Mike Richter or Curtis Joseph in Philadelphia

[Bleedred]

Richter wasn't THAT bad from 97-02. He had a poor season (.893) in 00-01, but having a .906 save percentage in those years, wasn't like Ondrej Pavelec having a .906 save percentage in the 2010's. Richter was actually above average in a few of those years. Save percentages were lower in those years. Even just 10 years ago in the 06-07 season, .905 was the league average save percentage that year. I wouldn't say Richter was amazing in those years, but he probably gets **** on because all that's remembered is how many consecutive years the Rangers missed the playoffs from 98 until 06, where Richter was their starter there, up until about a month or so into the 02-03 season. Dunham's 03-04 performance after Richter had to retire was horrific. If anything, the Richter of the 94-95 lockout shortened season was worse than the Richter from any of the Rangers late 90's/early 00's dark years.

From what I remember, Richter was courted by the Flyers in 98. They wound up signing Vanbiesbrouck, as Richter ultimately decided to stay with the Rangers.

The Red Wings probably still beat the 97 Flyers in the SCF, if they had better goaltending, but the Hextall/Snow tandem was arguably one of the most poorly goaltended (in the playoffs) teams to reach the Stanley Cup Finals. Even by the standards of the lower save percentages era. The Beezer/Hextall tandem was a slight improvement, even though Beezer was older and Hextall just wasn't good at all anymore.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's also crazy that they also managed to lose a two time Vezina home grown talent in Sergei Bobrovsky in the carousel because they had to bring in an older, worse Russian goalie.

To be fair, they weren't fixing Bobrovsky either...when Columbus got him, the first thing they did was fix his biggest flaw, which was keeping his chest up on his big pushes...it really made all the difference...with how he was progressimg in Philadelphia, it is really doubtful he becomes anything like what he is today...

Plus, doesn't seem like a much of a help in a playoff series himself...

 

[Rebels57]

That's a really weird take.

Philadelphia faced Curtis Joseph and the Leafs in the opening round of the playoffs and the Leafs went on to win that series on the heroics of Curtis Joseph, and went all the way to the ECF that season. If they had Cujo it's pretty likely they would have had a great chance to get to the finals against Dallas.

The 99 series? Vanbiesbrouck had a 1.46 GAA. for Philadelphia. He can't score goals too, which was the bigger problem.

 

[Rebels57]

To be fair, they weren't fixing Bobrovsky either...when Columbus got him, the first thing they did was fix his biggest flaw, which was keeping his chest up on his big pushes...it really made all the difference...with how he was progressimg in Philadelphia, it is really doubtful he becomes anything like what he is today...

Plus, doesn't seem like a much of a help in a playoff series himself...

Also true. Columbus did a great job at adjusting Bobs style. In Philly, he left the top of the net open far too much.

 

[Regal]

The 99 series? Vanbiesbrouck had a 1.46 GAA. for Philadelphia. He can't score goals too, which was the bigger problem.

But if Joseph isn't on the Leafs then they might have actually scored against another goalie. Though then the question is if they still face them and how they'd do against another team if not.

 

[jonnygrossman89]

From what I remember, Richter was courted by the Flyers in 98. They wound up signing Vanbiesbrouck, as Richter ultimately decided to stay with the Rangers.

The Red Wings probably still beat the 97 Flyers in the SCF, if they had better goaltending, but the Hextall/Snow tandem was arguably one of the most poorly goaltended (in the playoffs) teams to reach the Stanley Cup Finals. Even by the standards of the lower save percentages era. The Beezer/Hextall tandem was a slight improvement, even though Beezer was older and Hextall just wasn't good at all anymore.

Yeah. The Flyers offered to make Richter an offer only if he agreed to not take it back to the Rangers. But Richter said no. Looking back on it now, it probably wouldn't have mattered whom the Flyers chose to be their goalie. They had other big issues to remedy too. Had they solved those other issues, then Vanbiesbrouck may have very well led the Flyers to one or two Stanley Cups.

 

[Boxscore]

I always wanted to see Richter in Orange & Black.

 

[Bleedred]

Yeah. The Flyers offered to make Richter an offer only if he agreed to not take it back to the Rangers. But Richter said no. Looking back on it now, it probably wouldn't have mattered whom the Flyers chose to be their goalie. They had other big issues to remedy too. Had they solved those other issues, then Vanbiesbrouck may have very well led the Flyers to one or two Stanley Cups.

I think Richter by that point, was much better than Vanbiesbrouck. Beezer was still really good in Florida, probably the best expansion team goalie from any of the 90's-00's expansion teams. I think Richter still had a little more left by that time. His best was definitely better than Beezer's best, at least by the late 90's I think it was.

I always wanted to see Richter in Orange & Black.

I'm glad he didn't haha. He was one of my favorite players in the league, that didn't play on my favorite team. It was enough to have to watch him on the Rangers, didn't wanna have to watch him on the Flyers too.

 

[jonnygrossman89]

I think Richter by that point, was much better than Vanbiesbrouck. Beezer was still really good in Florida, probably the best expansion team goalie from any of the 90's-00's expansion teams. I think Richter still had a little more left by that time. His best was definitely better than Beezer's best, at least by the late 90's I think it was.

Truth be told, Mike Richter was never going to leave the Rangers. He was using other teams to force the Rangers to jack up their offer. If the Flyers weren't going to sign Richter, then they should have signed Curtis Joseph. But once again, had they solved other issues, such as sub-par defensive play and lack of team leadership, John Vanbiesbrouck may have led them to a Cup or two.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Flyers win a Cup with Joseph if they had signed him. CuJo was a workhorse who would have gotten it done one of those years for Philadelphia

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

With all due respect to John Vanbiesbrouck, either Mike Richter or Curtis Joseph probably would have led Philadelphia to a Cup win.

Those late 90s/early 00s Flyers were good, but had so many other missing pieces. Even with peak Richter or Joseph they don’t beat any of Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey, or Dallas between 1995 to 2003 as the top team in the league.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Those late 90s/early 00s Flyers were good, but had so many other missing pieces. Even with peak Richter or Joseph they don’t beat any of Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey, or Dallas between 1995 to 2003 as the top team in the league.

2000 Flyers were up 3-1 on the Devils with Boucher in net. Flyers Stars would have been a fun Cup Final, for talent on the ice reasons as well as the rivalry between the cities in football

 

[JianYang]

CuJo maybe might have moved the needle...but at what other costs?

Richter, outside of 1994-1997 is not that relevant to me overall...which is an overly harsh and too-succinct critique...but here we are...

I always looked at cujo as the kind of goalie that needed to feel the rubber alot to be at his best.

He had that in stl back when he made his name. He had that in Edmonton. And pat quinn's style also gave that to him in Toronto.

But in situations where he would be on a superior team that didn't allow much, I think cujo generally struggled. My recollection of those flyer teams is that they played alot along the wall and cycled. They didn't need their goalies to be superman, and so I think it would have been a bad fit.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I always looked at cujo as the kind of goalie that needed to feel the rubber alot to be at his best.

He had that in stl back when he made his name. He had that in Edmonton. And pat quinn's style also gave that to him in Toronto.

But in situations where he would be on a superior team that didn't allow much, I think cujo generally struggled. My recollection of those flyer teams is that they played alot along the wall and cycled. They didn't need their goalies to be superman, and so I think it would have been a bad fit.

Yep. Joseph struggled in Detroit during his regular seasons as he didn't see a ton of rubber and then would see a prime chance and let it in, giving up 3 goals on 19 shots or shit like that.

Joseph was better in the playoffs for the Wings, but those teams ran into prime Giguere and Kiprusoff.

 

[VanIslander]

I stand by what i said on this thread 7 years ago: Beezer was better than the other two.

This thread is wonky.

 

[MadLuke]

Beezer was better than the other two.

But quite older than Joseph, if you look at those 3 career after the 1998 season, Joseph gap with the other 2 is quite large.

Vezina finish
Joseph: 2-3-8-10
The other 2 combined.

99-02, Joseph won 32 playoff games.

Has for any prognostic that the Flyers win the cup with him, that sound quite the speculation,


99 : Stars
00: Devils
01: Avs
02: Wings
------ Joseph now old, Joseph contract over ?, Lindros done
03: devils

It is not like they would have had the better goaltender once... or the better team, maybe they win but they needed to beat the Devils and after that one of the Stars-Wings-Avs of that era....

 

[VanIslander]

But quite older than Joseph, if you look at those 3 career after the 1998 season, Joseph gap with the other 2 is quite large.

Vezina finish
Joseph: 2-3-8-10
The other 2 combined.

99-02, Joseph won 32 playoff games.

I know. I was there. Sundin & Yushkevich & co.

Two conference finals and one 2nd round berth. That's all.

Beezer put Florida on his back and went to the Stanley Cup Finals. After years in NY as #1. Richter got the cup but Beezer was fan favorite multiple years!

 

[MadLuke]

Beezer put Florida on his back and went to the Stanley Cup Finals. After years in NY as #1. Richter got the cup but Beezer was fan favorite multiple years!

Yes, but thats quite a long time before the timeline being talked about, Beezer in the real world went to the Flyers and did what he did.

Vanbiesbrouck can have a debate over Joseph obviously but not really his 35-36-37-38 years old version (versus 31-32-33-34 years old Joseph), he entered the nhl at 18 and became number one in 1984.... that was a lot of mileage.

Two conference finals and one 2nd round berth. That's all.

And who did better during that time, Roy-Hasek-Brodeur and Belfour ? And that's it ? Only 4 clear HOF... on superbe teams.

Not much to be ashamed of...

 

[VanIslander]

CuJo is Canadian, like you and i, and he played in Toronto for a while.

But that doesn't make it right to rate him first. I never thought him as good as Beezer. And it would take analytic ninja stats to overturn one's hundreds of eyeball tests.

Joseph is like Kirk Cousins, decent against average teams; Beezer is clutch, taking on the best as Brett Favre did.

 

[MadLuke]

But that doesn't make it right to rate him first.

I am not sure if this was the conversation, could have misread, we are not talking about rating him first, we are talking about the very specific 32-36 Cujo over the 35-39 version of Vanbiesbrouck, not the one that brought the Panthers in the final or Richter winning the cup and winning the world cup.

The one the Flyers got versus what Cujo would have been.

you can say you prefer 36 years old Vanbiesbrouck over 4 years younger CuJo obviously, it would be like talking were the Panthers being better with Belfour or Luongo talking about what Belfour did before the lock-out...

 

[VanIslander]

Er,... maybe i walked into an odd room.

I just said Beezer was better than Cujo.

Guess... bye....

 

[MadLuke]

Er,... maybe i walked into an odd room.

I just said Beezer was better than Cujo.

Guess... bye....

No you also added:
This thread is wonky.

Like Vanbiesbrouk being better than Cujo had something to do with this thread in question (which I implied to mean that Vanbiesbrouk was better for the Flyers than Joseph would have been in the real world, not in the one they get the younger version of him).

 

[SnowblindNYR]

CuJo maybe might have moved the needle...but at what other costs?

Richter, outside of 1994-1997 is not that relevant to me overall...which is an overly harsh and too-succinct critique...but here we are...

I still see some nostalgic Rangers fans say he was better than Lundqvist probably because of the cup.