1974 Canada/Soviet Summit

[cam042686]

Yea the eastern bloc were obvious and blatant cheats, largely why I get so flummuxed when all some ppull want to talk about in those original series' is the Bobby Clarke slash when the Soviets were so much worse in so many ways.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic here. Ken Dryden has said that the Soviets overall were more sportsmanlike "on the ice" than we were. They tended to screw around with the officials and such while we cheated on the ice.

Not to say the opposite didn't occur. We all remember Boris Mikhailov kicking Gary Bergman in 1972 and spearing Gerry Cheevers in 1974. Well we ensured Lloyd Gilmour worked the CKSA-Flyer game in 1976 as opposed to an official like Bruce Hood who would actually enforce the rule book. Alan Eagleson ensured that the Canada Cups would only be played here -so our guys would never have to be away from home or play on the bigger ice. He also enured that the Soviets and Czechs had the toughest schedules to start these tournaments while Canada had the easiest. So we screwed around as well.

Craig Wallace

 

[cam042686]

Was Dombrowski really worse then Stacey Livingstone {sp?} in the Womans Gold Medal Game in the 2002 Olympics?

I remember how obvious of cheaters Bad and Badder were in the 72 series but I'm not remembering Dombrowski, though I was relatively young at the time.

As far as Baader and Kompalla go in 72, they were not very good. But I really believe that was more of not being used to the North American style of hockey and they were not the caliber of NHL refs. Where they somewhat biased? I think so but I believe that was simply more they were used to European style hockey more so than they were cheats. Dombrowski in my mind was a cheat.

Craig Wallace

 

[Preisst*]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic here. Ken Dryden has said that the Soviets overall were more sportsmanlike "on the ice" than we were. They tended to screw around with the officials and such while we cheated on the ice.

Not to say the opposite didn't occur. We all remember Boris Mikhailov kicking Gary Bergman in 1972 and spearing Gerry Cheevers in 1974. Well we ensured Lloyd Gilmour worked the CKSA-Flyer game in 1976 as opposed to an official like Bruce Hood who would actually enforce the rule book. Alan Eagleson ensured that the Canada Cups would only be played here -so our guys would never have to be away from home or play on the bigger ice. He also enured that the Soviets and Czechs had the toughest schedules to start these tournaments while Canada had the easiest. So we screwed around as well.

Craig Wallace

Spearing and kicking are two of the most gutless, cheap and dirty tactics that can be imagined in hockey :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJlyxe2LC7o

We did what we did in retaliation/response to thug moves by the Soviets. We never "cheated" any more than they did with their unmanly cheap tricks. And sorry but I don't put to much stock in what Ken Dryden says in this respect.

 

[cam042686]

Spearing and kicking are two of the most gutless, cheap and dirty tactics that can be imagined in hockey :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJlyxe2LC7o

We did what we did in retaliation/response to thug moves by the Soviets. We never "cheated" any more than they did with their unmanly cheap tricks. And sorry but I don't put to much stock in what Ken Dryden says in this respect.

I don't disagree - they were terrible acts. Rick Smith also told me he was shocked when Soviet players spit in his face during the 74 Summit. But we were certainly not angels. I'd put Bobby Clarke's slash on Valery Kharlamov as perhaps the most disgusting premeditated act of pure "sickness" I have ever seen in hockey. And think about it. Neither the NHL or Flyers did a thing about it showing they obviously condoned the act.

Not sure what you have against Ken Dryden as I have always found him to be while somewhat dry and long winded, one of the most aware and ethical people in hockey.

Craig Wallace

 

[Crosbyfan]

I don't disagree - they were terrible acts. Rick Smith also told me he was shocked when Soviet players spit in his face during the 74 Summit. But we were certainly not angels. I'd put Bobby Clarke's slash on Valery Kharlamov as perhaps the most disgusting premeditated act of pure "sickness" I have ever seen in hockey. And think about it. Neither the NHL or Flyers did a thing about it showing they obviously condoned the act.

Not sure what you have against Ken Dryden as I have always found him to be while somewhat dry and long winded, one of the most aware and ethical people in hockey.

Craig Wallace

Clarke was simply a piece of work beyond anything the Soviets were doing. If Pospisil turned his head toward Clarke's blindside attack he could have lost an eye:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2bHJj7avd4

 

[Redscotter]

I just got this series on Video for Christmas.

Team WHA Canada did well for a team that was made-up of aging stars and WHA-era talent.

I am reminded of how great a player JC Tremblay was, and how we could have used him in 1972 ....

 

[VMBM]

Not to say the opposite didn't occur. We all remember Boris Mikhailov kicking Gary Bergman in 1972 and spearing Gerry Cheevers in 1974.

Cheevers most certainly gave as good as he got.

 

[cam042686]

Clarke was simply a piece of work beyond anything the Soviets were doing. If Pospisil turned his head toward Clarke's blindside attack he could have lost an eye:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2bHJj7avd4

You are so right here! And think about this. Were we as Canadians not opening a very dangerous door when Clarke took out Kharlamov? By that I mean can you imagine if the Soviets had responded and say Petrov sent Phil Esposito to the hospital with a broken leg? The right response would have been for Harry Sinden to say "Well we are sorry to lose Phil but hey - we live by the sword and we die by the sword. I agree 100% with what Petrov did because that is also the way we play."

Of course that would not have occurred. There would have been weeping, wailing, and nashing of teeth in Canada over it. And yet while I deplore violence in hockey and am disgusted by fighting and such - it would have been just. When you go down that path you need to be fully prepared for what you may get in return.

Craig Wallace

 

[cam042686]

Cheevers most certainly gave as good as he got.

I won't disagree. But Mikhailov went behind Cheevers and speared him in the back of the leg and really hurt him. I can't support hurting anyone from behind - including what Clarke did do Kharlamov. That is always wrong.

Craig Wallace

 

[cam042686]

I just got this series on Video for Christmas.

Team WHA Canada did well for a team that was made-up of aging stars and WHA-era talent.

I am reminded of how great a player JC Tremblay was, and how we could have used him in 1972 ....

JC played very well as did Ralph Backstrom. My god that man could play!

The quality of hockey we saw in this series was wonderful. As a Canadian I am sorry we lost - but fans of the sport won as the hockey was of a caliber far higher than you'd ever see in the NHL or WHA.

Craig Wallace

 

[Preisst*]

I don't disagree - they were terrible acts. Rick Smith also told me he was shocked when Soviet players spit in his face during the 74 Summit. But we were certainly not angels. I'd put Bobby Clarke's slash on Valery Kharlamov as perhaps the most disgusting premeditated act of pure "sickness" I have ever seen in hockey. And think about it. Neither the NHL or Flyers did a thing about it showing they obviously condoned the act.

Not sure what you have against Ken Dryden as I have always found him to be while somewhat dry and long winded, one of the most aware and ethical people in hockey.

Craig Wallace

I concur we were not angels but neither were we the devils that revisionist historians preach. Virtually all we ever hear about from those early series was how barbaric the Canadians were and for some reason the Soviets get a free ride even though, in my mind, what they did was worse than what we did. It would baffle my mind except for the undisputed reality that Canadians like to eat their own.

As for Dryden I have no problem with him and generally respect his hocky opinions though not always. For example his saying the Soviets were more 'gentlemen like' then Canadians just sounds to me like the pandering of a politician.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I concur we were not angels but neither were we the devils that revisionist historians preach. Virtually all we ever hear about from those early series was how barbaric the Canadians were and for some reason the Soviets get a free ride even though, in my mind, what they did was worse than what we did. It would baffle my mind except for the undisputed reality that Canadians like to eat their own.

As for Dryden I have no problem with him and generally respect his hocky opinions though not always. For example his saying the Soviets were more 'gentlemen like' then Canadians just sounds to me like the pandering of a politician.

As someone who is neither Canadian or Russian, I would have to agree with Mr. Dryden's take.

 

[Preisst*]

As someone who is neither Canadian or Russian, I would have to agree with Mr. Dryden's take.

Thats fine. Personally I'm not a fan of players who spear, kick and spit in faces but to each their own. So if we eliminate the Clarke slash what dastardly actions did Canada do that makes you feel this way?

 

[cam042686]

Thats fine. Personally I'm not a fan of players who spear, kick and spit in faces but to each their own. So if we eliminate the Clarke slash what dastardly actions did Canada do that makes you feel this way?

To be honest I don't know of any. I know the Soviets were upset at how Wayne Cashman played in particular. Other players like JP Parise were rougher than they liked. But nothing as brutal as what Clarke did. I think the Soviets were also appalled at how we spoke to the officials and how Sinden "lost it" and things like that.

Craig Wallace

 

[Preisst*]

To be honest I don't know of any. I know the Soviets were upset at how Wayne Cashman played in particular. Other players like JP Parise were rougher than they liked. But nothing as brutal as what Clarke did. I think the Soviets were also appalled at how we spoke to the officials and how Sinden "lost it" and things like that.

Craig Wallace

Thus the crux of the matter. Soviets upset cuz we had some players who were rough and tough all whilst they get in their more "subtle" cheap shots. Officials who blatantly cheated for them and then they get appalled when we man up and voice our distaste for the obviousness of it.

And now worst of all the revisionist historians who make it sound like Canada were devils and the innocent poor Soviets who did no wrong. It's disgusting.

I'm interested to hear from 'Dennis Bonvie' about his reasoning for his agreement with Dryden.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Thus the crux of the matter. Soviets upset cuz we had some players who were rough and tough all whilst they get in their more "subtle" cheap shots. Officials who blatantly cheated for them and then they get appalled when we man up and voice our distaste for the obviousness of it.

And now worst of all the revisionist historians who make it sound like Canada were devils and the innocent poor Soviets who did no wrong. It's disgusting.

I'm interested to hear from 'Dennis Bonvie' about his reasoning for his agreement with Dryden.

Much of it has to do with the fact that Dryden was actually there. Seems to be, from what he's written in books and newspaper articles, a very fair-minded individual with the intellectual capacity to see things as they really are rather than from team or nationalist view point.

Then there was also the fact that I was around to watch most of the series and can recall the preception of dirty play by the Canadians.

 

[Preisst*]

Much of it has to do with the fact that Dryden was actually there. Seems to be, from what he's written in books and newspaper articles, a very fair-minded individual with the intellectual capacity to see things as they really are rather than from team or nationalist view point.

Then there was also the fact that I was around to watch most of the series and can recall the preception of dirty play by the Canadians.

Thats fair I was just curious if there was any actual examples which there apparantly are not, just perception.

But yea I'm like Dryden in the sense of seeing things for what they really are and I too was there to watch the entire series, not just some or most of it.

Thanks for the input.

 

[cam042686]

Thus the crux of the matter. Soviets upset cuz we had some players who were rough and tough all whilst they get in their more "subtle" cheap shots. Officials who blatantly cheated for them and then they get appalled when we man up and voice our distaste for the obviousness of it.

And now worst of all the revisionist historians who make it sound like Canada were devils and the innocent poor Soviets who did no wrong. It's disgusting.

I'm interested to hear from 'Dennis Bonvie' about his reasoning for his agreement with Dryden.

I watched that series and while I agree that our players were not "thugs" they were rougher than Europeans were used to.

I wouldn't say shrieking" at refs, and throwing chairs onto the ice was "manning up." That was the work of an immature child. Compare the reactions of Sinden to Billy Harris in 1974 when Dombrowski openly cheated during Game 6 or Father David Bauer in the 1964 Olympics when a Swedish player fired a broken stick into the Canadian bench cutting Father Dave's face open. The way Harris and Father Dave reacted (outlined in detail in my book "The Forgotten Summit) was the reaction of mature men.

Looking at the 74 Summit (which after all this thread is about) Team Canada, though playing for a coach who wanted his players to act like true gentlemen and sportsmen, we were at times very nasty. In Game 5 Canadian announcers Don Chevrier and Howie Meeker exclaimed "in horror" at the stick work of both teams. These Canadian announcers hammered both teams for their vicious stick work. At the end of Game 6 Rick Ley beat Valery Kharlamov to a bloody pulp. That was assault plain and simple. And in Game 7 Andre Lacroix viciously speared Vladimir Petrov in the groin behind the Soviet net. Lacroix was known for his stick work and got nailed in Prague during Team Canada 74's 3-1 loss to the Czechs for another spear.

Craig Wallace

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Thats fair I was just curious if there was any actual examples which there apparantly are not, just perception.

But yea I'm like Dryden in the sense of seeing things for what they really are and I too was there to watch the entire series, not just some or most of it.

Thanks for the input.

Thanks for the cheers.

 

[Preisst*]

I watched that series and while I agree that our players were not "thugs" they were rougher than Europeans were used to.

I wouldn't say shrieking" at refs, and throwing chairs onto the ice was "manning up." That was the work of an immature child. Compare the reactions of Sinden to Billy Harris in 1974 when Dombrowski openly cheated during Game 6 or Father David Bauer in the 1964 Olympics when a Swedish player fired a broken stick into the Canadian bench cutting Father Dave's face open. The way Harris and Father Dave reacted (outlined in detail in my book "The Forgotten Summit) was the reaction of mature men.

Looking at the 74 Summit (which after all this thread is about) Team Canada, though playing for a coach who wanted his players to act like true gentlemen and sportsmen, we were at times very nasty. In Game 5 Canadian announcers Don Chevrier and Howie Meeker exclaimed "in horror" at the stick work of both teams. These Canadian announcers hammered both teams for their vicious stick work. At the end of Game 6 Rick Ley beat Valery Kharlamov to a bloody pulp. That was assault plain and simple. And in Game 7 Andre Lacroix viciously speared Vladimir Petrov in the groin behind the Soviet net. Lacroix was known for his stick work and got nailed in Prague during Team Canada 74's 3-1 loss to the Czechs for another spear.

Craig Wallace

Thats all fair. The last thing I wanted to do was derail the thread from the 74 Summit Series but the context of the convo just sort of evolved into including the 72 series into the discussion.

I fully agree and appreciate your original post about 74 being the forgotten series. But hey, at least this thread is still going almost a full 4 years after it was started!

In retrospect I guess the term 'manning up' wasn't the best one I could have used but my point was that at some point a player/mans frustration will boil over and a reaction happens. When someone is getting jobbed over and over it's human to have emotions. Either that or one just bends over and takes it. The key here is how you state that both Don Chevrier and Howie Meeker exclaimed "in horror" at the stick work of both teams. Very seldom, if ever, do we hear about the dirty antics of the Soviets and it's always Canada that is portrayed as the bad guy. The reality is they weren't.

 

[cam042686]

Thats all fair. The last thing I wanted to do was derail the thread from the 74 Summit Series but the context of the convo just sort of evolved into including the 72 series into the discussion.

I fully agree and appreciate your original post about 74 being the forgotten series. But hey, at least this thread is still going almost a full 4 years after it was started!

In retrospect I guess the term 'manning up' wasn't the best one I could have used but my point was that at some point a player/mans frustration will boil over and a reaction happens. When someone is getting jobbed over and over it's human to have emotions. Either that or one just bends over and takes it. The key here is how you state that both Don Chevrier and Howie Meeker exclaimed "in horror" at the stick work of both teams. Very seldom, if ever, do we hear about the dirty antics of the Soviets and it's always Canada that is portrayed as the bad guy. The reality is they weren't.

It is human nature to "boil over" but I suppose that is why coaches like Father David Bauer and Billy Harris tried to set an example of decorum and class. And as Billy Harris said (and I paraphrase here) when a Canadian reporter asked him how he could remain so calm when Dombrowski was obviously cheating, "If I lose my cool then I am not focusing on the game and can't coach properly. As well, I can't ask my players to be in control if I am not."

I agree it wasn't always the Canadian players. Rick Smith and Brad Selwood told me the Soviets would kick your skate laces so as to cut them. Your skates would then literally fall off. I remember also in Game 5, when Paul Shmyr (perhaps in response to Boris Mikhailov's spear on Gerry Cheevers in Game 4) nearly took Mikhailov's head off with a cross check. Valery Kharlamov then responded by cross checking Andre Lacroix in the back so hard that Lacroix was left draped over the net. Neither team were angels.

Craig Wallace

 

[cam042686]

Thats all fair. The last thing I wanted to do was derail the thread from the 74 Summit Series but the context of the convo just sort of evolved into including the 72 series into the discussion.

I fully agree and appreciate your original post about 74 being the forgotten series. But hey, at least this thread is still going almost a full 4 years after it was started!

In retrospect I guess the term 'manning up' wasn't the best one I could have used but my point was that at some point a player/mans frustration will boil over and a reaction happens. When someone is getting jobbed over and over it's human to have emotions. Either that or one just bends over and takes it. The key here is how you state that both Don Chevrier and Howie Meeker exclaimed "in horror" at the stick work of both teams. Very seldom, if ever, do we hear about the dirty antics of the Soviets and it's always Canada that is portrayed as the bad guy. The reality is they weren't.

Please do understand I wasn't at all ticked off by the thread moving into a discussion of 72. That is quite natural - I just thought I;d bring it back to 74.

Craig Wallace

 

[cam042686]

A Czechoslovak all-star squad also toured the WHA and the games counted in the standings too.

If I am not mistaken didn't a team from Finland also tour the WHA and have those games count in the standings?

Craig Wallace

 

[Dark Shadows]

You are so right here! And think about this. Were we as Canadians not opening a very dangerous door when Clarke took out Kharlamov? By that I mean can you imagine if the Soviets had responded and say Petrov sent Phil Esposito to the hospital with a broken leg? The right response would have been for Harry Sinden to say "Well we are sorry to lose Phil but hey - we live by the sword and we die by the sword. I agree 100% with what Petrov did because that is also the way we play."

Of course that would not have occurred. There would have been weeping, wailing, and nashing of teeth in Canada over it. And yet while I deplore violence in hockey and am disgusted by fighting and such - it would have been just. When you go down that path you need to be fully prepared for what you may get in return.

Craig Wallace

Ill never defend what Clarke did to Kharlamov. Coach told him to take him out and he did it. However, the Russians were using pretty sneaky and tactics to play dirty. Constant subtle spearing behind the knees, etc(Several Canadian players quote that the behinds of their legs were black and blue after every game)

 

[cam042686]

Ill never defend what Clarke did to Kharlamov. Coach told him to take him out and he did it. However, the Russians were using pretty sneaky and tactics to play dirty. Constant subtle spearing behind the knees, etc(Several Canadian players quote that the behinds of their legs were black and blue after every game)

Both sides could be "ugly." The Soviets (not all but some) would at times kick our skates to cut the laces. Rick Smith told me he was aghast at being spit on when the series began. Boris Mikhailov really hurt Gerry Cheevers in Game 4 with a viscous spear to the back of Cheevers leg.

But we were not angels. Gordie Howe broke (I believe it was Sergie Kapustin's) forearm with a slash. Rick Ley beat Valery Kharlamov into a bloody pulp at the end of Game 6. Andre Lacroix nearly sent Vladimir Petrov to the hospital in Game 7 with a spear to the groin (that Canadian referee Tom Brown didn't call.) Lacroix then got nailed for spearing 2 games later in Prague when Team Canada lost 3-1 to the Czechs.

I could go on. But this shows the levels that players on both teams would stoop to in the white hot intensity of International hockey.

Craig Wallace