Mike Richter or Curtis Joseph in Philadelphia

[jonnygrossman89]

While John Vanbiesbrouck played well for the Philadelphia Flyers, I still wonder what would have happened had the Philadelphia Flyers signed either Mike Richter or Curtis Joseph...

Would they have had improved their careers? Would Philadelphia have won a Stanley Cup or two?

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[Michael Farkas]

CuJo maybe might have moved the needle...but at what other costs?

Richter, outside of 1994-1997 is not that relevant to me overall...which is an overly harsh and too-succinct critique...but here we are...

 

[Epsilon]

CuJo maybe might have moved the needle...but at what other costs?

Richter, outside of 1994-1997 is not that relevant to me overall...which is an overly harsh and too-succinct critique...but here we are...

It's not harsh at all. Is there any player who gets more mileage out of one great playoff and one great international tournament?

As for Joseph, it's hard to pinpoint a particular series where he would have been a huge difference-maker. Goaltending was used as a scapegoat in Philadelphia but it was hardly the only problem those late 90s-early 00s Flyers teams had.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Richter, outside of 1994-1997 is not that relevant to me overall...which is an overly harsh and too-succinct critique...but here we are...

It's not harsh at all. Is there any player who gets more mileage out of one great playoff and one great international tournament?

Richter was incredible in the 94 and 97 playoffs, and dominant in the 96 WC and the 02 Olympics (often forgotten because the US was outclassed in the Gold-Medal Game against Canada). He was also very good in round one in 96 before getting destroyed by Pittsburgh in round two.

His stats post-98 are victim to one of the most dysfunctional teams in recent memory, and a ton of injuries as well. His play certainly was up and down as well, but most of the blame goes on the porous (at best) defense in front of him from 98 to 03.

Put Richter on Philly (i.e., a big-game goalie) and, if he stays healthy, they might have made more noise than they did.

 

[tony d]

I remember the summer all 3 were free agents. Was a big deal at the time. Given how Joseph did in Toronto got to think he could have led one of those Flyers team to a Cup win.

 

[jonnygrossman89]

I remember the summer all 3 were free agents. Was a big deal at the time. Given how Joseph did in Toronto got to think he could have led one of those Flyers team to a Cup win.

With all due respect to John Vanbiesbrouck, either Mike Richter or Curtis Joseph probably would have led Philadelphia to a Cup win.

 

[Michael Farkas]

No one was gonna "probably" do anything haha...they might have moved the needle a little bit perhaps...combined those two goalies played in 22 playoff years and played in exactly one Stanley Cup Final...and it was Richter in '94 on a stacked Rangers team, a farewell tour of the Edmonton Oilers dynasty in some respects and even then, it took every ounce they had to get past New Jersey and Vancouver...

That's just glorifying the potential of something that can never happen...

Beezer was giving up a shade over two goals per game during the regular year (2.19) and still only won 52 of 112 games...he led the entire playoffs in GAA (1.46) in the 1999 playoffs and went 2-4...

 

[Doctor No]

With all due respect to John Vanbiesbrouck, either Mike Richter or Curtis Joseph probably would have led Philadelphia to a Cup win.

Why did you ask the question if you already knew the apparent correct answer?

 

[Doctor No]

B]combined those two goalies played in 22 playoff years and played in exactly one Stanley Cup Final[/B]...and it was Richter in '94 on a stacked Rangers team

I'd argue that, unless you're on one of the top few teams each year, it's damned hard to get to the Finals.

In the current era, if you're a perfect average playoff team, it's a one-in-eight shot (just to make the Finals). Therefore, if you're not one of the stacked teams, your odds are lower than that.

 

[shadow1]

Joseph would have been a much better signing.

I'm not convinced they would have won a cup, though. Their best chance was 1999-2000, a post-season in which Brian Boucher was top notch.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Richter was incredible in the 94 and 97 playoffs, and dominant in the 96 WC and the 02 Olympics (often forgotten because the US was outclassed in the Gold-Medal Game against Canada). He was also very good in round one in 96 before getting destroyed by Pittsburgh in round two.

His stats post-98 are victim to one of the most dysfunctional teams in recent memory, and a ton of injuries as well. His play certainly was up and down as well, but most of the blame goes on the porous (at best) defense in front of him from 98 to 03.

Put Richter on Philly (i.e., a big-game goalie) and, if he stays healthy, they might have made more noise than they did.

I'm a Devils fan but to me Mike Richter is one of the most underrated goalies in the history of the nhl. If it wasn't for his knees and being on such bad teams post 97 he could of won well over 300 games and been a hall of famer. When he was on he was unbeatable.

 

[Doctor No]

When he was on he was unbeatable.

Isn't basically any good NHL starting goaltender unbeatable (in the sense you're using the word) when they're "on"?

 

[jonnygrossman89]

Why did you ask the question if you already knew the apparent correct answer?

Because I wanted to see what other people's opinions were. Also, to amend my statement, it probably wouldn't have mattered who was in goal for Philadelphia. I remember that the defense at that time needed some serious work and was not protecting Vanbiesbrouck all too well.

You can't expect your goalie(s) to make 30-40 saves every game.

 

[jonnygrossman89]

Joseph would have been a much better signing.

I'm not convinced they would have won a cup, though. Their best chance was 1999-2000, a post-season in which Brian Boucher was top notch.

Yeah. The defense needed serious work at that time.

 

[VanIslander]

While John Vanbiesbrouck played well for the Philadelphia Flyers, I still wonder what would have happened had the Philadelphia Flyers signed either Mike Richter or Curtis Joseph...

LOL. The Beezer was a better goaltender than either of those two.

His best years were earlier in his career elsewhere but his record in Philly was pretty good, too.

 

[Damisoph]

I remember the Leafs-Flyers series in 99 well. Cujo saved our ass. If I'm not mistaken, Leafs scored 9 goals in 6 games and won the series, so definitely not Vanbiesbrouck's fault.

 

[NYR94]

Summer of 98- Joseph, Richter and Vanbiesbrouck

Was reading comments from Bobby Clarke about the lost opportunity of the Lindros era and he lamented the fact that he signed Vanbiesbrouck instead of Curtis Joseph in the summer of 98 and it got me thinking.

The Rangers were a mess in subsequent years, but for the Maple Leafs and Flyers, do you think things would have been much different for them if the goalie carousel played out differently?

Does Cujo become the answer to Philly's goaltending questions and help them win a Cup in 99/early 2000s? Is Toronto still a top team in the East and do they make the conference finals twice if they go with Vanbiesbrouck or Richter?

 

[Rebels57]

Was reading comments from Bobby Clarke about the lost opportunity of the Lindros era and he lamented the fact that he signed Vanbiesbrouck instead of Curtis Joseph in the summer of 98 and it got me thinking.

The Rangers were a mess in subsequent years, but for the Maple Leafs and Flyers, do you think things would have been much different for them if the goalie carousel played out differently?

Does Cujo become the answer to Philly's goaltending questions and help them win a Cup in 99/early 2000s? Is Toronto still a top team in the East and do they make the conference finals twice if they go with Vanbiesbrouck or Richter?

Thing is..Beezer was excellent in the 99 Playoffs for the Flyers. He had a 1.46 GAA. in 6 games. The team just couldnt score for him.

Then by 2000, Brian Boucher took over for Beezer and was fantastic all the way up to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals. He could not have played any better. The Lindros injury debacle ultimately derailed the 99-00 team. They were up 3-1 in the ECF when the rumors of his return began..they dropped the next 3 with Lindros playing in the final 2 games (and well I might add..but the team lost its chemistry).

Then in 01, Boucher regressed but Cechmanek came along and was one of the best goalies in the league for 3 seasons..nearly topping Hasek for a Vezina.

In 2004 Robert Esche took over and was once again great in net with the Flyers going to Game 7 of the ECF yet again despite a decimated blueline in the Playoffs.

Long story short, CuJo wouldnt have gotten them over the top IMO because goaltending wasnt the reason they didnt win it all. The revolving door of netminders created a false narrative that they werent getting good goaltending.

A prime CuJo in 2010 = Cup though

 

[Regal]

Thing is..Beezer was excellent in the 99 Playoffs for the Flyers. He had a 1.46 GAA. in 6 games. The team just couldnt score for him.

Then by 2000, Brian Boucher took over for Beezer and was fantastic all the way up to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals. He could not have played any better. The Lindros injury debacle ultimately derailed the 99-00 team. They were up 3-1 in the ECF when the rumors of his return began..they dropped the next 3 with Lindros playing in the final 2 games (and well I might add..but the team lost its chemistry).

Then in 01, Boucher regressed but Cechmanek came along and was one of the best goalies in the league for 3 seasons..nearly topping Hasek for a Vezina.

In 2004 Robert Esche took over and was once again great in net with the Flyers going to Game 7 of the ECF yet again despite a decimated blueline in the Playoffs.

Long story short, CuJo wouldnt have gotten them over the top IMO because goaltending wasnt the reason they didnt win it all. The revolving door of netminders created a false narrative that they werent getting good goaltending.

A prime CuJo in 2010 = Cup though

Its pretty crazy how Philly keeps going through short cycles of goalies playing well then faltering and being replaced. Wouldn't be surprised if Elliott is great this year then outplayed by Neuvirtg the next

 

[tony d]

I remember that summer and those 3 goalies being free agents. I wonder how Philly would have done had they signed Joseph instead of Beezer.

 

[Epsilon]

One of the most bizarre narratives that took root and sustained itself during the last 1990s/early 2000s is that the Flyers' struggles were entirely due to their goaltending and not because all their high-profile, big-name, loud-mouthed offensive players couldn't score enough.

 

[Tawnos]

One of the most bizarre narratives that took root and sustained itself during the last 1990s/early 2000s is that the Flyers' struggles were entirely due to their goaltending and not because all their high-profile, big-name, loud-mouthed offensive players couldn't score enough.

Not entirely due to that, but I don't think I can remember a Flyers goalie, in the 90s or later, ever following up a good playoff performance with a second one.

 

[Rebels57]

Not entirely due to that, but I don't think I can remember a Flyers goalie, in the 90s or later, ever following up a good playoff performance with a second one.

This is also accurate.

They were finding good goaltending for short periods of time.

They couldnt lock down a long term #1

Mason was the longest tenured Flyer goalie since Hextall, and he too followed up a good playoff performance (2014) with a bad one (2016).

This is why Hextall has drafted a ton of goalies and may have at least two prospects with #1 potential in Hart and Sandstrom.

 

[Stephen]

It's not harsh at all. Is there any player who gets more mileage out of one great playoff and one great international tournament?

As for Joseph, it's hard to pinpoint a particular series where he would have been a huge difference-maker. Goaltending was used as a scapegoat in Philadelphia but it was hardly the only problem those late 90s-early 00s Flyers teams had.

That's a really weird take.

Philadelphia faced Curtis Joseph and the Leafs in the opening round of the playoffs and the Leafs went on to win that series on the heroics of Curtis Joseph, and went all the way to the ECF that season. If they had Cujo it's pretty likely they would have had a great chance to get to the finals against Dallas.

 

[Stephen]

Its pretty crazy how Philly keeps going through short cycles of goalies playing well then faltering and being replaced. Wouldn't be surprised if Elliott is great this year then outplayed by Neuvirtg the next

It's also crazy that they also managed to lose a two time Vezina home grown talent in Sergei Bobrovsky in the carousel because they had to bring in an older, worse Russian goalie.