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Kris Letang ($7.250m)
Olli Maatta ($0.894m) / Matt Greene ($3.500m)
Simon Despres ($0.951m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Brian Dumoulin ($0.832m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.600m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,400,458; BONUSES: $68,333
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $699,542

I like this. Only question would be what would it take to get Stewart?
Probably a D-prospect + a 1st? Or D.Pouliot full stop?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

People are willing to trade Letang, because we have someone who can bring a lot of what he does for ~2/3rds of the price in Niskanen, thus saving us ~2.5m in cap space, and adding a couple of assets in the process. Then in addition to Niskanen, we have a **** load of D prospects.

No man, there is literally 5-6 guys like Letang in the entire league and Nisky isn't even in the same realm.

Even DP, while gifted, can't skate and play at Letang's speed. Again, only about half a dozen blueliners in the league can do what he does.

You don't trade a rare talent, that is a proven playoff performer, to save cap space.

Neal on the other hand, while we could get a solid return for him, we don't have any F depth, or anyone in the system who could potentially replace him

Replace what? They have never had trouble scoring in the regular season in the Malkin/Crosby era.

He is a ghost in the playoffs. So exactly what is Neal bringing that is so valuable to this team? It is the same argument over and over about him being a 40 goal scorer. Do people really think this team wouldn't make the playoffs without Neal and his 40 goals?

It isn't like he is former 40 goal scorer Jeff Carter who scores in the regular season and keeps doing it in the playoffs. Neal scores in the regular season, then stops scoring in the playoffs. For a guy who brings little else but goal scoring, how can people even act like he is so valuable after seeing this act four years in a row?

Edit, what's funny though is while you keep quoting me, I'm in favor of trading him - IF it's the right deal, and not just for the sake of making a change.

I keep quoting you? I believe you quoted me first, so I'm not sure why you are being defensive about a general point I'm making.

 

[penguins2946*]

I really hope people aren't serious when they say they want to trade Letang and keep Niskanen. Yes, it would be smart to keep a career #5D that had a great season for $5-$6 million instead of a top pair Norris-calibre D that had a bad season (where he still had a higher PPG and GPG than Niskanen) for $7.25 million. I'm glad the Pens management isn't as shortsighted as it is here.

 

[djt153]

if bylsma is truly as bad as everyone thinks then it stands to reason new coaches might have better luck at fixing letangs game by eliminating some of the boneheaded plays

 

[Rectify]

I really hope people aren't serious when they say they want to trade Letang and keep Niskanen. Yes, it would be smart to keep a career #5D that had a great season for $5-$6 million instead of a top pair Norris-calibre D that had a bad season (where he still had a higher PPG and GPG than Niskanen) for $7.25 million. I'm glad the Pens management isn't as shortsighted as it is here.

I would love to keep Nisky at nothing north of $3.5 (not happening), if it's between Tang or Nisky, Tang 11 times out of 11.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This is probably the biggest point that should be stated.

If you let him get to those points of his new contract he now has more control of where he goes *also* lowering his return due to probably not having many suiters figuring he has the final say.

You'll probably get about the same return, Letang and his history now, and Letang with health concerns behind him, but with a NTC with a very short list, and then even shorter due to his cap hit.

There literally will be no safer/better time to trade him, but he'll be much easier now with no constraints of what/which team he can be traded to.

It really comes down to, "do they want to move forward with that $7.250 cap hit?"

He came back and played very well, but had a couple broken bones. I doubt they'll get full value no matter when they trade him.

I'd easily move on from him and take a top 5 pick, young winger, and roster player for him. Kind of in the lines of the Staal trade. The only difference is that they shouldn't be hell bent on getting a D-man back to replace Letang. They have plenty of options there.

If they keep him? They probably will. Can't say I feel good about that completely.

That is approximately 10% of the cap next year. Not bad for what a player with his skills brings. And if the past is any indication that will decrease each year. Without looking it up I would guess about 2% a year. That is why people LOVE using contracts signed 3 or 4 years prior as comparables. ie, Toews and Kane will NEVER get more than $7 million per year. Look at Crosby at $8.7 million. How could either ask from even as much????

Proving that many here are clueless about the cap and how it works.

 

[penguins2946*]

I would love to keep Nisky at nothing north of $3.5 (not happening), if it's between Tang or Nisky, Tang 11 times out of 11.

Exactly. Letang's high is too high to trade him to give Niskanen his spot. It's a lot more likely that Niskanen falls back to earth and returns to his #4/5 form than Letang not returning to his past form.

 

[jdpitt05]

I like this. Only question would be what would it take to get Stewart?
Probably a D-prospect + a 1st? Or D.Pouliot full stop?

I wouldn't deal Pouliot for him. It may take Despres or Doumolin\Samuelsson and pick.Just guessing here though.

 

[Sideline]

Exactly. Letang's high is too high to trade him to give Niskanen his spot. It's a lot more likely that Niskanen falls back to earth and returns to his #4/5 form than Letang not returning to his past form.

It's not a question of if Letang is more valuable than Niskanen. It's a question of if Letang is more valuable than Niskanen, Drouin, and Purcell (or something similar).

 

[Pens1566]

At this point, I think it's more likely that Martin or Maatta is dealt before Letang. Just a hunch.

 

[joeyjake5]

Here is the nisky/tanger dilemma

Assuming you can sign Nisky for 5.25MM at 5 years and Tanger in the eyes of the other GMs would bring you a quality winger and a # 1 draft pick.

Are you better off with Nisky, a top winger, and #1 pick versus tanger. This is what is in front of JR. Either Tanger or Nisky goes, no way you can have both.

 

[Rectify]

Here is the nisky/tanger dilemma

Assuming you can sign Nisky for 5.25MM at 5 years and Tanger in the eyes of the other GMs would bring you a quality winger and a # 1 draft pick.

Are you better off with Nisky, a top winger, and #1 pick versus tanger. This is what is in front of JR. Either Tanger or Nisky goes, no way you can have both.

I do not want Nisky near that cap hit or term, I would much rather go with a vet on a shorter contract.

 

[Ugene Magic]

That is approximately 10% of the cap next year. Not bad for what a player with his skills brings. And if the past is any indication that will decrease each year. Without looking it up I would guess about 2% a year. That is why people LOVE using contracts signed 3 or 4 years prior as comparables. ie, Toews and Kane will NEVER get more than $7 million per year. Look at Crosby at $8.7 million. How could either ask from even as much????

Proving that many here are clueless about the cap and how it works.

The cap will go up, but so do the players salaries. It's been apparent for a long time and part of the reason you can't always depend on the cap rising to fill your roster out. It would take a league wide stance among GM's to not over spend on marginal players.

The bold: You can't use Crosby's cap number who took a life long 10 year deal before the new CBA. Malkin's deal should tell you this while he still took a hometown discount even though it's 9.5, and he could have got 1.0/2.0 more to make up the difference better. The new CBA will start seeing more players toping what both these guys got, but I wouldn't be shocked if they signed similar deals, either.

 

[PensPlz]

Trade Letang, keep Nisky? No. Trade Martin, keep Nisky is the correct answer.

Martin has 1 year left on his 5mil contract and he is 34 this year. Martin's value has never been higher. Send him somewhere for a couple picks, use those picks to acquire Stewart or Kesler, give Nisky the 4-5 mil.

 

[Sideline]

Trade Letang, keep Nisky? No. Trade Martin, keep Nisky is the correct answer.

Martin has 1 year left on his 5mil contract and he is 34 this year. Martin's value has never been higher. Send him somewhere for a couple picks, use those picks to acquire Stewart or Kesler, give Nisky the 4-5 mil.

It would take balls of steel to trade the team's best defenceman that plays top minutes in all situations, but at his age it has to be an option for the right value.

 

[mpp9]

Pretty much.

However, I doubt we ever see Kane in a Pens uni though. Teams don't let guys like him go IMHO.

Kulemin and Winchester are very realistic targets though. Kulemin will dramatically increase the puck possession stats for the Malkin line and do all of the dirty work Neal is too lazy to do. He is a monster on the boards and so good defensively. Every time he is put in an offensive role he puts up points. But with the Leafs strength at his position in the top six, and their lack of a defensive conscious, he is always moved back into a defensive role to stop the bleeding.

This year the Leafs let up the most shots in decades, if I remember correctly. So he was once again thrust into a shutdown role. He won't be a 30 goal guy again, but he can certainly be a 50 point guy with Malkin IMHO.

Winchester is just a bigger, badder Vitale. He's a hell of a bottom sixer.

Yeah those would be my three picks as solutions this offseason. But barring Kane not being available, I'd try my hand at Kesler again. I really dont' think it's going to take a whole lot. Stastny may be headed to free agency. Spezza's available. Thornton, Marleau or Pavelski likely as well. I think that'll bring the market down. Even more so than at the deadline when only Anaheim and us were making serious bids.

I don't think we could get Kane for a straight swap with Neal. They want more depth. So it'd likely take another forward and maybe a small add on their part to even it out.

While it's been reported that Vancouver has consistently wanted a center in return that can help them now. Aside from Philly being dumb and dumping their future. We're the only team on Kesler's list of teams with a center that can step onto their second line.

And as you said, teams don't usually trade guys like Kane. But it's all but certain Kesler's gone.

 

[Ugene Magic]

It would take balls of steel to trade the team's best defenceman that plays top minutes in all situations, but at his age it has to be an option for the right value.

Yep. We have to be open to all options. That's not a bad one, and it could be seen as selling one year early rather than one year too late. The roster is taking a serious turn and some guys may not fit anymore.

Scuderi is probably the easiest target, though. Martin's one year probably will hurt them less.

*Scuderi*<--Niskanen.

Solved.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Replace what? They have never had trouble scoring in the regular season in the Malkin/Crosby era.

He is a ghost in the playoffs. So exactly what is Neal bringing that is so valuable to this team? It is the same argument over and over about him being a 40 goal scorer. Do people really think this team wouldn't make the playoffs without Neal and his 40 goals?

It isn't like he is former 40 goal scorer Jeff Carter who scores in the regular season and keeps doing it in the playoffs. Neal scores in the regular season, then stops scoring in the playoffs. For a guy who brings little else but goal scoring, how can people even act like he is so valuable after seeing this act four years in a row?

Like I said, when Neal was with Malkin in '12 and '13, he had the 3rd highest PPG among forwards and the highest GPG on our team, so saying he stops scoring in the playoffs is garbage. Neal literally scores more goals per game than anyone on our team when placed with a playmaking center outside of a few games at the start of the Columbus series this year.

Don't let penchant for bad penalties, mediocre board work, and poor production these playoffs skew the facts. There's an argument that we could be better served in the playoffs with a different type of winger , because you're right, Neal doesn't create a lot of room or play hard in the dirty areas. But he has a proven track record of playoff production when he's with a scoring line center. That is not a valid criticism.

No man, describing what Neal does in the regular season to create room for Malkin is not an accurate account of what happens come playoff time. Malkin started to catch fire AFTER he stopped playing with Neal. Aside from a couple of games in these playoffs, any line Neal was on, was ass.

Yeah, sounds like most of the forwards on this team outside of Malkin and Sutter.

Neal has never been a money guy for this team in the playoffs. I looked at the stats before this years playoffs and pointed that out, then Yohe, I believe, pointed out the same thing after the playoffs with updated stats: He has scored all of his goals in 7 games. That means he has gone 31 playoff games without a goal. That's disturbing, albeit an accurate representation of his failure to show up come playoff time.

Am I in some alternate dimension where playoff goals only count if the player hasn't already scored one that game? Playoff goals are playoff goals, and Neal has scored more of them than anyone on our team when playing with a scoring line center.

And again, any stat being used to evaluate a pure triggerman that doesn't take into account that he had Letestu setting him up for his only low-scoring series prior to these playoffs isn't worth the keystrokes.

I find it comical many of the same people who want to hold onto Neal because he scores a lot in the regular season, want to deal Letang instead. Letang, including this years playoffs, has been a big game player and was an integral part of their cup run. He has proven he can step up his game in the playoffs, Neal never has. Yet people who want this team to stop collapsing in the playoffs want a playoff no show like Neal, over a proven playoff performer like Letang.

I don't particularly want to deal Letang or Neal. I would move either for the ideal wing return, but that's a pretty short list.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, I like the idea of Megna on the 4th line. I would like to see

Megna-Vitale-PL3

but I doubt that would happen. Gibby the 13th forward who comes straight in if there are injures (anything like last season he will get lots of time).

I could get on board with that. Megna is 6'1 195lbs. If he packed on 10-15lbs of muscle, with his speed and skill set, at that size, he could really be a good power forward. Kid is not afraid to get into the dirty areas, win a battle, and go to the net.