More MVP deserving: Kuch vs Mackinnon vs McDavid?

[LemonSauceD]

What’s more impressive? A defenseman on pace for 100 points or 75 goals from a forward? Aside from the fact that there’s two guys who might reach 130+ points.

 

[wetcoast]

If McDavid ends up taking the Ross, especially if he puts some distance between him and Kuch I fully expect Kuch to not be a finalist. Don't think he has the narrative going for him.

My point was this is still Mack's to lose and he will be a finalist and probably winner if the season ended today.

What each of the 4 guys do down the stretch will matter of course too.

What’s more impressive? A defenseman on pace for 100 points or 75 goals from a forward? Aside from the fact that there’s two guys who might reach 130+ points.

Dunno as Hughes has dropped off and is pacing for 98 now.

3 guys could reach 130 points, another guy score 75 goals and a Dman who is excellent both ways could crack 100 points.

Connor Hellebuyck is also having a very good season.

 

[authentic]

Auston Matthews

5 trolls laughed at this post. Keep up the good work guys

 

[authentic]

What’s more impressive? A defenseman on pace for 100 points or 75 goals from a forward? Aside from the fact that there’s two guys who might reach 130+ points.

Karlsson just scored 102 last season, two defensmen this year had/have the potential to do it, Makar was hurt but Hughes could still pull it off. 75 goals is more impressive to me.

 

[Despote]

Karlsson just scored 102 last season, two defensmen this year had/have the potential to do it, Makar was hurt but Hughes could still pull it off. 75 goals is more impressive to me.

Josi came close two years ago too.

 

[Buck Naked]

What’s more impressive? A defenseman on pace for 100 points or 75 goals from a forward? Aside from the fact that there’s two guys who might reach 130+ points.

To be fair to Hughes though, it's not his point total that is the most impressive about his game this year. It's his impact on Vancouver as a team as soon as he sets his foot on the ice. Been a while since we saw that kind of play from a Dman over an entire season.

 

[Dave92]

League scoring is up and somehow people try to use that as evidence against the guy scoring all the goals instead of the ones relying on secondary assists that come from everyone else scoring more.

 

[authentic]

League scoring is up and somehow people try to use that as evidence against the guy scoring all the goals instead of the ones relying on secondary assists that come from everyone else scoring more.

There’s also 3 of them scoring at the same pace and no one within a birds eye view of Matthews in goals.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

We still pretending the Hart isn’t the Art Ross 2.0?

 

[Regal]

We still pretending the Hart isn’t the Art Ross 2.0?

It does go to the goal leader a fair amount as well. But it’s almost always one or the other if they make the playoffs.

 

[pcruz]

Why are people bringing up Matthews in a discussion about 3 other players?

It's weird.


From this set of players, the correct answer is McDavid.

Yes, it's an opinion, but it's also the objectively correct answer.

McDavid has consciously given up a portion of offensive production in order to be a more well rounded player and has helped change the fortunes of his team in doing so.
Yet he is still near the top of the league in points and offensive production, while being significantly lower in power play time on ice.

He plays the more difficult role of the 3 players (same as Mackinnon).

Personally, I don't think any of these 3 actually should win the Hart trophy, but between these 3, McDavid is the correct and obvious choice.

 

[bobholly39]

Still Kucherov as of today

McDavid getting closer. MacKinnon falling behind slightly. Matthews roaring upwards too

 

[TheGoldenJet]

McDavid has now tied Kucherov for 1st in points per game.

Should be a great finish to the scoring race indeed.

 

[bobholly39]

There’s also 3 of them scoring at the same pace and no one within a birds eye view of Matthews in goals.

I don't see why that matters. Points > goals has always been a thing in hockey. Those 3 guys ahead of Matthews have a pretty big gap in points, it shouldn't matter if it's one or 5 guys, if the gap is big enough in points, he probably doesn't get the hart above them.

I do think Matthews has a shot at winning the hart - but he needs to reduce the point gap at the top and increase his goal levels to maximize his chances. If he ends with ~105 points and ~68 goals, he definitely isn't winning the hart if others are at ~130-140 points. If Matthews can get up to ~115 points, and ~75 goals, and others are at ~125-130 points? That's a hell of a case he'd have.

I'll say this for Matthews - he is shooting up the scorers chart. He's up to 6th in scoring now, so he's doing all the right things to make a run for the hart trophy. I think he definitely doesn't win if season ended today, but there's a good chance his case just keeps on getting stronger between now and April,.

 

[bobholly39]

McDavid has now tied Kucherov for 1st in points per game.

Should be a great finish to the scoring race indeed.

Matthews is shooting up the rankings at the right time too.

On December 1st he was 29th in scoring and 23rd in points per game
On January 1st he was up to 8th in points per game and 11th in scoring.
And today - he's tied for 6th in scoring, and 5th in points per game.

Combine that with him being on pace for 77 goals in 81 games right now - he's really making a hell of a run at it.

 

[WingsFan95]

If matthews scores 70+ goals and 100+ points it has to be him right?

Those 3 are pacing for insane point totals, but McDavid literally had 153 points last year.

70+ goals hasnt happened in over 30 years.

THIS.

100 assists hasnt happened since 1991. And something that only Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr did is more impressive than something Nicholls, Kurri, Mogilny, and Selanne did.

It's kinda arbitrary if you want to make this argument since Selanne is one of the greatest goal scorers of all time while Nicholls and Kurri hit 70 & 71 with Gretzky feeding them the puck. There's nowhere near a Gretzky feeding Matthews. Mogilny meanwhile was a fantastic player who had some outlier seasons but again LaFontaine feeding him. However the 92-93 season is all kinds of whack from 84 game schedule to not only 2 horrific expansion teams but a pretty sizeable disparity with some bottom teams. It is the highest scoring season I think on record even beating out the 80s.

Anyways, by your logic there's several legendary goal scorers who never managed to hit 70 while Gilmour, Thornton and Oates hit 95, 96 & 97 assist totals.

I disagree. 11 of those 13 assist seasons came from one guy who broke the sport offensively. 100 assists is more impressive than 70 goals.

How about the fact it's objectively harder to score goals than assist on a goal, 2nd assists are a thing, improved goaltending is a thing and there's still a percentage factor making goal scoring a less dependable consistency.

 

[CDN24]

View attachment 823733

Because while he is 1st in goals out of the entire league he is tied for 100th in assists. Kucherov is 3rd in goals and tied for 2nd in assists, Mckinnon is 5th in goals and tied for 2nd in assists. McDavid is 40th in goals and 1st in assists. For MVP right now it has to be one of the guys who is top 5 in Goals, assists and points. That is Mackinnon or Kucherov

 

[WingsFan95]

I don't see why that matters. Points > goals has always been a thing in hockey. Those 3 guys ahead of Matthews have a pretty big gap in points, it shouldn't matter if it's one or 5 guys, if the gap is big enough in points, he probably doesn't get the hart above them.

I do think Matthews has a shot at winning the hart - but he needs to reduce the point gap at the top and increase his goal levels to maximize his chances. If he ends with ~105 points and ~68 goals, he definitely isn't winning the hart if others are at ~130-140 points. If Matthews can get up to ~115 points, and ~75 goals, and others are at ~125-130 points? That's a hell of a case he'd have.

Matthews winning the Hart just 2 years ago with 60 goals and 106 points (17 off 1st and in 6th place)

Some precedents to consider before that though as well:

91-Hull over Gretzky (32 point gap)
11-Perry over Daniel Sedin (6 point gap but also over a 6% differential for that season meanwhile only +5 in goals over 2nd)
13-Ovechkin ran away with the Hart in a shortened season because St. Louis and Stamkos were on same team, since could easily take out McDavid

*I did not mention Fedorov 94 because he was 10 points behind a Gretzky who didn't get a single vote due to his team's record and therefore Fedorov had a massive advantage there.

 

[bobholly39]

Matthews winning the Hart just 2 years ago with 60 goals and 106 points (17 off 1st and in 6th place)

Some precedents to consider before that though as well:

91-Hull over Gretzky (32 point gap)
11-Perry over Daniel Sedin (6 point gap but also over a 6% differential for that season meanwhile only +5 in goals over 2nd)
13-Ovechkin ran away with the Hart in a shortened season because St. Louis and Stamkos were on same team, since could easily take out McDavid

*I did not mention Fedorov 94 because he was 10 points behind a Gretzky who didn't get a single vote due to his team's record and therefore Fedorov had a massive advantage there.

Matthews winning the hart 2 years ago is actually a negative for him in the 2024 hart race. The fact that he already won a hart with "less points but more goals" will make the bar even higher for voters to vote for him again now.

Not that different from McDavid winning a hart with 150+points last year, and voter fatigue likely to hold him to a higher standard this year, which is why for McDavid to win the hart, he may need to not only win the ross, but to create a bit of a gap at the top too.

 

[LivingRentFree]

I disagree. 11 of those 13 assist seasons came from one guy who broke the sport offensively. 100 assists is more impressive than 70 goals.

God I hope this is you joking lol. 100 asssits is not even close to as good as 70 goals

 

[bossram]

Atm? Kucherov

End of the season? McDavid or Foegele

Yeah haha.

If TB makes the playoffs in the end, it probably has to be Kuch. He's dragged them there. Point is way behind him in scoring, Hedman's defensive results have cratered, and Vasi is not Vasi this season. Kuch has had way less help.

 

[authentic]

Why are people bringing up Matthews in a discussion about 3 other players?

It's weird.


From this set of players, the correct answer is McDavid.

Yes, it's an opinion, but it's also the objectively correct answer.

McDavid has consciously given up a portion of offensive production in order to be a more well rounded player and has helped change the fortunes of his team in doing so.
Yet he is still near the top of the league in points and offensive production, while being significantly lower in power play time on ice.

He plays the more difficult role of the 3 players (same as Mackinnon).

Personally, I don't think any of these 3 actually should win the Hart trophy, but between these 3, McDavid is the correct and obvious choice.

McDavid actually hasn’t given up any offense, he started the season playing injured and has 67 points in 34 games since then.

 

[TMLife17]

Of those three, at this exact moment in time, I would give it to Kucherov.

But Matthews is winning this thang.

 

[authentic]

I don't see why that matters. Points > goals has always been a thing in hockey. Those 3 guys ahead of Matthews have a pretty big gap in points, it shouldn't matter if it's one or 5 guys, if the gap is big enough in points, he probably doesn't get the hart above them.

I do think Matthews has a shot at winning the hart - but he needs to reduce the point gap at the top and increase his goal levels to maximize his chances. If he ends with ~105 points and ~68 goals, he definitely isn't winning the hart if others are at ~130-140 points. If Matthews can get up to ~115 points, and ~75 goals, and others are at ~125-130 points? That's a hell of a case he'd have.

I'll say this for Matthews - he is shooting up the scorers chart. He's up to 6th in scoring now, so he's doing all the right things to make a run for the hart trophy. I think he definitely doesn't win if season ended today, but there's a good chance his case just keeps on getting stronger between now and April,.

You don’t recall Brett Hull’s 1991 season? Because that’s what this is starting to look like except without 2 other players close to Gretzky in points

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Why are people bringing up Matthews in a discussion about 3 other players?

It's weird.


From this set of players, the correct answer is McDavid.

Yes, it's an opinion, but it's also the objectively correct answer.

McDavid has consciously given up a portion of offensive production in order to be a more well rounded player and has helped change the fortunes of his team in doing so.
Yet he is still near the top of the league in points and offensive production, while being significantly lower in power play time on ice.

He plays the more difficult role of the 3 players (same as Mackinnon).

Personally, I don't think any of these 3 actually should win the Hart trophy, but between these 3, McDavid is the correct and obvious choice.

Because the poll is completely invalid without him, you can't have a discussion about Hart candidates and not include the guy with 52 goals in 55 games.