More MVP deserving: Kuch vs Mackinnon vs McDavid?

[Regal]

Well it’s certainly worth mentioning considering how rare it is. If Matthews scored like this while being deployed in a heavy defensive role he would be the hands down best player in the league

He’s a unique player for sure. I guess I’m just thinking that in terms of how the game is played, there really shouldn’t be anything stopping great goalscorers from being good defensively while still in traditionally offensive roles, they just usually haven’t been.

 

[WingsFan95]

Matthews winning the hart 2 years ago is actually a negative for him in the 2024 hart race. The fact that he already won a hart with "less points but more goals" will make the bar even higher for voters to vote for him again now.

Not that different from McDavid winning a hart with 150+points last year, and voter fatigue likely to hold him to a higher standard this year, which is why for McDavid to win the hart, he may need to not only win the ross, but to create a bit of a gap at the top too.

Yeah but Kucherov won the Hart too. If we're looking at precedents than MacKinnon has a very high chance as being previously close but not yet having won it. McDavid despite his very deserving and efficient play is looking clearly as 4th due to the Draisaitl factor (who also won the Hart in case people forget).

So it's really going to come down to MacKinnon and Matthews in my opinion.


As an aside on GOAT goal scoring seasons I think the following all have merit:

Hull's 86
Gretzky's 87 & 91
Lemieux's 85 & 69 (96)
Esposito's 76


As special as Ovechkin's 65 was to me and my generation probably it's in that 2nd tier along with (IMO) Selanne & Mogilny's 76 (moreso Mogilny in less games and being younger) and Bossy's 69. Can't speak really to Bobby Hull or Richard's seasons knowing they'd statistically be up there but so little accessible footage.

 

[CN8]

Does matthews win if he gets 70 but isn’t top scorer on the Leafs?

 

[authentic]

Does matthews win if he gets 70 but isn’t top scorer on the Leafs?

Probably not if Kucherov and McDavid keep up their paces, one of them will win it. But who knows I could still see him getting a lot of votes no matter what if he gets 70. I think his assists will improve for the rest of the season though and perhaps his overall point total will go up a bit but his goal pace will likely decline, but the decline could still have him hit 70 as he is on pace for 75 currently.

 

[lawrence]

McDavid. He’s more important to his team than the other 2 guys to their teams.

I really feel Edmonton will crumble if you take him the roster as for the other 2 if you take them off those teams will still ok.

 

[bobholly39]

Does matthews win if he gets 70 but isn’t top scorer on the Leafs?

There's so many ways this can play out still. You can't ask a question like this without also suggesting what the other 3 will do, because it's impossible to say without that.

70 goals while the other 3 top/push 140 points? Nope - Matthews won't win.
If the other 3 top out at ~125-130 points, and Matthews does 70+....maybe even 75+? Much better shot for Matthews.

I think Nylander (or Marner technically whose catching up too) topping Matthews in points would also be a negative for Matthews in the hart race - but I think that's less important than what Matthews himself does and in relation to MacKinnon/Kucherov/McDavid. He could still win hart even if Nylander tops him by 1 point, if he has enough goals and if the 3 leaders slow down some.

McDavid. He’s more important to his team than the other 2 guys to their teams.

I really feel Edmonton will crumble if you take him the roster as for the other 2 if you take them off those teams will still ok.

McDavid is most important to his team in a vacuum, 100%. No one denies that - he's the best player for a reason. But this year, Kucherov carried a weaker Tampa team all year long, so in terms of "team value/being relied on" he's up there too and possibly ahead of McDavid.

Also - McDavid just won last year's hart in a landslide. Voters love rewarding other players - in fact to win back to back harts, usually the bar is much higher in the 2nd year. Those are all dynamics that play against him.

The only reason McDavid is in the running for Hart this year in my opinion is the absolutely insane turnaround both he and Oilers had after the first 6 weeks of the season being a complete write-off. If you changed nothing to McDavid's point totals nor Oiler's place in standing today - but if they had accomplished that by being consistent all year without the horrid start - I thin McDavid's case for the hart would be almost inexistant today vs the other 3. But - that turnaround was tremendous and spectacular, and that's the biggest reason he's in the running for hart I think.

 

[bobholly39]

Yeah but Kucherov won the Hart too. If we're looking at precedents than MacKinnon has a very high chance as being previously close but not yet having won it. McDavid despite his very deserving and efficient play is looking clearly as 4th due to the Draisaitl factor (who also won the Hart in case people forget).

So it's really going to come down to MacKinnon and Matthews in my opinion.


As an aside on GOAT goal scoring seasons I think the following all have merit:

Hull's 86
Gretzky's 87 & 91
Lemieux's 85 & 69 (96)
Esposito's 76


As special as Ovechkin's 65 was to me and my generation probably it's in that 2nd tier along with (IMO) Selanne & Mogilny's 76 (moreso Mogilny in less games and being younger) and Bossy's 69. Can't speak really to Bobby Hull or Richard's seasons knowing they'd statistically be up there but so little accessible footage.

I agree with the idea of Ovechkin's 65 goals being tier 2 for best peak goal-scoring seasons ever.

Bobby Hull has 1, Gretzkty 2, Brett Hull 1, Lemieux 2 (or 3? I love 1993 too, 69 goals in 60 games). I think those are all tier 1.

Matthews has a great chance to join that tier 1 of best peak goal-scoring seasons this year. In fact if he tops 75+, he'd probably have an argument for #1.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

Depends on what the definition is this year, if it’s the Taylor Hall definition than it’s Kuch. Kucherov has 39 points more than his next highest teammate, and has his team in a playoff spot despite having the 3rd worst SV% and an AHL-calibre defense. He needs to win the Art Ross though.

If we’re thinking most outstanding player, then you get into the McDavid/Matthews discussion. But even in that definition Kucherov has an argument.

 

[VinikToWinIt]

McDavid. He’s more important to his team than the other 2 guys to their teams.

I really feel Edmonton will crumble if you take him the roster as for the other 2 if you take them off those teams will still ok.

You're seriously saying this about a team in the second wild card slot where the second leading scorer is 40(!!!) points below Kucherov?

 

[dirtydanglez]

5 trolls laughed at this post. Keep up the good work guys

tough week huh

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yeah but Kucherov won the Hart too. If we're looking at precedents than MacKinnon has a very high chance as being previously close but not yet having won it. McDavid despite his very deserving and efficient play is looking clearly as 4th due to the Draisaitl factor (who also won the Hart in case people forget).

So it's really going to come down to MacKinnon and Matthews in my opinion.


As an aside on GOAT goal scoring seasons I think the following all have merit:

Hull's 86
Gretzky's 87 & 91
Lemieux's 85 & 69 (96)
Esposito's 76


As special as Ovechkin's 65 was to me and my generation probably it's in that 2nd tier along with (IMO) Selanne & Mogilny's 76 (moreso Mogilny in less games and being younger) and Bossy's 69. Can't speak really to Bobby Hull or Richard's seasons knowing they'd statistically be up there but so little accessible footage.

Ovechkin's 65 goal season adjusts to higher than all of those seasons you listed aside from Hull's 86 season.

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Brett Hull (78), 2. Alex Ovechkin (72), 3. Mario Lemieux (71), 4. Cooney Weiland (70), Phil Esposito (70), 6. Wayne Gretzky (69), 7. Babe Dye (68), Wayne Gretzky (68), Steven Stamkos (68), Auston Matthews (68)

www.hockey-reference.com

It also doesn't pass the smell test that all 6 of the greatest goal scoring seasons in 100+ years all took place within a 15 year window and that window just so happens to correspond with by far the highest scoring era in history.