Yzerman End of Season pressconference

[heyfolks]

I don't think Yzerman was arrogant in his PC, he was very defensive. He didn't want to answer Walman question and question on his job security, which is fair enough, since especially second one was very dumb. He just does not care enough about media and "national" media is puzzled how somebody who they perceive being on hot seat does want to get some positive publicity (which i don't think matters anyway).

That is the perception, or reality, of his behavior. As the GM he is the face of the team. He held a post season press conference and didn't want to talk about how this team didn't make the post season, AGAIN. He does not want to address how he paid the worst team in the League a 2nd round pick to take Walman and said bottom dweller turned around and traded that player for a first round pick. While not a highly visible deal (with players) this has to be one of the worst moves by a team this season.

The Sharks gained a 1st and 2nd for Walman.

The speculation is 1) player attitude and 2) cap space clearance. If the latter, simply waive the guy (at least as a first effort).

Jake Walman Trade To Oilers Leaves Red Wings Fans Flabbergasted

It’s Trade Deadline Day.

thehockeynews.com

What I've learned, if anything, about the Jake Walman trade

Two days after the deal we are still trying to figure out exactly what happened.

www.shapshotshockey.com

 

[SCD]

Why do people think Yzerman needs to explain his reasoning for his decisions?

 

[Pavels Dog]

The speculation is 1) player attitude and 2) cap space clearance. If the latter, simply waive the guy (at least as a first effort).

Everything points towards 1) but it seems some people are unwilling to accept that it's the most likely reason.

That being the case perfectly lines up with an unwillingness to discuss the topic because what is there to say? Publically throwing Walman under the bus to make himself look better for doing that trade?

 

[jkutswings]

Why do people think Yzerman needs to explain his reasoning for his decisions?

Because it looks dumb to pay another team to take a player you no longer want (without just waiving him first) and then not managing to do anything with the created cap space.

It's plausible that Yzerman felt urgency to dump Walman's salary ASAP to land Trouba. But that just begs additional questions about losing assets to bring in yet another overpaid mediocre veteran. (I'm very glad that trade didn't end up happening.)

Is it worth continuing to dissect further? No, water under the bridge. But it was a very poorly handled situation at the time.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

MAZE END OF SEASON PRESSER

What was his injury and does he need surgery? Was this a one time thing or he had this injury before?

 

[opivy]

Why do people think Yzerman needs to explain his reasoning for his decisions?

When you buy a jersey you are basically a 97% shareholder.

 

[heyfolks]

Everything points towards 1) but it seems some people are unwilling to accept that it's the most likely reason.

That being the case perfectly lines up with an unwillingness to discuss the topic because what is there to say? Publically throwing Walman under the bus to make himself look better for doing that trade?

• That doesn't answer the just waive him as step 1 question.

• If it is attitude, it doesn't explain how he went from a player you have to pay someone to take, to one that rewards the team moving him. It actually makes Yzerman look worse (thus the discussion).

• I was/am leaning to the urgency to move him for Trouba deal that fell through. Yzerman would protect the other GMs over taking slings and arrows for a player with a bad attitude.

 

[heyfolks]

MAZE END OF SEASON PRESSER

I felt horrible for this guy. What a terrible first game fate. That said, he should spend the off season with Ekblad. While I can't say it will help heal whatever ails his body, he will add muscle and related strength.

 

[Oddbob]

• That doesn't answer the just waive him as step 1 question.

• If it is attitude, it doesn't explain how he went from a player you have to pay someone to take, to one that rewards the team moving him. It actually makes Yzerman look worse (thus the discussion).

• I was/am leaning to the urgency to move him for Trouba deal that fell through. Yzerman would protect the other GMs over taking slings and arrows for a player with a bad attitude.

What do you want him to say about it, that doesn't throw Walman under the bus and doesn't mention private stuff between the two? He wasn't moved for cap reasons, as that could have been done for at least a 4th round pick coming our way. Everyone already knows that Yzerman doesn't discuss personal conversations with players or management. Same reason he doesn't mention what he said to Dylan Larkin. Players respect a GM who keeps things behind the scenes, which is likely all Steve is doing. He isn't trying to vaguely hold on to shit just to piss off the media and fans.

Teams don't have to be cap complaint on July 1st, so it isn't cap related. Steve would have had all summer to make another move if that was the case.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

What do you want him to say about it, that doesn't throw Walman under the bus and doesn't mention private stuff between the two? He wasn't moved for cap reasons, as that could have been done for at least a 4th round pick coming our way. Everyone already knows that Yzerman doesn't discuss personal conversations with players or management. Same reason he doesn't mention what he said to Dylan Larkin. Players respect a GM who keeps things behind the scenes, which is likely all Steve is doing. He isn't trying to vaguely hold on to shit just to piss off the media and fans.

Teams don't have to be cap complaint on July 1st, so it isn't cap related. Steve would have had all summer to make another move if that was the case.

Well said.

We'll likely never know what happened between Walman and the Wings. I'm mostly giving Yzerman the benefit of the doubt here, but man it better have been egregious because losing Walman for nothing definitely hurt the team.

 

[dj4aces]

Why do people think Yzerman needs to explain his reasoning for his decisions?

Simply put? Entitlement. They don't care that a GM would never be able to sign any player on any team ever again if they aired even something that seemed like it might maybe possibly be anything remotely resembling dirty laundry. All they care about is a trade looks bad.

 

[lidstromiscool]

Simply put? Entitlement. They don't care that a GM would never be able to sign any player on any team ever again if they aired even something that seemed like it might maybe possibly be anything remotely resembling dirty laundry. All they care about is a trade looks bad.

It's not entitlement, it's accountability. The grace period for Yzerman is well over by now. He is nearing the hot seat, and the Walman trade fiasco is looking worse by the day. If Yzerman deemed it was detrimental to have Walman on the team(originally it was his salary) he needs to change his priorities because one of the best teams in the league traded a first round pick for him. It's hard to trust the Yzerplan right now. If he wasn't a Detroit legend, everyone would be calling for his removal

 

[Pavels Dog]

• That doesn't answer the just waive him as step 1 question.

• If it is attitude, it doesn't explain how he went from a player you have to pay someone to take, to one that rewards the team moving him. It actually makes Yzerman look worse (thus the discussion).

• I was/am leaning to the urgency to move him for Trouba deal that fell through. Yzerman would protect the other GMs over taking slings and arrows for a player with a bad attitude.

If you just want a guy gone ASAP and view the 2nd round pick as "free" from the Gibson trade (which we can disagree on), it does make sense to just make the move rather than extend the process.

Also sends a stronger message to the player and the rest of the team, again though it's impossible to know if that's part of the equation or not.

 

[Snuggs]

Why do people think Yzerman needs to explain his reasoning for his decisions?

Yeah, there isn't much to say now. Lots of people with a brain said wtf right when it happened. If you wanted to dump him, waiving the guy would have been the easiest vs what Yzerman/staff did. It was the offseason too so cap wasn't a HUGE deal.

It's one of the stupidest, worst trades in the last idk, 5 years? Likely topped Holland Quincey trade moves.

What do people expect Yzerman to say? Anyone that's played hockey in a locker-room knew right away it was a player attitude thing; idk if that was with Coaches, other players in the room, whatever, but someone within didn't jell with Walman and it must have been Walman's, 'fault'. Dealing our problem child off for value though doesn't mean Yzerman/Staff did the right thing.

I'm with you when it's like... what do you guys actually expect Yzerman to say. He screwed up.

 

[dj4aces]

It's not entitlement, it's accountability. The grace period for Yzerman is well over by now. He is nearing the hot seat, and the Walman trade fiasco is looking worse by the day. If Yzerman deemed it was detrimental to have Walman on the team(originally it was his salary) he needs to change his priorities because one of the best teams in the league traded a first round pick for him. It's hard to trust the Yzerplan right now. If he wasn't a Detroit legend, everyone would be calling for his removal

But see, it's not "accountability", it's about having your curiosity sated. Nothing more.

If you think he was traded because of "his salary", that's fine. Go with that. That can be the explanation tailor-made just for you. For those of us who think he was traded because he was causing problems in the room, it's fine because that's our tailor-made explanation. Does it suck that he's in the second round of the playoffs now, and very likely could find himself playing for the Cup in a month? Yeah, because he could've helped us get to the playoffs. At the end of the day, *something* happened, and he was moved.

But he's not going to sate your curiosity, nor are we entitled to have that curiosity sated.

 

[SirloinUB]

When I evaluate Yzerman I think of everything up to the last year or so as foundation building and I think he has done an excellent job of that. Has every move been perfect? No but I didn't expect that. Every single GM is going to mess up and make a bad move. It is the nature of the job. Overall I'm very happy with the foundation he has built. Raymond, Ed, Kasper, AlJo, and a load of other prospects on the way is a strong position.

For those reasons the seat is not at all hot. He's got a couple more years of runway for me.

 

[The Zermanator]

Ahhh, so Walman is the latest Hossa vs Hudler nonsense debate that will drag on for ages I guess.

It's quite obvious what happened without even knowing specifically what happened. Yzerman has said explicitly that out of respect for Walman he won't give the details. And not a single player came out and said something to the effect of "whoa totally unexpected, great teammate gonna miss him". It stands to reason Walman did something or behaved himself in a way that made his continued presence on the team untenable. Simple as that.

As far as the (lack of) return? First of all, we have no way of knowing what conversations were had and with whom, this happened right before the draft when there were a lot of moving parts for every single team, including the Wings. And secondly, who really cares that much? I'd love to hear an argument about how that 2nd round pick set the team back substantially. Because on the balance Yzerman has made great use of his draft picks and has brought a rock bottom team to the brink of the playoffs, with most major parts of his rebuild either already primary contributors, on the cusp of it, or chomping at the bit to graduate to the team and make an impact. We've almost made the playoffs two years running, and about to have the likes of Holl replaced by ASP, Compher replaced by Danielson, Tarasenko replaced by Mazur, and with plenty more on the way. Seriously, who gives this much of a f*** about a 2024 late 2nd round pick?!?

The amount of mental and digital bandwidth being spent on this is, in a word, ridiculous.

 

[SirloinUB]

Ahhh, so Walman is the latest Hossa vs Hudler nonsense debate that will drag on for ages I guess.

It's quite obvious what happened without even knowing specifically what happened. Yzerman has said explicitly that out of respect for Walman he won't give the details. And not a single player came out and said something to the effect of "whoa totally unexpected, great teammate gonna miss him". It stands to reason Walman did something or behaved himself in a way that made his continued presence on the team untenable. Simple as that.

As far as the (lack of) return? First of all, we have no way of knowing what conversations were had and with whom, this happened right before the draft when there were a lot of moving parts for every single team, including the Wings. And secondly, who really cares that much? I'd love to hear an argument about how that 2nd round pick set the team back substantially. Because on the balance Yzerman has made great use of his draft picks and has brought a rock bottom team to the brink of the playoffs, with most major parts of his rebuild either already primary contributors, on the cusp of it, or chomping at the bit to graduate to the team and make an impact. We've almost made the playoffs two years running, and about to have the likes of Holl replaced by ASP, Compher replaced by Danielson, Tarasenko replaced by Mazur, and with plenty more on the way. Seriously, who gives this much of a f*** about a 2024 late 2nd round pick?!?

The amount of mental and digital bandwidth being spent on this is, in a word, ridiculous.

To me it's ultimately water under the bridge, but one thing I find it interesting with all the hand wringing over the Walman + 2nd for Future Considerations that no one is bringing up Staal + 2nd for Future Considerations. For every "bad move" yzerman has made he has a similar good move.

On the balance of everything, Yzerman has done well.

 

[Frk It]

As far as the (lack of) return? First of all, we have no way of knowing what conversations were had and with whom, this happened right before the draft when there were a lot of moving parts for every single team, including the Wings. And secondly, who really cares that much? I'd love to hear an argument about how that 2nd round pick set the team back substantially. Because on the balance Yzerman has made great use of his draft picks and has brought a rock bottom team to the brink of the playoffs, with most major parts of his rebuild either already primary contributors, on the cusp of it, or chomping at the bit to graduate to the team and make an impact.

100%. But the Walman move goes squarely in the L column. No need to defend an indefensible move.

It's crazy people are still pushing the --

"There must be reasons we don't know about that make this move justifiable"

As opposed to the much more likely --

"A bad move was made"

 

[The Zermanator]

100%. But the Walman move goes squarely in the L column. No need to defend an indefensible move.

It's crazy people are still pushing the --

"There must be reasons we don't know about that make this move justifiable"

As opposed to the much more likely --

"A bad move was made"

Anything can be indefensible on its face when you don't know the details which would necessarily form the basis of any defense.

But that's not really the point. I'll even grant that it was a bad move, though I'd argue the degree to which it was bad depends on those details that we're not privy to. I don't think there's a whole lot of corroborating evidence to suggest that it was a really bad move, Yzerman doesn't have a history of such things and I doubt his brain just jumped out of his head that morning before he pulled the trigger. If someone is going to make the argument that he gave up a 2nd when he could have gotten a substantial return elsewhere, they should support that claim with something tangible.

I think what's more likely is he was rushed at a time when there were a lot of moving parts. He wanted Walman gone ASAP, he may have ended up needing the cap space in the days to come with the draft and free agency right around the corner, he may have had conversations with many teams that were either going nowhere or they had bigger priorities right before the draft and wouldn't commit to anything decent, so he pulled the trigger on what he had in front of him, not ideal as it was. A bird in hand and all that. There are so many possible scenarios, regarding both Walman's conduct that bought his ticket out of town as well as the circumstances surrounding his trade, that the blind speculation is ultimately useless.

My point is that it's ridiculous that such a minor thing is such a point of contention a full calendar year later. That 2nd is not something that moves the needle for this franchise one way or another, and it pales in comparison to all the improvements we've seen and are about to see. Just move on, people.

 

[jkutswings]

..and it pales in comparison to all the improvements we've seen and are about to see.

I have no interest in further debating the Walman trade. But what improvements are you confident that we are about to see? The past month has been very contradictory for what Detroit will or won't do this summer and into next season.

My best guess is that next year won't be all that different from this one - sure, another couple kids will join, but Seider still won't have a true partner, several players will still be slotted above their ability, and the team will be around .500 again in another "wait for the future" year.

 

[The Zermanator]

I have no interest in further debating the Walman trade. But what improvements are you confident that we are about to see? The past month has been very contradictory for what Detroit will or won't do this summer and into next season.

My best guess is that next year won't be all that different from this one - sure, another couple kids will join, but Seider still won't have a true partner, several players will still be slotted above their ability, and the team will be around .500 again in another "wait for the future" year.

There are several avenues of improvement for the near future, some locked in and some yet to be determined.

- Continued improvement from Raymond and Seider. I think both are probably pretty close to their individual ceilings at this point, but more experience and an improving supporting cast will help them cement themselves as stars and perhaps even reach another gear.

- Edvinsson and Kasper are what Raymond and Seider were 2-4 seasons ago. Budding stars who are already making contributions but with lots of runway left to improve every year, and high ceilings. I expect next season to be no different. Edvinsson will cement himself as a top 2-level dman and prove himself capable of carrying his own pairing, and Kasper will cement himself as a top 6 centre and good chance he's flirting with 30 goals with a full season in the top 6.

- We have lots of players who have promise to create a strong supporting cast, and who may be really close to doing so. Albert Johansson has already come a long way and is a solid bottom 4 option, and Anton Johansson seems to be close to being a solid bottom pair option as well. Up front, we have the likes of Soderblom, Mazur, Danielson, and Lombardi waiting in the wings to snag a middle/bottom 6 spot. Based on what we've seen from these players so far, it's not much of a stretch to imagine they'll be an upgrade on the likes of Holl, Petry, Tarasenko, Motte, and Smith. And a good chance that happens sooner than later.

- In goal, we have two prime goalie prospects who should be ready to take on backup duties in the next year or two, and good chance we'll get at least one starter-level goalie out of those two.

- Buchelnikov is a wild card and hard to really project, definition of a boom or bust. He may well end up being a non-factor, but if he hits then watch out.

With the exception of Buchelnikov, most of what I've mentioned above is based on reasonable projections based on what we've seen from these players. So those are the more or less "locked-in" improvements. It's just a matter of time for those.

In terms of possible improvements that are yet to be determined, I can only speculate on those. But it's not hard to imagine scenarios where 2-3 key acquisitions completely change the outlook for this team as soon as next season IMO.

For the sake of argument, imagine this scenario involving two external additions:

1) A solid top4 dman is acquired through trade or free agency. That could mean Hague as @Petes2424 suggests may be on the table, or perhaps one of Gavrikov or Provorov sign as a free agent.
2) Ehlers signs as a free agent.

So let's look at the possible team in that scenario:

Ehlers-Larkin-Raymond
Debrincat-Kasper-Kane
Soderblom-Copp-Danielson
Mazur-Rasmussen-Compher

Hague/Provorov/Gavrikov-Seider
Edvinsson-ASP
Chiarot-Johansson

Mrazek
Talbot
Cossa (backup when one of the two above is injured)

Now I don't know about you, but if the teams we've iced in the last 2 seasons were 3 or fewer points away from making the playoffs, the team above makes the playoffs IMO. And with lots of talent still on the way.

 

[Frk It]

Anything can be indefensible on its face when you don't know the details which would necessarily form the basis of any defense.

But that's not really the point. I'll even grant that it was a bad move, though I'd argue the degree to which it was bad depends on those details that we're not privy to. I don't think there's a whole lot of corroborating evidence to suggest that it was a really bad move, Yzerman doesn't have a history of such things and I doubt his brain just jumped out of his head that morning before he pulled the trigger. If someone is going to make the argument that he gave up a 2nd when he could have gotten a substantial return elsewhere, they should support that claim with something tangible.

If the only way you can move him is to attach a 2nd rounder, then you don’t do it. That’s like a 2 second cost benefit analysis.

I think what's more likely is he was rushed at a time when there were a lot of moving parts. He wanted Walman gone ASAP, he may have ended up needing the cap space in the days to come with the draft and free agency right around the corner, he may have had conversations with many teams that were either going nowhere or they had bigger priorities right before the draft and wouldn't commit to anything decent, so he pulled the trigger on what he had in front of him, not ideal as it was. A bird in hand and all that. There are so many possible scenarios, regarding both Walman's conduct that bought his ticket out of town as well as the circumstances surrounding his trade, that the blind speculation is ultimately useless.

My point is that it's ridiculous that such a minor thing is such a point of contention a full calendar year later. That 2nd is not something that moves the needle for this franchise one way or another, and it pales in comparison to all the improvements we've seen and are about to see. Just move on, people.

Whatever the reasoning was, looks like it was very likely a miscalculation on our end.

I think there are 3 things in the L column you would have to really reach to try to defend: Walman trade, Holl signing, drafting Brady Cleveland

But I would put a lot more things in the W column, which is why I am in favor of letting Yzerman continue on with leading the team.

 

[The Zermanator]

If the only way you can move him is to attach a 2nd rounder, then you don’t do it. That’s like a 2 second cost benefit analysis.

Your cost/benefit analysis is unreliable if you're not including the reason they wanted to trade him in the calculation. An important detail that we're not aware of.

Here's a scenario:
- Walman got inappropriate with a teammate's wife (this is a total fabrication purely to illustrate a point, to make that clear). Nothing that crossed a line where punishment, contract cancellation, etc. would come into play, but enough that his continued presence on the team was untenable.
- At the time, after a very underwhelming season, the only way to move him was by attaching a 2nd rounder.

Do you still not do it? Perhaps Yzerman knew that it was a bad move, but did it anyway because he felt it was the best thing for the team in the totality of the circumstances at that particular point in time. We just. Do. Not. Know. But given how much draft capital he's brought into the team, and what he's done with it, I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt. That's why I never found the "Yzerman was just a bonehead that day" explanation compelling. It doesn't jive with his history. Based on that history, I find it much more likely that the trade was a necessary, if unpalatable, move because of information that we are not privy to.

Whatever the reasoning was, looks like it was very likely a miscalculation on our end.

I think there are 3 things in the L column you would have to really reach to try to defend: Walman trade, Holl signing, drafting Brady Cleveland

But I would put a lot more things in the W column, which is why I am in favor of letting Yzerman continue on with leading the team.

As far as the L column, if the worst criticisms you can make about a GM are 3 relatively small potatoes and inconsequential moves, that's a pretty damn good GM.

We're definitely in agreement that his W column is much more substantial.

 

[Frk It]

Your cost/benefit analysis is unreliable if you're not including the reason they wanted to trade him in the calculation. An important detail that we're not aware of.

Here's a scenario:
- Walman got inappropriate with a teammate's wife (this is a total fabrication purely to illustrate a point, to make that clear). Nothing that crossed a line where punishment, contract cancellation, etc. would come into play, but enough that his continued presence on the team was untenable.
- At the time, after a very underwhelming season, the only way to move him was by attaching a 2nd rounder.

Do you still not do it? Perhaps Yzerman knew that it was a bad move, but did it anyway because he felt it was the best thing for the team in the totality of the circumstances at that particular point in time. We just. Do. Not. Know. But given how much draft capital he's brought into the team, and what he's done with it, I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt. That's why I never found the "Yzerman was just a bonehead that day" explanation compelling. It doesn't jive with his history. Based on that history, I find it much more likely that the trade was a necessary, if unpalatable, move because of information that we are not privy to.



As far as the L column, if the worst criticisms you can make about a GM are 3 relatively small potatoes and inconsequential moves, that's a pretty damn good GM.

We're definitely in agreement that his W column is much more substantial.

If he did something so bad we had to attach a 2nd rounder to move him why would another team trade a 1st to add him to their team?

That’s where this whole “something must have happened to justify this” argument falls real flat for me.

I would guess Yzerman thought he had a more impactful free agency lined up and was too overeager on wanting to move on from Walman, with the Kiiskinen trade as something he could use to justify the move.