Prospect Info: 17th Official Rangers Prospect Poll (Summer 2018): #1 Prospect

[The Crypto Guy]

Not disputing any of that.

Except the abusing the MHL part. He played what, 3 games there this season?

But, I’m open to discussing his MHL play. So I’d love your thoughts:

What are your thoughts on him being pushed off the puck by smaller players, or struggling to adjust when the defense forced the play against him?

He struggled a bit against some of the better players in his age group in the U20s. What adjustments do you see him making?

Any thoughts on some of the belief that he dominated the weaker competition in the MHL but has struggled against some of the better teams and defenses?

Wasnt he just coming back from a wrist injury during U20 tryouts? Could be why he struggled a bit. Seems like he gained more and more confidence as the season went on

 

[Edge]

I do agree with you that he still has to develop and that he has a longer runway than Chytil or Andersson do at this point, but I think you are underappreciating what he accomplished this year (and last year). For his age / stage of his development, he's an incredibly exciting prospect who profiles comparably to players who became franchise cornerstones for cup-contending teams.

See, now I’m not sure I really understand that.

I’ve repeatedly said, long before he was ever drafted, that from a pure talent standpoint he’s capable of being one of the top forwards in the draft and has elite talent. I’ve praised his big playoff performance, I’ve talked about his long-term potential.

But this is also a kid who had some struggles in the MHL and brings with him a few red flags. This isn’t a kid whose been chosen to represent his country, this isn’t a kid who adjusted as well as can be hoped against teenagers when they didn’t give him time and space. This is a kid whose KHL season really came down to his amazing playoff performance.

In the context of best prospects, we’re putting him against a goalie who has been arguably one of the best in the world outside the NHL for more than a season now and just keeps getting better, even when we wonder if he can.

Likewise we have a kid who was barely 18 and looked very good playing against men in the AHL and in a limited run in the NHL.

We have another kid who played 100 someodd games last year, mostly against men, led his national team, played in every situation imaginable, and also had a very good run in both the AHL and NHL.

So really, my problem isn’t against Kravtsov, it’s in the the belief that the three guys I just described have some unbelievable accomplishments under their belt IN ADDITION to their talent.

That’s not a knock on Kravtsov, that’s a nod to a pretty awesome year or years(s) by our existing top prospects.

Kravtsov has a good year, but the stuff I just listed isn’t exactly a pretty good year in the OHL.

 

[Edge]

Wasnt he just coming back from a wrist injury during U20 tryouts? Could be why he struggled a bit. Seems like he gained more and more confidence as the season went on

If we’re being honest, he kind of underwhelmed when he was being evaluated for inclusion in certain teams as well.

That’s why you tend to hear comments about how he hasn’t yet fully embraced how good he can be, or that he had players with significantly less talent assert themselves over him.

By no means is that a death sentence, nor does it take away from his potential. But I mention it to show two things:

1. Boy got some work to do

2. Heaven help the competition if he puts it together.

 

[Polar Bear]

If we’re being honest, he kind of underwhelmed when he was being evaluated for inclusion in certain teams as well.

That’s why you tend to hear comments about how he hasn’t yet fully embraced how good he can be, or that he had players with significantly less talent assert themselves over him.

By no means is that a death sentence, nor does it take away from his potential. But I mention it to show two things:

1. Boy got some work to do

2. Heaven help the competition if he puts it together.

Number 2 made me laugh. Lol

 

[Fvital92]

See, now I’m not sure I really understand that.

I’ve repeatedly said, long before he was ever drafted, that from a pure talent standpoint he’s capable of being one of the top forwards in the draft and has elite talent. I’ve praised his big playoff performance, I’ve talked about his long-term potential.

But this is also a kid who had some struggles in the MHL and brings with him a few red flags. This isn’t a kid whose been chosen to represent his country, this isn’t a kid who adjusted as well as can be hoped against teenagers when they didn’t give him time and space. This is a kid whose KHL season really came down to his amazing playoff performance.

In the context of best prospects, we’re putting him against a goalie who has been arguably one of the best in the world outside the NHL for more than a season now and just keeps getting better, even when we wonder if he can.

Likewise we have a kid who was barely 18 and looked very good playing against men in the AHL and in a limited run in the NHL.

We have another kid who played 100 someodd games last year, mostly against men, led his national team, played in every situation imaginable, and also had a very good run in both the AHL and NHL.

So really, my problem isn’t against Kravtsov, it’s in the the belief that the three guys I just described have some unbelievable accomplishments under their belt IN ADDITION to their talent.

That’s not a knock on Kravtsov, that’s a nod to a pretty awesome year or years(s) by our existing top prospects.

Kravtsov has a good year, but the stuff I just listed isn’t exactly a pretty good year in the OHL.

The majority vote thinking about potential and not probability of a prospect to achieve his potential.

 

[Edge]

I’m having multiple conversations here so it can get a little confusing. Let me recap:

1. Kravtsov has the talent to be a top line player.

2. Kravtsov has the talent to leap frog our other players.

3. But, Kravtsov isn’t there YET. Not because of he’s inferior, but because Shestyorkin, Andersson and Chytil are all coming off pretty amazing seasons in addition to their own high upsides and talents.

4. That’s not a bad thing. Frankly, that’s a very good thing for the Rangers and potentially a very bad thing for other teams.

5. Kravtsov could eclipse every forward we currently have — with time. If he puts his own skill set together like Chytil did last year, he could make that claim by Christmas. But I just don’t think we’re at that point yet. Not with what Shestyorkin, Chytil and Andersson did last year. That was about as amazing as anything I’ve ever seen two Ranger prospects do in their D-1 seasons.

 

[Fvital92]

I’m having multiple conversations here so it can get a little confusing. Let me recap:

1. Kravtsov has the talent to be a top line player.

2. Kravtsov has the talent to leap frog our other players.

3. But, Kravtsov isn’t there YET. Not because of he’s inferior, but because Shestyorkin, Andersson and Chytil are all coming off pretty amazing seasons in addition to their own high upsides and talents.

4. That’s not a bad thing. Frankly, that’s a very good thing for the Rangers and potentially a very bad thing for other teams.

5. Kravtsov could eclipse every forward we currently have — with time. If he puts his own skill set together like Chytil did last year, he could make that claim by Christmas. But I just don’t think we’re at that point yet. Not with what Shestyorkin, Chytil and Andersson did last year. That was about as amazing as anything I’ve ever seen two Ranger prospects do in their D-1 seasons.

I just don't get why Shestyorkin gets so much love and Georgiev don't. Georgiev was sensational for us last year and was also pretty good in the AHL.

 

[Edge]

I just don't get why Shestyorkin gets so much love and Georgiev don't. Georgiev was sensational for us last year and was also pretty good in the AHL.

Track record.

Georgiev looked very good in the NHL.

He looked good in the AHL as well, though I don’t know if anyone would’ve looked at him and instantly said NHL starter.

Prior to that you have very promising results in Finland, but also a guy who saw somewhat limited playing time.

You could probably make a somewhat similar argument for Shestyorkin as well, but he’s played a lot of highly competitive hockey and out up some amazing numbers just about every situation he’s in.

I think the key difference is that Shestyorkin’s been playing on bigger stages in the KHL and doing it for several years now.

With goaltending being a somewhat volatile positiob, not unlike a young pitcher in baseball, there’s a certain level of comfort that’s developed there.

I think there’s a sense of waiting and seeing how Georgiev does in year two, when he’s not such a general unknown to teams in the league. Is he as great as he showed, or will he settle into a good, but not necesssrily great performance in year two?

If he picks up where he left off, he’ll be right up there. But I get the sense that people aren’t quite as sure about that yet.

 

[pblawr]

Not disputing any of that.

Except the abusing the MHL part. He played what, 3 games there this season?

But, I’m open to discussing his MHL play. So I’d love your thoughts:

What are your thoughts on him being pushed off the puck by smaller players, or struggling to adjust when the defense forced the play against him?

He struggled a bit against some of the better players in his age group in the U20s. What adjustments do you see him making?

Any thoughts on some of the belief that he dominated the weaker competition in the MHL but has struggled against some of the better teams and defenses?

He did only play 3 games in the MHL. But in the games he did play, he scored at almost 2x the rate of the MHL's leading scorer this year. He scored almost a PPG in the VHL this year too. He actually scored at a higher rate in the VHL than Denisenko did in the MHL this year. I think debating what "abusing the league" means is kind of semantics. My point is that his production in the MHL last year and outside the KHL this year were also very impressive. It isn't just one small sample.

I know what you mean about him getting pushed off the puck. He ended up losing his footing in a lot of the puck battles in the KHL games I saw too. Part of the reason it happens, in my view, is because he's aggressive about engaging in puck battles and fights hard for the puck. Callahan gets knocked to the ice pretty often in puck battles too. I would take that over a kid who shies away from puck battles every time. But Kravstov is a pretty tall, skinny kid, with a high center of gravity and I would agree that he needs to get stronger. The thing is, he's only 18 years old and his body will fill out. At the end of the day, he's 6'3" and he's a fantastic skater with great hands, so I think his ability to protect the puck should be fine.

More importantly, he put up comparable production to Tarasenko, Panarin, Kuznetsov, and Kucherov, despite the fact that he got pushed off the puck. In my view, it represents upside more than it does cause for concern.

Regarding your last two points, he did very well against men in the 2nd best league in the world this year. He probably faced the highest level of competition of all the prospects that were drafted this year. So I would argue that adjusting to the competition is a smaller issue for him than it is the vast majority of prospects who were drafted this year.

 

[Edge]

He did only play 3 games in the MHL. But in the games he did play, he scored at almost 2x the rate of the MHL's leading scorer this year. He scored almost a PPG in the VHL this year too. He actually scored at a higher rate in the VHL than Denisenko did in the MHL this year. I think debating what "abusing the league" means is kind of semantics. My point is that his production in the MHL last year and outside the KHL this year were also very impressive. It isn't just one small sample.

I know what you mean about him getting pushed off the puck. He ended up losing his footing in a lot of the puck battles in the KHL games I saw too. Part of the reason it happens, in my view, is because he's aggressive about engaging in puck battles and fights hard for the puck. Callahan gets knocked to the ice pretty often in puck battles too. I would take that over a kid who shies away from puck battles every time. But Kravstov is a pretty tall, skinny kid, with a high center of gravity and I would agree that he needs to get stronger. The thing is, he's only 18 years old and his body will fill out. At the end of the day, he's 6'3" and he's a fantastic skater with great hands, so I think his ability to protect the puck should be fine.

More importantly, he put up comparable production to Tarasenko, Panarin, Kuznetsov, and Kucherov, despite the fact that he got pushed off the puck. In my view, it represents upside more than it does cause for concern.

Regarding your last two points, he did very well against men in the 2nd best league in the world this year. He probably faced the highest level of competition of all the prospects that were drafted this year. So I would argue that adjusting to the competition is a smaller issue for him than it is the vast majority of prospects who were drafted this year.

What are your thoughts on the WJC snub?

 

[Edge]

Generally speaking, one of the things I also factor into how I approach ranking our prospects is whether I would’ve traded one for the other.

For example, prior to Friday night, would I have traded Kravtsov for Chytil, Andersson or Shestyorkin?

Personally, no I would not have.

Would I have traded guys like Howden, Hajek, etc. for Kravtsov?

Yes, I would have.

Likewise, would I have traded Howden or Hajek for Miller?

No, I wouldn’t have.

Would I have traded ADA, Rykov or some others?

Yes.

That’s not the end all be all factor for me, but just an insight into a question I ask myself and factor into my opinion and thoughts.

 

[Polar Bear]

Generally speaking, one of the things I also factor into how I approach ranking our prospects is whether I would’ve traded one for the other.

For example, prior to Friday night, would I have traded Kravtsov for Chytil, Andersson or Shestyorkin?

Personally, no I would not have.

Would I have traded guys like Howden, Hajek, etc. for Kravtsov?

Yes, I would have.

Likewise, would I have traded Howden or Hajek for Miller?

No, I wouldn’t have.

Would I have traded ADA, Rykov or some others?

Yes.

That’s not the end all be all factor for me, but just an insight into a question I ask myself and factor into my opinion and thoughts.

Maybe I just don't love Howden as much as some of you, but I absolutely rather have Miller. Then again, I'm just super high on him as well.

 

[pblawr]

I’m having multiple conversations here so it can get a little confusing. Let me recap:

1. Kravtsov has the talent to be a top line player.

2. Kravtsov has the talent to leap frog our other players.

3. But, Kravtsov isn’t there YET. Not because of he’s inferior, but because Shestyorkin, Andersson and Chytil are all coming off pretty amazing seasons in addition to their own high upsides and talents.

4. That’s not a bad thing. Frankly, that’s a very good thing for the Rangers and potentially a very bad thing for other teams.

5. Kravtsov could eclipse every forward we currently have — with time. If he puts his own skill set together like Chytil did last year, he could make that claim by Christmas. But I just don’t think we’re at that point yet. Not with what Shestyorkin, Chytil and Andersson did last year. That was about as amazing as anything I’ve ever seen two Ranger prospects do in their D-1 seasons.

I think we are largely in agreement on all these points. I actually voted for Chytil instead of Kravstov this round. But I will probably vote for Kravstov over Lias and Shestyorkin next round.

I agree that Shestyorkin's accomplishments are the most impressive of anyone in our prospect pool, but I tend to devalue goalie prospects relative to position players because I think goalies are tougher to project and have to get over a higher threshold to add value at the NHL level.

In terms of Kravstov vs Andersson, I think we would probably agree that:
- Andersson has a higher likelihood of becoming an NHL player
- Andersson has a higher likelihood of becoming a player who could be the 4th best forward on a cup contending team
- Kravstov has a higher likelihood of becoming a player who could be a franchise cornerstone on a cup contending team

Between Kravstov and Andersson, I think it really comes down to how you weigh upside vs likelihood. I tend to skew towards upside because I think finding the franchise cornerstone players is the toughest part of a building a cup-contending team, but I would concede that there's no clear answer.

 

[Good Intentions]

Chytil is our clear #1 ace right now.
Add Lundkvist and Hajek.

My take on our rankings, 6.24.18 -
1. Filip Chytil, F - clear cut #1 with 1st tier potential, franchise power forward
2. Vitali Kravtsov, F - draft position and short term KHL obligation springs him up.
3. Igor Shestyorkin, G - B. Point was the Round 3 hit in 2014. Shestyorkin (Round 4) is next.
4. Lias Andersson, F - Slight stock drop, ceiling doesn't appear as high - but very safe NHL future.
5. K'Andre Miller, D - Huge upside, will be in our Top 5 for years to come. I'd bet on him.
6. Anthony DeAngelo, D - I'm not a fan, but I recognize the skill. Deserves to be up here.
7. Brett Howden, C - Could be a generous spot, but by all accounts should be a quality 3rd liner.
8. Nils Lundkvist, D - 28 OV speaks. Probably as far off as a Miller, but a safer bet as an NHL'er.
9. Libor Hajek, D - Quickly emerged as the #1 prospect from the sell-off. He'll be a Ranger.
10. Neal Pionk, D - Deserves this slot, 28 pro games doesn't lie. I think he has an 8-10 year career.
11. Ryan Lindgren, D - Personal favorite, really like his presence. 2 years away from Broadway.
12. Alexander Georgiev, G - Modest ranking. Wouldn't surprise me if he's our #1 after Henrik.
13. Yegor Rykov, D - Good return on Grabner. Unclear whether he factors in our plans, or we in his.
14. Jacob Ragnarsson, D - Bloodlines and two-way game, he's going to climb
15. Ty Ronning, F - 61 goals in WHL pushed him from after-thought to prospect. Will be 21 in HFD.
16. Sean Day, D - 2018 should be a huge year for him in either direction. A lot of HFD competition.
17. Joey Keane, D - Intriguing draft pick, should be in competition with Day (above)
18. Nico Gross, D - I recall Phillippe Furrer about 15 years ago. I know how this Swiss thing goes...
19. Vinni Littieri, F - Won a spot out of camp last fall, was that his peak?
20. Morgan Barron, F - Wouldn't be shocked if he becomes a Quinn guy.
21. Ville Meskanen, F - Difficult to gauge where he belongs. A year ago, would be in our Top 12.
22. Michael Lindqvist - See above. Supposedly has a pretty good snipe, maybe he moves up here.
23. Lauri Pajuniemi, F - Seems like good value, fairly late. Don't know much about him.

 

[pblawr]

What are your thoughts on the WJC snub?

I think his results in the KHL came against better players and across a bigger sample. Plus, the Russian selections were just weird this year. Look at what happened with Denisenko and Svechnikov at U18's.

 

[Fvital92]

Track record.

Georgiev looked very good in the NHL.

He looked good in the AHL as well, though I don’t know if anyone would’ve looked at him and instantly said NHL starter.

Prior to that you have very promising results in Finland, but also a guy who saw somewhat limited playing time.

You could probably make a somewhat similar argument for Shestyorkin as well, but he’s played a lot of highly competitive hockey and out up some amazing numbers just about every situation he’s in.

I think the key difference is that Shestyorkin’s been playing on bigger stages in the KHL and doing it for several years now.

With goaltending being a somewhat volatile positiob, not unlike a young pitcher in baseball, there’s a certain level of comfort that’s developed there.

I think there’s a sense of waiting and seeing how Georgiev does in year two, when he’s not such a general unknown to teams in the league. Is he as great as he showed, or will he settle into a good, but not necesssrily great performance in year two?

If he picks up where he left off, he’ll be right up there. But I get the sense that people aren’t quite as sure about that yet.

I understand your point, but like you said goalies are weird, I'm more comfortable with Georgiev because he already showed that he can play in NHL (smaller ice, more traffic in front of the net), despite the small sample size.
Hopefully they both end up being awesome goalies.

 

[Fvital92]

What are your thoughts on the WJC snub?

Russia National Team always make some weird decision, they played Svechnikov like a 3rd liner in a pretty weak russian team. Denisenko was also snubbed. I don't think we should hold that against Kravtsov.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Russia National Team always make some weird decision, they played Svechnikov like a 3rd liner in a pretty weak russian team. Denisenko was also snubbed. I don't think we should hold that against Kravtsov.

They lean heavy toward 19-20 year olds, with their selections and roles on the team

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Don't think you can logically put him number one when Chytil has already proven (albeit a small sample size) that he can produce well for his age at the NHL already.

Why? Aren't we looking for the best prospect in this poll? Or is it the most NHL proven player?

Nothing against Chytil, but he hasn't really proven anything in the NHL yet. 3 points in 9 games. Thats really not anything you can say good or bad. Its not enough to draw a conclusion. If we are going off most NHL proven, Pionk wins this easily.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

If we're still taking votes to add, add Howden.

Went with Kravtsov.

 

[Vitto79]

Jesus. DeAngelo criminally underrated.

Sure hope your right . I’m all for giving him this year to show what he can do I’m just skeptical when Pionk outshined him last year

 

[Mac n Gs]

This was tough to choose between Shesty and Chytil, but I went with Chytil both due to position and how he had ridiculous numbers for one of the youngest players ever in the AHL.

Like Edge said, Shesty has the track record to back it up, so he’s easily the #2 for me- and he and Chytil are in their own tier. I’d still have Lias over Kravtsov too.

Add Hajek

 

[WeRa]

Filip Chytil. Add Howden ... Hajek .. Pionk?

 

[darko]

Lias add Howden

 

[darko]

ADA, Pionk eligible?