Player Discussion Zdeno Chara - III

[BruinDust]

Sure, but you have to also consider the impact of them bringing back Chara. He's essentially a part time player that if they were being honest, would benefit from being spotted in specific situations. You factor that in, along with what young guys he's blocking, and you have to decide whether it's best to move on and let the next generation attempt to make the jump, or to see if you can get a few more miles out of a player with very little tread left. I personally would rather see them pull the band off quickly instead of limping along over the course of 3-4 years, which is what Chara's descent has been.

Why couldn't Chara come back as:

1) 3rd pair LD who would mentor Zboril/Lauzon/Clifton the same way he did McAvoy and Carlo before him.

2) Sit out the 2nd half of B2B games in favor of a young guy.

3) 3rd pair would reduce his defensive role as he would get a more even distribution of offensive/defensive zone starts.

4) He'd no longer be Option 1 on the PK (provided they brought in someone who could fill that role).

For a million per, I don't see how this could be a bad move for the Bruins. I mean, before mid-March he was the 1st pairing LD on the best defensive team in the league. On the 3rd pair that's an advantage if utilized correctly.

I think the guy should get one more year.

 

[LSCII]

Why couldn't Chara come back as:

1) 3rd pair LD who would mentor Zboril/Lauzon/Clifton the same way he did McAvoy and Carlo before him.

2) Sit out the 2nd half of B2B games in favor of a young guy.

3) 3rd pair would reduce his defensive role as he would get a more even distribution of offensive/defensive zone starts.

4) He'd no longer be Option 1 on the PK (provided they brought in someone who could fill that role).

For a million per, I don't see how this could be a bad move for the Bruins. I mean, before mid-March he was the 1st pairing LD on the best defensive team in the league. On the 3rd pair that's an advantage if utilized correctly.

I think the guy should get one more year.

It's really more about tying up a roster spot and blocking the young guys for a player that is not going to be here long term. If this was a scenario where they were going out and signing a top tier free agent to play D long term, I'd be okay with it. But to do this just to bring back a guy that ostensibly will retired at season's end? Not so much. Sure it's hard to say, but that's what needs to happen. Stop hanging on to the glory days just because he was a great player years ago. He's not that guy any more and it's impacting the roster, and the progression of their young d prospects. FWIW, if they could move Moore, and then use that money to keep Chara, I'd be okay with that. My fear though is that Cassidy will end up using Chara as if he's still a #1 if he's here.

 

[KrejciMVP]

I'd let Chara and Krug go and get Pietrangelo to pair with Mcavoy

 

[BruinDust]

It's really more about tying up a roster spot and blocking the young guys for a player that is not going to be here long term. If this was a scenario where they were going out and signing a top tier free agent to play D long term, I'd be okay with it. But to do this just to bring back a guy that ostensibly will retired at season's end? Not so much. Sure it's hard to say, but that's what needs to happen. Stop hanging on to the glory days just because he was a great player years ago. He's not that guy any more and it's impacting the roster, and the progression of their young d prospects. FWIW, if they could move Moore, and then use that money to keep Chara, I'd be okay with that. My fear though is that Cassidy will end up using Chara as if he's still a #1 if he's here.

Sure that could happen, but there is a way to use him effectively, like you said will Cassidy do it?

Also my scenario involved John Moore going elsewhere. I don't see room for both him and Chara occupying two of D-man spots 5 through 8.

He should help the progression of their young prospects, and Lauzon/Zboril/Clifton (I left out Vaak as he should be in Providence next year not Boston) shouldn't comprise the full-time 3rd pair, just give them chances on B2Bs while they rest Chara.

 

[Dr Hook]

My fear though is that Cassidy will end up using Chara as if he's still a #1 if he's here.

This. We have seen that movie many times before. Lauzon or Zboril has a tough time out there and bang, he's back getting 20+ a night because #veteran. Coaches are like people quitting smoking, you need to take all the smokes out of the house, car, and office

 

[TD Charlie]

This. We have seen that movie many times before. Lauzon or Zboril has a tough time out there and bang, he's back getting 20+ a night because #veteran. Coaches are like people quitting smoking, you need to take all the smokes out of the house, car, and office

That's a...perfect comparison actually.

I would also like Chara as a limited minutes guy, but over the last couple weeks have come to realize that if he plays then it's almost a guarantee that Cassidy trots him out there for 22 a night. I can't have that.

 

[JOKER 192]

Why couldn't Chara come back as:

1) 3rd pair LD who would mentor Zboril/Lauzon/Clifton the same way he did McAvoy and Carlo before him.

2) Sit out the 2nd half of B2B games in favor of a young guy.

3) 3rd pair would reduce his defensive role as he would get a more even distribution of offensive/defensive zone starts.

4) He'd no longer be Option 1 on the PK (provided they brought in someone who could fill that role).

For a million per, I don't see how this could be a bad move for the Bruins. I mean, before mid-March he was the 1st pairing LD on the best defensive team in the league. On the 3rd pair that's an advantage if utilized correctly.

I think the guy should get one more year.

For 1 M and used as described I'm in.

 

[JCRO]

Why couldn't Chara come back as:

1) 3rd pair LD who would mentor Zboril/Lauzon/Clifton the same way he did McAvoy and Carlo before him.

2) Sit out the 2nd half of B2B games in favor of a young guy.

3) 3rd pair would reduce his defensive role as he would get a more even distribution of offensive/defensive zone starts.

4) He'd no longer be Option 1 on the PK (provided they brought in someone who could fill that role).

For a million per, I don't see how this could be a bad move for the Bruins. I mean, before mid-March he was the 1st pairing LD on the best defensive team in the league. On the 3rd pair that's an advantage if utilized correctly.

I think the guy should get one more year.

Perfectly said. And Im all for it.

Especially in your first point- I too believe it would be huge for Lauzon/Zboril/Clifton to have him around this season.

Its also nice to not have to completely rely on Lauzon an entire season as a rookie. Ease him into full time for the following season.

 

[LSCII]

This. We have seen that movie many times before. Lauzon or Zboril has a tough time out there and bang, he's back getting 20+ a night because #veteran. Coaches are like people quitting smoking, you need to take all the smokes out of the house, car, and office

Exactly. If he's here, he's going to be overused. It's what happens every time.

 

[Estlin]

Sure that could happen, but there is a way to use him effectively, like you said will Cassidy do it?

Also my scenario involved John Moore going elsewhere. I don't see room for both him and Chara occupying two of D-man spots 5 through 8.

He should help the progression of their young prospects, and Lauzon/Zboril/Clifton (I left out Vaak as he should be in Providence next year not Boston) shouldn't comprise the full-time 3rd pair, just give them chances on B2Bs while they rest Chara.

Couldn't Chara do that from behind the bench or off the ice in some other capacity?

 

[LSCII]

That's a...perfect comparison actually.

I would also like Chara as a limited minutes guy, but over the last couple weeks have come to realize that if he plays then it's almost a guarantee that Cassidy trots him out there for 22 a night. I can't have that.

Exactly. If he's there, and one of the young guys makes a mistake, you can guarantee Chara would be slotted up instead. It's basic human nature, which is why I'd rather not bring him back.

 

[BruinDust]

Couldn't Chara do that from behind the bench or off the ice some other capacity?

Sure he could. But that's not the main reason I'd want him back. It's more like an added bonus. Quite frankly if all he brought was mentoring I wouldn't be interested in him as a player.

 

[Kalus]

For 1 M and used as described I'm in.

I'll be shocked if he signs for $1M after all the Chara is cheap stories we've heard over the years. He managed to squeeze $3.5M out of them for this past season.

 

[Dr Hook]

Sure he could. But that's not the main reason I'd want him back. It's more like an added bonus. Quite frankly if all he brought was mentoring I wouldn't be interested in him as a player.

That's pretty much all he brought in the bubble. He's 43 so I am not sure why anyone expects he will be like he was at the start of last season when he was not great, but decent, and then declined over the course of the season, took that long layoff, and looked atrocious when play resumed.

 

[mjhfb]

Whatever we want, the simple answer is they respect him too much to just drop him if he wants to come back. We've all heard GM's talk years later about how they carried a guy a year longer than they should because of who he was. Are the Bruins going to just cut him if he wants to come back? Perhaps, but I don't see it.
The other thing to remember is there are no guaranteed minutes, if he tails off they just don't play him, and are then still out less money than other paid Bruins that don't play (to remain nameless).

 

[BruinDust]

That's pretty much all he brought in the bubble. He's 43 so I am not sure why anyone expects he will be like he was at the start of last season when he was not great, but decent, and then declined over the course of the season, took that long layoff, and looked atrocious when play resumed.

Honestly I really don't think the play of any player should be harshly evaluated or given much emphasis based on their play in the RTP bubble tournament. These guys are creatures of habit/routine, then combine that with the bubble environment, with no fans to boot. And just 3 "warm up games". Not to say Chara was good (he sure wasn't), but neither were a lot of guys, from many teams.

Like I said earlier, I don't see how he goes from No.1 pair on the league's No.1 defensive team to no longer able to contribute in the NHL in roughly 6 months.

 

[finchster]

The issue I see about the argument of 'blocking' Lauzon/Zboril/Clifton, is that I don't envision any of those defencemen doing what Chara is doing. He is getting almost zero offensive TOI, and that enabled the Bruins to play Krug and to a far lesser extent McAvoy in more offensive situations than they would've otherwise (McAvoy was almost 50/50 last season for zone starts).

Lauzon/Zboril/Clifton will never be able to give you that ever. No matter how much you say, "give the kids a chance", no one with a straight face can claim they can be better defensively.

The question for me is simple, can the Bruins sign Chara to a team-friendly deal? A deal where, if he does fall off a cliff, the Bruins can shed almost all his salary in the minors, then I say re-sign him. That could change depending on which roster moves the Bruins make this offseason.

I don't put any stock into "blocking the kids" arguments at all. That would imply, the Bruins are so deep, legitimate NHL talent is wasting away in the minors (it isn't).

 

[Dr Hook]

Honestly I really don't think the play of any player should be harshly evaluated or given much emphasis based on their play in the RTP bubble tournament. These guys are creatures of habit/routine, then combine that with the bubble environment, with no fans to boot. And just 3 "warm up games". Not to say Chara was good (he sure wasn't), but neither were a lot of guys, from many teams.

Like I said earlier, I don't see how he goes from No.1 pair on the league's No.1 defensive team to no longer able to contribute in the NHL in roughly 6 months.

Point taken on the bubble, but the areas where Chara deteriorated really showed up- no footspeed, turns like an aircraft carrier, an inability to make a clean pass, not even consistent at clearing the puck from the zone. He couldn't even retrieve a puck if it was more than 6 feet from him and Charlie had to go get it. If he wasn't 43, I'd agree with you that we could expect a different player when hockey returns on a more normalized schedule. But it is what it is- all the plant-based diets, exercise, weights, etc. can't reverse the aging process. He's done well to stay relevant as long as he has in a game where players peak between 23 and 27.

As for being a #1 pairing guy last year, I don't agree he was. That was where Cassidy played him, but he was not a first pairing D-man and on any other team he doesn't slot in there. Here he has a legacy and a C on his sweater and is an all-around great person who is well-respected by his colleagues and coaches.

 

[BruinDust]

Point taken on the bubble, but the areas where Chara deteriorated really showed up- no footspeed, turns like an aircraft carrier, an inability to make a clean pass, not even consistent at clearing the puck from the zone. He couldn't even retrieve a puck if it was more than 6 feet from him and Charlie had to go get it. If he wasn't 43, I'd agree with you that we could expect a different player when hockey returns on a more normalized schedule. But it is what it is- all the plant-based diets, exercise, weights, etc. can't reverse the aging process. He's done well to stay relevant as long as he has in a game where players peak between 23 and 27.

As for being a #1 pairing guy last year, I don't agree he was. That was where Cassidy played him, but he was not a first pairing D-man and on any other team he doesn't slot in there. Here he has a legacy and a C on his sweater and is an all-around great person who is well-respected by his colleagues and coaches.

The bolded above was the most concerning thing for me in the RTP.

But he was on the No.1 pair on the best defensive team. Thats not opinion, it's fact, that's is the pair he played on 5 on 5 most of the time. That's not to be confused with "he's a No.1-No.2 D-man" in that conventional sense. But he was on the 1st pair.

I've suggested Brendan Dillon as the UFA LD best suited to come in and take that spot alongside McAvoy for next year. Doesn't make him a No 1/No.2 D-man, but a guy who compliments his partner (McAvoy) the No.1 D on the team. And reality is, a lot of teams don't pair up their best two D-men, it's usually No.1 with a complimentary guy, and No.2 and 3 on a well-rounded 2nd pair. That's what Dallas has right now. Even teams that have had two legit No.1's at the same time don't pair em together.

 

[Dr Hook]

The bolded above was the most concerning thing for me in the RTP.

But he was on the No.1 pair on the best defensive team. Thats not opinion, it's fact, that's is the pair he played on 5 on 5 most of the time. That's not to be confused with "he's a No.1-No.2 D-man" in that conventional sense. But he was on the 1st pair.

I've suggested Brendan Dillon as the UFA LD best suited to come in and take that spot alongside McAvoy for next year. Doesn't make him a No 1/No.2 D-man, but a guy who compliments his partner (McAvoy) the No.1 D on the team. And reality is, a lot of teams don't pair up their best two D-men, it's usually No.1 with a complimentary guy, and No.2 and 3 on a well-rounded 2nd pair. That's what Dallas has right now. Even teams that have had two legit No.1's at the same time don't pair em together.

Fair enough, he did play there, and I thought Charlie's game was the worse for it and as the season went on, it was looking less and less like a good idea to keep him up there. I just have enough doubts that he can get enough of his game back at his age to be even worth having on a 3rd pair with limited minutes (not to mention the larger concern about Cassidy overplaying him)

But whether we agree on whether he should be back or not, you are right about someone like Dillon being a good add. I thought Edmundson would be a good fit in that way but he buggered off to the Habs. A steady, defensively sound guy who generally responsible in his decision making, can keep up with the play. Let McAvoy loose a bit, give Gryz to Carlo and let him loose a bit as well (hard for Matty to play his full game when having to watch over Clifton or Lauzon as rookies). That leaves a nice 3rd pairing where you can have the veteran John Moore when needed, and whichever young LD earns the spot. Lauzon can go on the right side of that pair also.

 

[BruinDust]

Fair enough, he did play there, and I thought Charlie's game was the worse for it and as the season went on, it was looking less and less like a good idea to keep him up there. I just have enough doubts that he can get enough of his game back at his age to be even worth having on a 3rd pair with limited minutes (not to mention the larger concern about Cassidy overplaying him)

But whether we agree on whether he should be back or not, you are right about someone like Dillon being a good add. I thought Edmundson would be a good fit in that way but he buggered off to the Habs. A steady, defensively sound guy who generally responsible in his decision making, can keep up with the play. Let McAvoy loose a bit, give Gryz to Carlo and let him loose a bit as well (hard for Matty to play his full game when having to watch over Clifton or Lauzon as rookies). That leaves a nice 3rd pairing where you can have the veteran John Moore when needed, and whichever young LD earns the spot. Lauzon can go on the right side of that pair also.

Edmundson was the other guy I was considering before he went to Poutineville.

 

[BMC]

It always frustrates me when I read people complaining about how the older guys "block" the younger guys out of the line up.
It is up to the younger guys to beat out the older guys for a spot on the team, not for the older guys to step aside & give the spots to the kids.
And remember no coach is going to put a kid in the lineup (unless he's Ray Bourque or Patrice Bergeron) over a veteran for the simple reason is he knows the strengths & weaknesses of his veterans far better than those of the youngsters. He doesn't have time to find out either because his job is to win games now. Cases in point- Steve Kampfer & John Moore. Everybody bitches about their shortcomings but Cassidy knows their strengths. He knows what he can trust them to do and what not to do, that's why he almost always plays them over youngsters like Lauzon & Vaak.

 

[LSCII]

It always frustrates me when I read people complaining about how the older guys "block" the younger guys out of the line up.
It is up to the younger guys to beat out the older guys for a spot on the team, not for the older guys to step aside & give the spots to the kids.
And remember no coach is going to put a kid in the lineup (unless he's Ray Bourque or Patrice Bergeron) over a veteran for the simple reason is he knows the strengths & weaknesses of his veterans far better than those of the youngsters. He doesn't have time to find out either because his job is to win games now. Cases in point- Steve Kampfer & John Moore. Everybody bitches about their shortcomings but Cassidy knows their strengths. He knows what he can trust them to do and what not to do, that's why he almost always plays them over youngsters like Lauzon & Vaak.

If the player in question was under contract, I can see your point. But to go out and resign him adds a layer to this debate/discussion, IMO. If they do bring him back, I take that as an indictment on what they think the young guys in the system really are.

 

[JOKER 192]

I'll be shocked if he signs for $1M after all the Chara is cheap stories we've heard over the years. He managed to squeeze $3.5M out of them for this past season.

Ya, I'd be shocked as well but in that case he can walk IMO.

And I'm sure he can het more elsewhere too

 

[Dr Hook]

It always frustrates me when I read people complaining about how the older guys "block" the younger guys out of the line up.
It is up to the younger guys to beat out the older guys for a spot on the team, not for the older guys to step aside & give the spots to the kids.
And remember no coach is going to put a kid in the lineup (unless he's Ray Bourque or Patrice Bergeron) over a veteran for the simple reason is he knows the strengths & weaknesses of his veterans far better than those of the youngsters. He doesn't have time to find out either because his job is to win games now. Cases in point- Steve Kampfer & John Moore. Everybody bitches about their shortcomings but Cassidy knows their strengths. He knows what he can trust them to do and what not to do, that's why he almost always plays them over youngsters like Lauzon & Vaak.

If only the playing field was level, you might have a point. But as you say, coaches have to win now, so better the devil they know than one they don't. The only problem with this is how the hell are these young guys who are not teen phenoms like Bourque and Bergeron supposed to develop to where they can beat out the older guy? Not by going to camp for a couple of weeks, or by sitting in the press box, or getting benched when they make a mistake.