Your top 10 all time list, as of the 2022 offseason

[LightningStorm]

Jordan
James
Chamberlain
Abdul-Jabbar
Bird
Johnson
O'Neal
Durant
Olajuwon
West

Looks like you have the same criteria as me Jack, valuing skill and production over awards and winning. Durant was a player I desperately wanted to include in my top 10, but he just leaves me wanting more. When he's right mentally and on, I think he's better than both Kobe and Curry. Much more efficient than Kobe, and when he was with the Warriors, he was their best player, despite Curry being the reigning 2 time MVP when he joined them.

He's absolutely a top 10 talent, and I think he still has time to become a top 10 player. His length and shooting ability combo should give him good longevity. And as a big fan of his game I hope he gets things together for the rest of his career.

 

[Neutrinos]

Looks like you have the same criteria as me Jack, valuing skill and production over awards and winning. Durant was a player I desperately wanted to include in my top 10, but he just leaves me wanting more. When he's right mentally and on, I think he's better than both Kobe and Curry. Much more efficient than Kobe, and when he was with the Warriors, he was their best player, despite Curry being the reigning 2 time MVP when he joined them.

He's absolutely a top 10 talent, and I think he still has time to become a top 10 player. His length and shooting ability combo should give him good longevity. And as a big fan of his game I hope he gets things together for the rest of his career.

Durant will be 34 next month, so it's a fairly safe assumption that we've already seen the best version of him that we're going to get

He also has 939 regular season games on his resume - which is more than Jerry West - so how much more of a sample size do you need before determining whether or not he's a top 10 player?

You either think there's been 10 or more players throughout history who were better than Durant, or you think there's been 9 or less

 

[jcs0218]

Durant will be 34 next month, so it's a fairly safe assumption that we've already seen the best version of him that we're going to get

He also has 939 regular season games on his resume - which is more than Jerry West - so how much more of a sample size do you need before determining whether or not he's a top 10 player?

You either think there's been 10 or more players throughout history who were better than Durant, or you think there's been 9 or less

I don't like Kevin Durant. He is one of my least favourite athletes.

However, he has time and potential to move up the all-time ranking.

If he can take the Nets to an NBA title and get rid of the stigma that he can only win when he joins superteams, then that would do a lot of positive good for his all-time legacy.

Because right now many people are looking at his two NBA championships as meaningless, considering the team he joined and considering the context in which he joined them (choking away a 3-1 series lead against the Warriors when he didn't play well, and then joining the same team that he chocked a 3-1 series lead against.)

Winning on a team where he was the main focal point and a team that wasn't already dynasty-calibre before he arrived would make the optics look better on his entire career.

The same way that Kobe's career analysis looked better once he won titles on his own without O'Neal.

 

[jcs0218]

Russell at times has ben the most overrated player in NBA history.

He won a lot, which is great, and is certainly an all time great but people tend to forget that he had some great talent around him there wouldn't be the same lore around him had he won say 3 or 4 titles.

Some of this is definitely true.

I also think similar things about Jean Beliveau, even though that may be considered heresy by certain people.

 

[Voight]

I don't like Kevin Durant. He is one of my least favourite athletes.

However, he has time and potential to move up the all-time ranking.

If he can take the Nets to an NBA title and get rid of the stigma that he can only win when he joins superteams, then that would do a lot of positive good for his all-time legacy.

Because right now many people are looking at his two NBA championships as meaningless, considering the team he joined and considering the context in which he joined them (choking away a 3-1 series lead against the Warriors when he didn't play well, and then joining the same team that he chocked a 3-1 series lead against.)

Winning on a team where he was the main focal point and a team that wasn't already dynasty-calibre before he arrived would make the optics look better on his entire career.

The same way that Kobe's career analysis looked better once he won titles on his own without O'Neal.

In their 10 NBA finals games together, GS was -30 without Durant on the court and +21 without Steph.

Not trying to knock Steph but KD was the reason they went 8-1 in the two finals he played in. Yea he joined a great team but he certainly made his own impact.

 

[Neutrinos]

He was by the far the best player on those teams though and they didn't win the two years without him. His offensive numbers that get held against him likely would've been higher if there wasn't so much other talent on the team too. Auerbach wanted him to concentrate on defense first. As for his lore if he only won 3 or 4 titles, it doesn't matter because he won 11. The other hall of famers all came and went but Russell won all 11. Anyone who says Russell is better than Wilt, Kareem or Shaq is overating him but he's right up there with any other C.

Let's look at where Russell ranked statistically on those championship teams, shall we? (minimum 100 minutes played)

'57
PER 3rd, WS/48 4th

'59
PER 2nd, WS/48 3rd

'60
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'61
PER 1st, WS/48 2nd

'62
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'63
PER 1st (tied), WS/48 2nd

'64
PER 2nd, WS/48 2nd

'65
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'66
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'68
PER 4th, WS/48 5th

'69
PER 3rd, WS/48 6th


So, in 4 of those 11 championship runs, Russell lead his team in both PER & WS/48 during the same playoffs

Comparatively, Jordan lead his team in both PER & WS/48 during the playoffs in all 6 of his championship years

So, your assertion that Russell was "by far the best player on those teams" simply isn't accurate

With that said, Russell often lead his team in minutes played by a significant margin during the playoffs, so while he may not have always been his team's best player, in the majority of those years he was likely the most impactful

 

[JackSlater]

In their 10 NBA finals games together, GS was -30 without Durant on the court and +21 without Steph.

Not trying to knock Steph but KD was the reason they went 8-1 in the two finals he played in. Yea he joined a great team but he certainly made his own impact.

I find Durant's time on Golden State historically interesting. People rip him but to me, he clearly showed that he was the best player on the team even with the team being built around Curry and Curry's strengths. Yes Durant joined a great team, but he was then the best player on that team and had a lot of success.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Let's look at where Russell ranked statistically on those championship teams, shall we? (minimum 100 minutes played)

'57
PER 3rd, WS/48 4th

'59
PER 2nd, WS/48 3rd

'60
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'61
PER 1st, WS/48 2nd

'62
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'63
PER 1st (tied), WS/48 2nd

'64
PER 2nd, WS/48 2nd

'65
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'66
PER 1st, WS/48 1st

'68
PER 4th, WS/48 5th

'69
PER 3rd, WS/48 6th


So, in 4 of those 11 championships, Russell lead his team in both PER & WS/48 during the same playoffs

Comparatively, Jordan lead his team in both PER & WS/48 during the playoffs in all 6 of his championship years

So, your assertion that Russell was "by far the best player on those teams" simply isn't accurate

With that said, Russell often lead his team in minutes played by a significant margin during the playoffs, so while he may not have always been his team's best player, in the majority of those years he was likely the most impactful

I don't know or care what those stats mean. Anyone who thinks Russell wasn't by far the best player on those teams simply doesn't know what they're talking about. If you think cherry picking a couple advanced stats proves anything then your clueless.

 

[Voight]

I find Durant's time on Golden State historically interesting. People rip him but to me, he clearly showed that he was the best player on the team even with the team being built around Curry and Curry's strengths. Yes Durant joined a great team, but he was then the best player on that team and had a lot of success.

Hs tenure there gets underrated due to them having won before him (while also collapsing with a 3-1 lead) and now after he left (with a very different roster makeup outside of the core 3).

 

[Neutrinos]

I don't know or care what those stats mean. Anyone who thinks Russell wasn't by far the best player on those teams simply doesn't know what they're talking about. If you think cherry picking a couple advanced stats proves anything then your clueless.

*you're

 

[LightningStorm]

I don't know or care what those stats mean. Anyone who thinks Russell wasn't by far the best player on those teams simply doesn't know what they're talking about. If you think cherry picking a couple advanced stats proves anything then your clueless.

Bob Cousy and John Havlicek were superstars in their own right, so claiming Russell was by far the Celtics best player is a bit excessive.

 

[Neutrinos]

I don't know or care what those stats mean. Anyone who thinks Russell wasn't by far the best player on those teams simply doesn't know what they're talking about. If you think cherry picking a couple advanced stats proves anything then your clueless.

Bob Cousy and John Havlicek were superstars in their own right, so claiming Russell was by far the Celtics best player is a bit excessive.

Let's not forget about Sam Jones


'64 Playoffs

Russell's Per Game Averages
27.2 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 13.1 points, .356 FG%, .552 FT%, 45.1 minutes

Sam Jones' Per Game Averages
4.7 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 23.2 points, .506 FG%, .735 FT%, 35.6 minutes

Russell's Advanced Stats
18.9 PER, .406 TS%, -0.3 OWS, 2.2 DWS, 1.9 WS, .199 WS/48

Sam Jones' Advanced Stats
21.5 PER, .553 TS%, 1.5 OWS, 0.7 DWS, 2.1 WS, .290 WS/48

 

[Aladyyn]

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Steph Curry
8. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Bob Cousy and John Havlicek were superstars in their own right, so claiming Russell was by far the Celtics best player is a bit excessive.

Bill Russell won 5 MVP awards...Cousy and Havlicek combined have 1

 

[Stylizer1]

Stats don't prove how good a player was. It's how good a player was against their competition.

 

[LightningStorm]

Bill Russell won 5 MVP awards...Cousy and Havlicek combined have 1

As I've gotten older, I've become less impressed with awards. All in all skill and production are what I value the most. Awards can at times be reflective of biases and narratives at the time, and Russell winning more MVP's than Chamberlain exemplifies this. Along the lines of how Jeter won 5 Gold Gloves despite being a horrid defensive shortstop.

 

[Neutrinos]

Stats don't prove how good a player was. It's how good a player was against their competition.

Stats reflect how good a player was against their competition

 

[Neutrinos]

As I've gotten older, I've become less impressed with awards. All in all skill and production are what I value the most. Awards can at times be reflective of biases and narratives at the time, and Russell winning more MVP's than Chamberlain exemplifies this. Along the lines of how Jeter won 5 Gold Gloves despite being a horrid defensive shortstop.

In '62 and '63, Chamberlain lead the NBA in points, points per game, rebounds, rebounds per game, minutes played, minutes per game, free-throws made, free-throws attempted, Win Shares, Offensive Win Shares, WS/48, PER

Russell was voted league MVP both seasons

 

[Aladyyn]

In '62 and '63, Chamberlain lead the NBA in points, points per game, rebounds, rebounds per game, minutes played, minutes per game, free-throws made, free-throws attempted, Win Shares, Offensive Win Shares, WS/48, PER

Russell was voted league MVP both seasons

In '62 Russell's Celtics won 11 more games than Wilt's Warriors, thanks to their defense, which was at an absurd 6.5 per 100 possessions better than the 2nd best team. In '63 the Celtics won 27 more games than the Warriors, this time with a defensive rating 5.9 points better than the next best team. That is why Russell won those MVPs.

 

[Neutrinos]

In '62 Russell's Celtics won 11 more games than Wilt's Warriors, thanks to their defense, which was at an absurd 6.5 per 100 possessions better than the 2nd best team. In '63 the Celtics won 27 more games than the Warriors, this time with a defensive rating 5.9 points better than the next best team. That is why Russell won those MVPs.

So, you're saying the reason Russell won the league's Most Valuable Player was because he had better teammates than Wilt?

I'm not sure I see the logic in that

 

[Aladyyn]

So, you're saying the reason Russell won the league's Most Valuable Player was because he had better teammates than Wilt?

I'm not sure I see the logic in that

No, he won MVPs because he's by far the greatest defensive player in league history.

 

[LightningStorm]

No, he won MVPs because he's by far the greatest defensive player in league history.

One of the biggest mistakes people make when comparing players is thinking offensive and defensive ability for individual players is 50/50 when it's not. Hence why nobody thinks Ben Wallace is close to as good as Dirk Nowitzki, despite Ben being a far greater defender.

For a team, offense and defense are 50/50, but not when it comes to individual players. Russell's defensive ability (or any player for that matter) can never equal the value of Chamberlain's all time great scoring ability.

 

[Neutrinos]

No, he won MVPs because he's by far the greatest defensive player in league history.

Russell certainly has a commanding lead as the NBA's all time leader in Defensive Win Shares with a career total of 133.64, with Duncan 2nd all time at just 106.34

But Chamberlain is 5th all time in DWS with 93.92, so he's no slouch defensively either


Now, let's take a look at their Offensive Win Shares

Chamberlain's career OWS is 153. 34, which is 3rd all time behind KAJ and LeBron

Russell's career OWS is 29.9, which all time ranks... umm... uhh... I don't know because Basketball-Reference only lists the top 250 all time, and Russell ain't in it! To put that in perspective, Jonas Valanciunas is 223rd all time with a career mark of 41.95


Russell is currently 20th all time in Win Shares with 163.51

Chamberlain is 3rd all time at 247.26, behind only KAJ and LeBron


But since Chamberlain played significantly more career minutes, their career WS/48 will give us a more accurate representation of the on-court value they brought to their respective teams

Russell is 31st all time with .1927

Chamberlain is 3rd all time with .248, which trails only Jordan and David Robinson


And their single season high in WS/48?

Chamberlain's best season was .3251, which is the 3rd highest single season mark in league history, with KAJ owning the top 2 seasons

Russell's best season was .2384, which is 161st all time, and his only other appearance in the top 250 is 191st all time

Chamberlain has 9 seasons above Russell's single season best


So, even as the greatest defensive player by far in league history, Russell's on-court value to his team was considerably less than that which Chamberlain was contributing to his

The hockey equivalent might be something like Bourque vs Langway

 

[Aladyyn]

One of the biggest mistakes people make when comparing players is thinking offensive and defensive ability for individual players is 50/50 when it's not. Hence why nobody thinks Ben Wallace is close to as good as Dirk Nowitzki, despite Ben being a far greater defender.

For a team, offense and defense are 50/50, but not when it comes to individual players. Russell's defensive ability (or any player for that matter) can never equal the value of Chamberlain's all time great scoring ability.

I am someone that generally values offensive ability more but Russell's such an outlier when it comes to defense that it doesn't matter. And individual scoring is generally greatly overvalued, especially for a player like Wilt who was not a good creator and tanked his team's offenses as a result.

Russell certainly has a commanding lead as the NBA's all time leader in Defensive Win Shares with a career total of 133.64, with Duncan 2nd all time at just 106.34

But Chamberlain is 5th all time in DWS with 93.92, so he's no slouch defensively either


Now, let's take a look at their Offensive Win Shares

Chamberlain's career OWS is 153. 34, which is 3rd all time behind KAJ and LeBron

Russell's career OWS is 29.9, which all time ranks... umm... uhh... I don't know because Basketball-Reference only lists the top 250 all time, and Russell ain't in it! To put that in perspective, Jonas Valanciunas is 223rd all time with a career mark of 41.95


Russell is currently 20th all time in Win Shares with 163.51

Chamberlain is 3rd all time at 247.26, behind only KAJ and LeBron


But since Chamberlain played significantly more career minutes, their career WS/48 will give us a more accurate representation of the on-court value they brought to their respective teams

Russell is 31st all time with .1927

Chamberlain is 3rd all time with .248, which trails only Jordan and David Robinson


And their single season high in WS/48?

Chamberlain's best season was .3251, which is the 3rd highest single season mark in league history, with KAJ owning the top 2 seasons

Russell's best season was .2384, which is 161st all time, and his only other appearance in the top 250 is 191st all time

Chamberlain has 9 seasons above Russell's single season best


So, even as the greatest defensive player by far in league history, Russell's on-court value to his team was considerably less than that which Chamberlain was contributing to his

The hockey equivalent might be something like Bourque vs Langway

Win shares are a garbage stat that nobody takes seriously. Especially not defensive win shares from before blocks and steals started getting recorded.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

LeBron
Jordan
Kareem

Magic
Wilt
Bird

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Russell