Your Wildly Outrageous (History of) Hockey Opinions...

[Moose Head]

Sam Pollock’s Habs weren’t that great at drafting. He was great at acquiring an overwhelming amount of high picks, but if the habs had drafted better, the dynasty may have gone into the 80’s. Quite a few duds during his tenure and that continued with the organization he put in place and left behind.

 

[blogofmike]

Oh I got one - Bobby Orrs Norris trophies are in the weakest era for Dmen in league history. That's not to say his Norris's are weak - but boosting the other Dmen in this era (basically Brad Park) for having to play in his shadow gives them more credit than they deserve.

The first Norris is downright weak.

It's also one of those examples that shows why the first half / second half voting system was terrible.

Orr played like a legitimate Norris contender in the first half, and had a clear lead in Norris votes, even if he wasn't quite Bobby Orr yet. Orr was also 3rd in Hart voting, with Boston going 18-6-6 when he played, and 2-5 when he was out of the lineup.

First half stats

One flaw illustrated by this system is that Orr had the Norris locked up after playing 30 games.

A second flaw, is that 2nd half voting was still influenced by first half results. Voters clearly remembered what happened in the fall, which obviates the need for first half voting.

Second half stats

Orr received 12 2nd-half points too, 16 games, 8 points, +4, and Boston is 12-8-1 without Orr and 5-8-3 with Orr. Nothing about the 2nd half record screams this guy deserves to be 3rd in Norris votes, especially when he's playing 16 of 37 2nd half games, but people obviously were weighing the season as a whole. This gives more weight to first half games, and recreates the mirror image of the same problem it was presumably trying to solve.

 

[MS]

Oh I got one - Bobby Orrs Norris trophies are in the weakest era for Dmen in league history. That's not to say his Norris's are weak - but boosting the other Dmen in this era (basically Brad Park) for having to play in his shadow gives them more credit than they deserve.

Players from the 1970s - and this includes Orr - are the most overrated in history.

There is this romantic Golden Generation from the 1970s - Orr, Esposito, Lafleur, Sittler, Clarke, etc. - but the reason all of those guys look so good statistically and seem so good in hindsight is that they dominated by far the worst level of play and competition and parity in NHL history. Over-expansion, terrible teams, goon hockey, slooooooooow pace of play, tons of very old players lingering in a very bad league.

3. Vernon is the worst HHOFer i've ever seen.

This is not controversial. He was an absolutely dogshit induction, probably the worst in history.

 

[ricky0034]

I like lockouts and would like to see another one

they're interesting to follow and honestly I even view missed games as a positive as long as it doesn't go so far as cancelling an entire season because I think 82 games is too many

 

[Slats432]

I like lockouts

they're interesting to follow and honestly I even view missed games as a positive as long as it doesn't go so far as cancelling an entire season because I think 82 games is too many

 

[MadLuke]

There is this romantic Golden Generation from the 1970s - Orr, Esposito, Lafleur, Sittler, Clarke, etc. - but the reason all of those guys look so good statistically and seem so good in hindsight is that they dominated by far the worst level of play and competition and parity in NHL history.

I feel for some, almost for sure Lafleur, look much better among those who watched them from the Remparts to MTL than stats, were Gretzky made him look not that special.

I feel like he ever just went down in people mind, never up, the songs, statues, meme, crowd at the funerals:

That not because of stats... it is about beating the Bruins and Flyers in the playoff.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Players from the 1970s - and this includes Orr - are the most overrated in history.

There is this romantic Golden Generation from the 1970s - Orr, Esposito, Lafleur, Sittler, Clarke, etc. - but the reason all of those guys look so good statistically and seem so good in hindsight is that they dominated by far the worst level of play and competition and parity in NHL history. Over-expansion, terrible teams, goon hockey, slooooooooow pace of play, tons of very old players lingering in a very bad league.

This is a terrible opinion, considering hockey in the early 80s was drastically worse than the 70s.

 

[MS]

I feel for some, almost for sure Lafleur, look much better among those who watched them from the Remparts to MTL than stats, were Gretzky made him look not that special.

I feel like he ever just went down in people mind, never up, the songs, statues, meme, crowd at the funerals:

That not because of stats... it is about beating the Bruins and Flyers in the playoff.

This is not to say that Lafleur et al weren't wonderful players who deserve to be remembered fondly.

I'm just saying that if the O6 era went until 1980 and guys like this were scoring 80 points in 70 games instead of 130 points in 80 games, they might be remembered a bit differently.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Players from the 1970s - and this includes Orr - are the most overrated in history.

There is this romantic Golden Generation from the 1970s - Orr, Esposito, Lafleur, Sittler, Clarke, etc. - but the reason all of those guys look so good statistically and seem so good in hindsight is that they dominated by far the worst level of play and competition and parity in NHL history. Over-expansion, terrible teams, goon hockey, slooooooooow pace of play, tons of very old players lingering in a very bad league.

Any time you double, then triple the League, basically overnight, and at the same time, a rival league in the WHA comes into existence to peel away some more players, it's going to have a pretty dramatic effect.

Look at what would be the oddest career arc, absent the context circumstances

Johnny Bucyck 1958-59 through 1966-67: 491 points in 583 games (0.84 PPG) -> Ages 23-31 (what we'd think would be prime)
Johnny Bucyck 1967-68 through 1975-76: 735 points in 683 games (1.08 PPG) -> Ages 32-40 (what we'd think would be slowing down)

It also goes a long way to explaining why Gordie Howe was able to remain a high-level pro hockey player from ages 39-51 as well. He already had insane longevity as a player just from the O6 era alone. With such a massive expansion in pro hockey opportunities, it takes the talent pool some time to catch up (a point I'm pretty big on) in order to fit the demand, and the number of teams didn't stabilize and even give the pool TIME to catch up for quite some time throughout that era in question. If more and more Minor Players or players that would have gone undrafted and into Senior Hockey are becoming professionals every year, then someone that's been continually at the elite level throughout it all has more and more of a leg up each time it happens.

 

[MS]

This is a terrible opinion, considering hockey in the early 80s was drastically worse than the 70s.

It definitely was not.

By the early '80s you have fewer teams (relative to WHA + NHL), the talent boom of the 1960s appearing, plus the influx of US and Euro talent.

Your average regular season game from 1976 is absolutely terrible.

 

[Overrated]

This is not to say that Lafleur et al weren't wonderful players who deserve to be remembered fondly.

Lafleur peaked just a few years prior to Gretzky and averaged like 80 points less in his prime. Clarke about a 100 points less. That is how good these guys were.

 

[MadLuke]

I'm just saying that if the O6 era went until 1980 and guys like this were scoring 80 points in 70 games instead of 130 points in 80 games, they might be remembered a bit differently.

Not sure, Richard was remembered even more fondly never went over a ppg much, Dionne has some of the best stats ever and he is not remembered nearly as fondly.

Really unsure stats has much to do with how people are remembered or what they do against weak competition in December helping them much becoming legend or not, it was cheap and easy to buy tickets in MTL until the conference final....

Or that Lafleur historical ranking is in hindsight..... I feel he just went purely down since 1980, when he would have been not special for people to put him in their top 10 player ever at some point.

 

[Overrated]

I feel for some, almost for sure Lafleur, look much better among those who watched them from the Remparts to MTL than stats, were Gretzky made him look not that special.

I feel like he ever just went down in people mind, never up, the songs, statues, meme, crowd at the funerals:

That not because of stats... it is about beating the Bruins and Flyers in the playoff.

Liba said Lafleur seemed like a bigger star than Gretzky and that wherever they went everyone was chanting his name. Just a trivia.

 

[JackSlater]

Not sure, Richard was remembered even more fondly never went over a ppg much, Dionne has some of the best stats ever and he is not remembered nearly as fondly.

Really unsure stats has much to do with how people are remembered or what they do against weak competition in December helping them much becoming legend or not, it was cheap and easy to buy tickets in MTL until the conference final....

Or that Lafleur historical ranking is in hindsight..... I feel he just went purely down since 1980, when he would have been not special for people to put him in their top 10 player ever at some point.

Memories of players fade but the numbers stay the same. People who watched Orr and Gretzky often pick Orr as the better player; plenty pick Gretzky as well but it's pretty close. People who watched only Gretzky or neither player almost always go with Gretzky.

 

[jigglysquishy]

If the question is who was better over 5 or 7 seasons, I actually think this forum would take Orr. But when we rank players Gretzky 1988-1991 is still incredible. And Gretzky 1991-1999 is not worth zero.

If we ever do that peaks project, I suspect Orr finishes first.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Any time you double, then triple the League, basically overnight, and at the same time, a rival league in the WHA comes into existence to peel away some more players, it's going to have a pretty dramatic effect.

Look at what would be the oddest career arc, absent the context circumstances

Johnny Bucyck 1958-59 through 1966-67: 491 points in 583 games (0.84 PPG) -> Ages 23-31 (what we'd think would be prime)
Johnny Bucyck 1967-68 through 1975-76: 735 points in 683 games (1.08 PPG) -> Ages 32-40 (what we'd think would be slowing down)

It also goes a long way to explaining why Gordie Howe was able to remain a high-level pro hockey player from ages 39-51 as well. He already had insane longevity as a player just from the O6 era alone. With such a massive expansion in pro hockey opportunities, it takes the talent pool some time to catch up (a point I'm pretty big on) in order to fit the demand, and the number of teams didn't stabilize and even give the pool TIME to catch up for quite some time throughout that era in question. If more and more Minor Players or players that would have gone undrafted and into Senior Hockey are becoming professionals every year, then someone that's been continually at the elite level throughout it all has more and more of a leg up each time it happens.

It's just a coincidence those splits perfectly line up to with and without Orr and Espo?

I love Bucyk but his stats explosion is more from feeding from the Orr-Espo buffet than because of expansion

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's just a coincidence those splits perfectly line up to with and without Orr and Espo?

I love Bucyk but his stats explosion is more from feeding from the Orr-Espo buffet than because of expansion

Heck, Espo himself scored 23, 27, then 21 goals with the Blackhawks, and he was still a developing player, but with his timing in Boston and the expansion, that probably helped a lot as well.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Esposito also didn't get PP time in Chicago.

His last season there he was 3rd in the league in EVP. But only had 8 PP points.

Now, he spent 2/3rds of his prime on the ice with either Bobby Hull or Bobby Orr. So that impacts it too.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Esposito also didn't get PP time in Chicago.

His last season there he was 3rd in the league in EVP. But only had 8 PP points.

Now, he spent 2/3rds of his prime on the ice with either Bobby Hull or Bobby Orr. So that impacts it too.

It's considered the worst trade in Blackhawks history even though Martin was a very good player

 

[Gorskyontario]

It definitely was not.

By the early '80s you have fewer teams (relative to WHA + NHL), the talent boom of the 1960s appearing, plus the influx of US and Euro talent.

Your average regular season game from 1976 is absolutely terrible.

The early 80s was complete trash. Gretzky's point totals are the biggest proof of this. Unless you think him scoring less points as he entered his prime means the early 80s was somehow less pathetic?

 

[Ishdul]

The early 80s was complete trash. Gretzky's point totals are the biggest proof of this. Unless you think him scoring less points as he entered his prime means the early 80s was somehow less pathetic?

A forward's offensive prime is typically 22 to 28, which lines up pretty well with Gretzky. Gretzky is still a 160 point player at age 30 in the 90's on a much less stacked team and is the highest scoring player in the 90's despite being older, hurt and on average to bad teams, all of which seems pretty consistent with being a 200 point player in his best years in a better offensive environment. Players outside of Gretzky weren't putting up Gretzky numbers and part of the reason we see the 80s as being kind of strong is because it has Gretzky in his prime.

 

[Leafshater67]

I love him but Marc-Andre Fleury is a massively overrated goaltender. He’ll get into the HOF though.

 

[The Panther]

The early 80s was complete trash. Gretzky's point totals are the biggest proof of this. Unless you think him scoring less points as he entered his prime means the early 80s was somehow less pathetic?

Umm... no.

The early 80s was not a great period for consistently strong NHL hockey across the board. I think we all know that.

However, to suggest that the early-80s was "worse" hockey than the mid-1970s is counter logical, as others have pointed out. There were 32 pro-teams in 1975, and 21 in the early 80s (with a deeper talent pool). The number of Europeans (and Americans) in the NHL in the early 1980s dwarfed those of the mid-1970s.

As to Gretzky, in your (no doubt very strong) opinion, when did he "enter his prime"?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I love him but Marc-Andre Fleury is a massively overrated goaltender. He’ll get into the HOF though.

I think that's the majority opinion...both of those things.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I guess while we're in a weird thread...and I think I'm a big "quality of league".......guy...here.

How do folks keep getting away with full freight on the whole "pro teams" argument when talking about the WHA?

"There used to one half of one team and then the WHA came along and there was 76 zillion pro teams!!!"

But like...why does that glorified minor league get the full freight of "pro team" as if they were NHL caliber teams?

The top scorers in the WHA generally couldn't hack it in the NHL. The teams came over and finished generally last.

Top 20 WHA scorers in 1979:
Real Cloutier - nearly a goal per game, almost 2 points per game. Settles into being just over a point per game player in the NHL in his prime years. Never finished top 10 in goals/assists/points in the NHL after being a fixture of such in the WHA, starting as a teenager.

Robbie Ftorek - Goes from WHA assist leader and regular 100 point producer, ends up being a sub-point per game player in an NHL where everyone and their mother was a point per game. It took him two years at a whack to match his WHA totals.

Wayne Gretzky - He had, what, 100 something points as a 17 year old? I mean, he's otherworldly no matter what.

Mark Howe - Also a real legit player, more complete than the fly-by-night guys that populated this league. He transitioned into having an amazing NHL career...even after 1985, when you basically everyone hit a wall as the NHL recovered and the losers were tossed aside.

Kent Nilsson - Another star level talent. He could have continued in the NHL past 1987 if he chose to. Though, he certainly benefited from the overall soft defensive play of the WHA...his talent is clear.

Morris Lukowich - 60+ goals in the WHA, then it took two NHL seasons to stick that kind of year together again. Flaked out of the league by 30, like many other prolific players...hit that mid 80's NHL recovery and couldn't hang.

Marc Tardif - Production halved by the jump to a deeper league.

Andre Lacroix - Got a chance with the expansion Flyers and then started to work his way out of the league. Became an all time WHA player. Couldn't hack it (at a fairly advanced age, to be fair) in the NHL on the other side.

Terry Ruskowski - Was a really good player on the best teams in the WHA, then hung on as a setup man on the worst teams in the NHL. I'll give him credit for keeping it going in the NHL though, he deserves that.

Peter Sullivan - Point per game WHAer...wasn't good enough for the NHL.

Serge Bernier - See Andre Lacroix.

Rich LeDuc - Not good enough to play in the NHL regularly on either side of the coin.

Mike Rogers - Oddly productive in the early 80's NHL. Out of the league at age 30, that dreaded mid 80's wall that incomplete, poorly developed players generally couldn't hop.

Blair McDonald - Friend of Wayne-o, see: Mike Rogers.

Reg Thomas - Another top 20 WHA scorer that absolutely could not play in the NHL.

Brett Calligan - See: Blair McDonald

Jamie Hislop - Another guy that was a prominent WHAer, couldn't survive the mid 80's NHL recovery.

Ron Chipperfield - Another top 20 WHA scorer that couldn't play in the NHL in his prime. A bad NHL, still couldn't do it.

Peter Marsh - Yet another guy that couldn't survive the mid 80's talent recovery despite being 27.

Dave Keon - 40 year old guy just keeping it going. Showing the adaptability to extend his career way longer than most could because the conditions were such that he could continue do his thing despite being an O6 star. He finally got free to play offensive hockey after playing for the defensive Leafs...good for him. Must have been a breath of fresh air to have all that open ice...

That's not impressive. And again, it's not like early 80's NHL is anything. It stinks. But even these top end, star WHAers - generally speaking, couldn't hack it. That tells me you had a bunch of minor league talent and a handful of stars taking advantage of them. Dave Dryden, Jim Corsi, and these other prominent WHA goalies - couldn't hack it in the NHL either.

And I'm not saying the WHA didn't have any talent and everyone was bad. They flashed some cash and grabbed some guys...but how many legit NHL teams could you have formed out of that league?

Here's the roster to the 1977 WHA All-Star game: WHA Game Summary

Is that the two legit NHL teams that you could make? I don't know...it's a bigger ask than I have time for right now and too many people that claim full freight for WHA "pro teams x100!" argument have also admitted to not watching it...so we may not get an answer to this any time soon...but do we have to keep accepting that trope at face value these days?