Yzerman is telling you his philosophy if you listen!

[RedHawkDown]

And this is a falsehood. Of course you have to give up significant assets to get a good player, unless they become a complete surprise.

It's not a cop out. I'm giving the larger context of the situation. It's not like I'm saying Holl was a great signing. Yzerman has obviously been bad on some of his moves.

It's notable that you're going back 4 and 5 years for some of those examples and others are waiver-wire claims the Wings didn't have the opportunity to select.

why do we have pro scouts then? If selecting undervalued players for low cost is just based on luck, then why does any team have pro scouts?

you dont have to give up significant assets to get a good player if you have competent pro scouting, and espeically if you have fantastic pro scouting. several other teams have this. that's what seperates middling teams from teams that develop into contenders.

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

I'm not sure where you guys are reading this. I never said this. All I'm saying is that our prospects do not easily clear theirs, i.e. it's relatively even between us and them. CBJ too. In order to be better than those teams, we have to do better than just stay even.

Yes, and it f***ing sucks that we couldn't have bottomed out sooner and picked between 1-3 at least ONE time since the rebuild "started" (I'm counting 2017). It would be great to have a Hischier/J. Hughes/Fantilli/Dahlin/Stutzle on our roster.

But with the hand he was dealt, Steve has done a great job drafting. So far his first three 1st rounders are regular NHLers and budding superstars. Cossa is a blue chip goalie prospect. Kasper is playing a top 6 role as a 20 year old. ASP might be the most exciting prospect the Wings have had in I don't even know how long. So I have no reason to start questioning his decision making when we improved and started drafting outside the top 10.

If Nate and MBN can come in and score 40-50 points off the jump, I'm ecstatic. From watching both of them, I see those point totals as their absolute floor. They're likely not going to be point per game guys, and that's okay. I don't see many dudes taken after each of them in their draft years that will be.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Yes, and it f***ing sucks that we couldn't have bottomed out sooner and picked between 1-3 at least ONE time since the rebuild "started" (I'm counting 2017). It would be great to have a Hischier/J. Hughes/Fantilli/Dahlin/Stutzle on our roster.

But with the hand he was dealt, Steve has done a great job drafting. So far his first three 1st rounders are regular NHLers and budding superstars. Cossa is a blue chip goalie prospect. Kasper is playing a top 6 role as a 20 year old. ASP might be the most exciting prospect the Wings have had in I don't even know how long. So I have no reason to start questioning his decision making when we improved and started drafting outside the top 10.

If Nate and MBN can come in and score 40-50 points off the jump, I'm ecstatic. From watching both of them, I see those point totals as their absolute floor. They're likely not going to be point per game guys, and that's okay. I don't see many dudes taken after each of them in their draft years that will be.

I completely agree that he has drafted well. All I'm saying is that that's not enough to build a good team and it's certainly not enough to be crowned a great GM.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

why do we have pro scouts then? If selecting undervalued players for low cost is just based on luck, then why does any team have pro scouts?

you dont have to give up significant assets to get a good player if you have competent pro scouting, and espeically if you have fantastic pro scouting. several other teams have this. that's what seperates middling teams from teams that develop into contenders.

I never said it was just based on luck.

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

I completely agree that he has drafted well. All I'm saying is that that's not enough to build a good team and it's certainly not enough to be crowned a great GM.

Of course. But I'd say great drafting is the most important part of being a great gm. He's preached patience since day one, and clearly he has a plan for every player he has drafted in the first round, and wants to see what they become before trading them or futures for bandaids.

As someone said before, I expect this summer to be a fun one. Because it feels like we're officially on the doorstep of being a perennial contender. Maybe it's making a huge splash signing Marner? Or trading for a defenseman? Either way, I trust Steve still.

 

[Retire91]

Yzerman has not begun the later stages of building the team. Outside of Debrincat who kind of fell in our lap due to personal relationships we haven't even signed a core team member. Although Kane can be high caliber he is still a stop gap and not part of the core. The comparison's are unfair, Yzerman has not put emphasis on spending draft and prospect capitol to bring in free agents. He has provided public language to confirm this numerous times. Yzerman is a very active GM when it comes to signing and trading just look at his history with tampa. comparing him to other organizations is a disservice when he has not entered that mode yet, When Yzerman starts doing the sweeping organization trades and signings that is when you will be able to compare. None of those teams discussed started from how bottomed out we are. It's unfortunate that the streak meant so much to Mr. Illich but it was his prerogative and he drove this team past its expiration date by 5-6 years delaying the rebuild into one of the biggest dumpsterfires modern hockey has ever seen. As a result you are watching the hockey you have today because we have a patient GM who understands the timing of the situation.

This is not an indefinite blank check for Yzerman to do nothing. It's just a pragmatic analysis of his actions in the context of what he has publicly communicated over and over. If he doesn't move into acquisition mode in the next season or two honestly I would be genuinely shocked.

 

[Retire91]

I completely agree that he has drafted well. All I'm saying is that that's not enough to build a good team and it's certainly not enough to be crowned a great GM.

Sorry I reacted to the delusional comment as my wounded child self that I am working on. I was venting and didn't mean to make it personal. I can totally relate to the worry that even though we are drafting NHL serviceable players that may still be outpaced by other organizations. That is a real and genuine thing.

I hold to my own personal read on this situation. Yzerman has another gear as a GM that he has not shown yet in his Red Wings tenure because I think he wanted to take the 5-10 years to collect the franchise faces of the new org through the draft. Like if he stated this way in Tampa he would have done the same thing to get a stamkos and headmen in place first. When Yzerman feels it's turned the corner I anticipate he will be aggressive and bring in some huge wins on trade and signings. I'll keep the faith and recognize that it's not my job to be a gatekeeper for how other's feel.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Sorry I reacted to the delusional comment as my wounded child self that I am working on. I was venting and didn't mean to make it personal. I can totally relate to the worry that even though we are drafting NHL serviceable players that may still be outpaced by other organizations. That is a real and genuine thing.

I hold to my own personal read on this situation. Yzerman has another gear as a GM that he has not shown yet in his Red Wings tenure because I think he wanted to take the 5-10 years to collect the franchise faces of the new org through the draft. Like if he stated this way in Tampa he would have done the same thing to get a stamkos and headmen in place first. When Yzerman feels it's turned the corner I anticipate he will be aggressive and bring in some huge wins on trade and signings. I'll keep the faith and recognize that it's not my job to be a gatekeeper for how other's feel.

This may be the most well adjusted post I've ever read on hfboards. Much respect.

 

[Oddbob]

You went off a lot in here but didn't address anything I said. I'm talking about our prospects compared to our competition (CBJ, OTT, MTL, to a lesser extent BUF, NJD,PHI). Everything you said has nothing to do with that.

"Give the guy a chance" He's been given many chances. He's on year 6 of his own tenure without playoffs, going on 9 years total; it's one of the longest droughts in all of pro sports FYI (tied for 4th). You can be happy accepting abject failure, I'm not.

There are many teams around the league who started worse off than us and have already lapped us because of a combination of good drafting, good trades, and good to great waiver/FA pickups. Many of these did it without a top 2-3 pick, or only 1 top 2-3 pick. Fact.

I don't care if he publicly said he's not ready to pull the trigger - am I supposed to excuse his incompetence because he publicly admits it?

Here's what our direct competitors in the East are doing, just so you're aware:
Montreal has Demidov coming who is likely a future Kucherov. Hage who looks every bit as good as Danielson. Fowler and Dobes who are close to Cossa and Augustine.

Philly will see continued massive growth from Michkov. Luchanko coming who looks solid. Another top 10 pick this year.

OTT has Yakemchuk and just added Zetterlund and Cozens, both of whom have significant untapped potential.

CBJ has seen massive growth from Marchenko and Voronkov, and Johnson is now a PPG player. They've got Mateychuk with big potential, plus Cayden Lindstrom coming, Fantilli poised to break out into a PPG+ player. Luca DB Belluz who looks like a very good player and had a fantastic stint in the NHL this year, and is at least at a Danielson level of prospect at this point. Then there's Jordan Dumais too.

Then there's teams like NJ that will continue to get better with Silayev and Casey stepping onto the team. Washington with Leonard, I. Protas, and Miro on the way after Ovechkin retires.

Danielson, ASP, Cossa, Buchelnikov, and MBN are all fantastic pieces. If you think they're much better than the above and will, by themselves, propel us past these teams, then yes, you are delusional.

For what seems like the 1000th time, it is not enough to get better. You have to get better relative to other teams.

You lose me when you bring up Zetterlund. Almost 26 year old Zetterlund has significant untapped potential? I don't think so! How many already in the NHL 26 year olds all of sudden break out? Not that many. He is what he is at this point.

 

[Oddbob]

I didn't say that at all. I'm saying these teams all have just as much going for them as we do. These teams (namely OTT/CBJ/NJD/WSH) are also currently better than us. Therefore, in order for us to have any chance of passing them, we have to look beyond prospects, becuase these other teams also all have great prosepcts and young players. That's my point. Say its EA NHL and we're 80 OVR, OTT 82 OVR, CBJ 83 OVR. If we all add +4, they're still ahead of us and we're still out of the playoffs. That's my point.

Over and over on this board people keep repeating that the kids will make this team great again without realizing that other teams also all have great kids, and unless you're talking about a Matthews/McDavid/Marner/MacKinnon/Drai etc level talent, prospects alone will not put you over the top. They'll keep you afloat, but you need more than that to actually take the next step.

Wsh doesn't really count. When Ovechkin is done, they are done. They have complimentary second tier players aside from only a couple good youngsters. The rest of the team is nothing special. They also aren't in the rebuild category. In 2 seasons they will be in sell off mode or middling territory.

 

[Oddbob]

This is a very standard copout. You don't need to just restrict it to NMC trades and UFAs. Fabbro in CBJ, Zetterlund in OTT, Toews in COL, Forsling in FLA; many teams have found ways to get fantastic value through either waiver wire pickups or low-cost trades identifying underutilized players. Yzerman has completely failed at that, and it doesn't require mortgaging the future or giving up significant assets.

What is so good about Zetterlund? 44 pts as a career high and Ottawa is playing him 10 minutes a night 2 games into his stint there. He is Compher level at best, and I don't even think as good. Also, you wanted Yzerman to add Fabbro for what he went for, I don't.

I am disappointed in the current outlook as well, but these two moves are not moves I wanted and Zetterlund is a a major nothing burger. Finding a Toews like Colorado did also requires tremendous luck and is very hard to duplicate. You can take chances 100 times and very few times get gems like that.