Zac Rinaldo (2013-14 season) -- Update Apr. 7, 2014: Suspended four games

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

Either that one, or the 5-0 shutout of Detroit where neither he nor Rosehill played and actually got to ice a full roster of NHL players.

You mean when we played their farm team? That wasn't the wings and you know it. Nice try tho and I never mentioned Rosehill. You seriously need your toe picks removed if you want to be a Flyers fan.

 

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

And Gaborik was going to get hurt anyways. It's not like it's a rare thing to knock him out for a large chunk of time.

Maybe, but Rinaldo knocked him out so that's what I'll go with. Rather than just bashing on an assumption.

 

[Curufinwe]

Maybe if we finish 2 points ahead of Columbus for the last playoff spot his hit on Gaborik won't mean anything either.

How about all the points he cost us with dumb penalties and poor defensive play?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Maybe, but Rinaldo knocked him out so that's what I'll go with. Rather than just bashing on an assumption.

There's also the fact that if we miss the playoffs, we can look back at the games where we had Rinaldo playing as the worst regular forward in the league and wonder if things would have gone different without him neutering a line.

 

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

How about all the points he cost us with dumb penalties and poor defensive play?

Unless you can show me a set of Appleyard's stats that can show me he costs us games in that regard, you're blowing smoke out of your ass. Not like Hartnell's never outright cost us games either. Why do non-physical hockey fans even cheer doe the Flyers? I spoke to an asst coach of another Eastern team this past Summer, and he is of the belief that his whole team hates facing Zac because he hits to hurt. Can't understand how some fans can't see it.

 

[flyershockey]

Unless you can show me a set of Appleyard's stats that can show me he costs us games in that regard, you're blowing smoke out of your ass. Not like Hartnell's never outright cost us games either. Why do non-physical hockey fans even cheer doe the Flyers? I spoke to an asst coach of another Eastern team this past Summer, and he is of the belief that his whole team hates facing Zac because he hits to hurt. Can't understand how some fans can't see it.

So I can't be a fan of the team because I'm not a fan of a fringe player? I love physical hockey. I also like teams that win hockey games. Rinaldo doesn't do a whole lot to help that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unless you can show me a set of Appleyard's stats that can show me he costs us games in that regard, you're blowing smoke out of your ass. Not like Hartnell's never outright cost us games either. Why do non-physical hockey fans even cheer doe the Flyers? I spoke to an asst coach of another Eastern team this past Summer, and he is of the belief that his whole team hates facing Zac because he hits to hurt. Can't understand how some fans can't see it.

I'm pretty sure there are some extensive stats earlier in this very thread (if not here, then elsewhere in the forum) that show he was the worst regular NHL forward up until he got injured. His defensive play, combined with the rate he took penalties, and the way the team just didn't produce when he was on the ice, all combined to be something very detrimental.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Unless you can show me a set of Appleyard's stats that can show me he costs us games in that regard, you're blowing smoke out of your a@#. Not like Hartnell's never outright cost us games either. Why do non-physical hockey fans even cheer doe the Flyers? I spoke to an asst coach of another Eastern team this past Summer, and he is of the belief that his whole team hates facing Zac because he hits to hurt. Can't understand how some fans can't see it.

I like physical players. I don't like useless players.

 

[sa cyred]

Unless you can show me a set of Appleyard's stats that can show me he costs us games in that regard, you're blowing smoke out of your a@#. Not like Hartnell's never outright cost us games either. Why do non-physical hockey fans even cheer doe the Flyers? I spoke to an asst coach of another Eastern team this past Summer, and he is of the belief that his whole team hates facing Zac because he hits to hurt. Can't understand how some fans can't see it.

I'm pretty sure if Apple or someone else did show he is one of the worse regular NHLers in the league, advanced stats wise, you would just go back to he hits hard.

What do you mean why do we cheer for the Flyers? Dont know why some some fans stuck in the old hockey days still watch hockey. Now is that fair?

 

[sa cyred]

I like physical players. I don't like useless players.

You know you are not the best hockey player when the only thing you bring to the team is hitting hard. Like no scoring, pking, even two=way play. Rinaldo has average skating also and isnt even THAT fast. He isnt slow but isnt fast. Like seriously...what does he bring other than this fake intimidation thing that some fans seem to think is a huge contribution to the team?

 

[Totally Radivojevic]

I love the notion that Zac Rinaldo is neutering the 4th line. Real hockey player Adam Hall, in the past 6 years of 5 on 5 hockey, has a points per 60 of 0.81. Out of 640 forwards who have played at least 500 minutes in that time period, Real hockey player Adam Hall ranks 593rd. Not only is he below Rinaldo, but Jody Shelley sits just above him as well. Darroll Powe and Blair Betts, 2 fan favorites around here and fellow real hockey players, sit in 563rd and 577th place.. both below Rinaldo.

Penalty kill talk in 3,2,1....

 

[Beef Invictus]

I love the notion that Zac Rinaldo is neutering the 4th line. Real hockey player Adam Hall, in the past 6 years of 5 on 5 hockey, has a points per 60 of 0.81. Out of 640 forwards who have played at least 500 minutes in that time period, Real hockey player Adam Hall ranks 593rd. Not only is he below Rinaldo, but Jody Shelley sits just above him as well. Darroll Powe and Blair Betts, 2 fan favorites around here and fellow real hockey players, sit in 563rd and 577th place.. both below Rinaldo.

Penalty kill talk in 3,2,1....

The team actually produces at a higher rate with Hall on the ice than Rinaldo. In fact, Rinaldo is the team's least productive player, while facing the easiest competition. So yeah, he's actually holding the 4th line back.

Rinaldo hasn't really done anything well this year. Hall can at least win faceoffs and kill penalties.

Rinaldo hits...and he's even doing a lot less of that so far this year, netting 3.2 hits per game this year compared to 4.5 hits per game last year. Beyond the math, the simple eyeball test shows he's been less physical this year.

So...he's absolutely awful offensively, worst on the team by a good margin...he's damned bad defensively...he can't do anything on special teams well...he takes a huge amount of penalties while not drawing as many...and hes doing less of the one thing he's good at.

The players you listed were all good at things that can have a consistent impact on games. Rinaldo does what, exactly?

 

[Appleyard]

I love the notion that Zac Rinaldo is neutering the 4th line. Real hockey player Adam Hall, in the past 6 years of 5 on 5 hockey, has a points per 60 of 0.81. Out of 640 forwards who have played at least 500 minutes in that time period, Real hockey player Adam Hall ranks 593rd. Not only is he below Rinaldo, but Jody Shelley sits just above him as well. Darroll Powe and Blair Betts, 2 fan favorites around here and fellow real hockey players, sit in 563rd and 577th place.. both below Rinaldo.

Penalty kill talk in 3,2,1....

Adam Hall thrice had more goals in 6 weeks than Zac Rinaldo has had in his whole NHL career... Adam Hall has scored 3 game winning playoff goals, Adam Hall has had 15 multiple point games in the NHL, Adam Hall has more playoff goals than Rinaldo has career goals.

Adam Hall has seen a lot of players come and go from the NHL over 13 year career... and a lot of those players were far better than Zac Rinaldo.

I know it was a long time ago... but Adam Hall is still twice the hockey player Zac Rinaldo is, and better at pretty much every aspect of hockey apart from hitting...

Halls minutes are far harder than Rinaldos; they may play 'together' but Rinaldo is kept off the ice in most of the harder situations... hence the ~20% difference in zone starts this year and last year.

Yet Hall:

still produces at a higher rate per 60, (1.35 vs 0.90)

while driving the play better, (+21.9... Rinaldo -0.6)

being better defensively

and being one of the best faceoff men in the league

and having top 10 PK minutes in the NHL... on a top 10 unit.

If Rinaldo can play like he did last year, being an agitator without being stupid, hitting and not being too big a liability he has a place in the NHL... albeit as likely a 13th forward, but if he plays like he did before being injured this year... lookout AHL.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

the hate from some of Rinaldo is laffable..

the guy is a NHL player and serves a important role, one in which he excels.

all you arm chair GMs are hilarous... if Rinaldo truely brought nothing to the team why do you think hes still here ???

do you guys all seriously think the GM and down are clueless ???

keep dreaming..

 

[sa cyred]

I love the notion that Zac Rinaldo is neutering the 4th line. Real hockey player Adam Hall, in the past 6 years of 5 on 5 hockey, has a points per 60 of 0.81. Out of 640 forwards who have played at least 500 minutes in that time period, Real hockey player Adam Hall ranks 593rd. Not only is he below Rinaldo, but Jody Shelley sits just above him as well. Darroll Powe and Blair Betts, 2 fan favorites around here and fellow real hockey players, sit in 563rd and 577th place.. both below Rinaldo.

Penalty kill talk in 3,2,1....

Oh so the pk is useless? What about faceoffs? How about overall defensive play? I guess they are useless unlike hitting though!


By the way, your argument became invalid when you added Shelly in there and said he was above Hall (as if it was a positive)

 

[sa cyred]

the hate from some of Rinaldo is laffable..

the guy is a NHL player and serves a important role, one in which he excels.

all you arm chair GMs are hilarous... if Rinaldo truely brought nothing to the team why do you think hes still here ???

do you guys all seriously think the GM and down are clueless ???

keep dreaming..

The "coach and GM are infallible" thing is not the best argument. What is this important role? Hitting? Maybe this "he scares the other teams players" arguement?

There is a reason why these players are getting weeded out and dieing. It's because they are so one dimensional in a category that you can not be to survive the NHL. The good teams are deploying players that can not only hit, but do other things like win faceoffs, play just above average defense and even pk. You know when they say you can not win without the background players? This is 100% true if your background players can lessen the load of the top players. Playing the PK, winning faceoffs, forchecking RIGHT (aka not just going in and slamming the guy. Forechecking is actually a tactical placement), maybe even being part of your team's shutdown line. Just going around hitting people, committing a ton of penalties, is NOT helping this team. I know alot of people that like Zac because he hits hard. There are still some fans that enjoy the fighting/goony type of stuff, but we got to think of the team here. Zac is getting called for tons of penalties right and wrong. He only hits people hard. He doesnt contribute to this team other than filling in ice time. And even then that can be bad since he causes us to go on the pk alot.

 

[Totally Radivojevic]

Adam Hall thrice had more goals in 6 weeks than Zac Rinaldo has had in his whole NHL career... Adam Hall has scored 3 game winning playoff goals, Adam Hall has had 15 multiple point games in the NHL, Adam Hall has more playoff goals than Rinaldo has career goals.

Adam Hall has seen a lot of players come and go from the NHL over 13 year career... and a lot of those players were far better than Zac Rinaldo.

I know it was a long time ago... but Adam Hall is still twice the hockey player Zac Rinaldo is, and better at pretty much every aspect of hockey apart from hitting...

Halls minutes are far harder than Rinaldos; they may play 'together' but Rinaldo is kept off the ice in most of the harder situations... hence the ~20% difference in zone starts this year and last year.

Yet Hall:

still produces at a higher rate per 60, (1.35 vs 0.90)

while driving the play better, (+21.9... Rinaldo -0.6)

being better defensively

and being one of the best faceoff men in the league

and having top 10 PK minutes in the NHL... on a top 10 unit.

If Rinaldo can play like he did last year, being an agitator without being stupid, hitting and not being too big a liability he has a place in the NHL... albeit as likely a 13th forward, but if he plays like he did before being injured this year... lookout AHL.

Adam Hall has 50 points in his last 353 regular season hockey games, .14 points per game. Averaged out over a single season, that's 11.6 points.

I didn't bring up penalty killing because I was addressing the notion that Zac Rinaldo is the whole reason the 4th line doesn't produce. Hall can win faceoffs and he plays the PK. He stinks at even strength. For being a defensive forward, I'd expect a little better than a career -73.

 

[FlyingPhilly]

What happened here in this thread?

I think Rinaldo is the worst forward on the team after Rosehill. He is a great skater though with no puck skills to speak of and not good defensively. Too bad the other skill(s) he has (hitting) do not really contribute anything.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Adam Hall has 50 points in his last 353 regular season hockey games, .14 points per game. Averaged out over a single season, that's 11.6 points.

I didn't bring up penalty killing because I was addressing the notion that Zac Rinaldo is the whole reason the 4th line doesn't produce. Hall can win faceoffs and he plays the PK. He stinks at even strength. For being a defensive forward, I'd expect a little better than a career -73.

That's better than Rinaldo. Rinaldo's pacing for a worse +/- on his career against easy competition, too.

 

[Appleyard]

Adam Hall has 50 points in his last 353 regular season hockey games, .14 points per game. Averaged out over a single season, that's 11.6 points.

I didn't bring up penalty killing because I was addressing the notion that Zac Rinaldo is the whole reason the 4th line doesn't produce. Hall can win faceoffs and he plays the PK. He stinks at even strength. For being a defensive forward, I'd expect a little better than a career -73.

And Rinaldo averages 8.9 points a season...

-73 over his career is -0.11 a game.

Rinaldo over his is -0.13 a game... and has played on average half as many minutes as Hall per game.

So if Hall stinks... Rinaldo stinks more!

And Malhotra, Jay McClement, Craig Adams, Boyd Gordon, Eric Nystrom, Jerred Smithson, Jeff Halpern, Cal Clutterbuck, Brian Boyle, Bergenheim, Greg Campbell, Kobasew, Marcel Goc, Dominic Moore and Horcoff are all minuses over their career, some very heavily. It comes with the territory for the most part... if you are starting in your own zone 70% of your career (in a long career) - is quite inevitable.

 

[Totally Radivojevic]

And Rinaldo averages 8.9 points a season...

-73 over his career is -0.11 a game.

Rinaldo over his is -0.13 a game... and has played on average half as many minutes as Hall per game.

So if Hall stinks... Rinaldo stinks more!

And Malhotra, Jay McClement, Craig Adams, Boyd Gordon, Eric Nystrom, Jerred Smithson, Jeff Halpern, Cal Clutterbuck, Brian Boyle, Bergenheim, Greg Campbell, Kobasew, Marcel Goc, Dominic Moore and Horcoff are all minuses over their career, some very heavily. It comes with the territory for the most part... if you are starting in your own zone 70% of your career (in a long career) - is quite inevitable.

So two guys with comparable numbers... one is HF's golden child and the other couldn't be hated more. My post was strictly to show that Hall is not much different than Rinaldo as far as even strength productivity yet he takes the full blame for any 4th line problems.

Rinaldo will never produce a lot of points. I'm well aware of that. I like him because he's entertaining and I think the team feeds off his energy when he's at his best.

 

[Totally Radivojevic]

Oh so the pk is useless? What about faceoffs? How about overall defensive play? I guess they are useless unlike hitting though!


By the way, your argument became invalid when you added Shelly in there and said he was above Hall (as if it was a positive)

What? My statistic is invalid because Jody Shelley ranked higher than Adam Hall? That was not a Jody Shelley endorsement, I just wanted to drive home how low Hall actually was.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Since when is Hall a golden child?

Hall isn't actively a detriment to the team. Rinaldo is. That's the chief difference between the two. One contributes in some ways. The other contributes practically nothing. The difference between guys like Betts and Hall and Rinaldo is that Hall and Betts can fill their role reliably without damaging the team. They may not produce, but they make up for that in other ways. Not only does Rinaldo not produce, he's also bad defensively, can't be relied on to PK, and puts the team down a man an alarming amount. The other two don't do that.

 

[Totally Radivojevic]

Since when is Hall a golden child?

Hall isn't actively a detriment to the team. Rinaldo is. That's the chief difference between the two. One contributes in some ways. The other contributes practically nothing.

He gets praised a ton on here. I'm pretty sure I've never heard one negative comment about him on this site. We got him off the trash heap for a reason.

 

[sa cyred]

He gets praised a ton on here. I'm pretty sure I've never heard one negative comment about him on this site. We got him off the trash heap for a reason.

Hard to fault on a guy who does a lot. Plays a ton of pk. Wins a TON of faceoffs. Plays against really good opponents.

Thats why alot of us like him. He plays the 4th line, goes out and contributes greatly for the team and doesnt put the team behind any 8 ball. We got Rinaldo who gives the other team powerplay and Hall who makes sure they dont score on the powerplay. I do think it's pretty easy to see why people like Hall more... Alot of us who arent infatuated with purely hard hitters can see why Hall is liked more.