Your Rebuild Opinion? Next Move Coming?

[FriendlyGhost92]

Are you aware of the situation the Wings have been in of late?

There are degrees of suck and our current suck level is considerably worse than Toronto's.

Yes.

And I'd definitely like to cap off 10 years of sucking with the light at the end of the tunnel being choking every single year in the first two rounds. Sounds amazing.

 

[Frk It]

Yes.

And I'd definitely like to cap off 10 years of sucking with the light at the end of the tunnel being choking every single year in the first two rounds. Sounds amazing.

How realistic do you think it is we come out of this re-build in a tangibly better spot than that?

 

[Oddbob]

Yes.

And I'd definitely like to cap off 10 years of sucking with the light at the end of the tunnel being choking every single year in the first two rounds. Sounds amazing.

Right now, we are far behind what Toronto has as its top pieces up front. Multiple 90 pt players (Matthews was on pace after 67 games), where our top guy had 80. They also had 2 more put up more pts than our 2nd best scorer. We have no one on our team currently aside from Raymond that looks like they will be 75+ pts every year for the foreseeable future. Larkin IF he stays healthy gets about 65-70 most years. Neither Kasper or Danielson looks like big pt producers in the 80+ category, so there is no one in our pipeline that puts us close to current Toronto.

We have better young D, but scoring needs to come from somewhere and we don't have top team offence.

Our rebuild is what it is at this point, and we will have fewer and fewer good spots to draft a big piece up front. To be where Toronto is currently, both Kasper and Danielson need to be 80+ pt guys, and I don't see that happening. Maybe one, but not both.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

How realistic do you think it is we come out of this re-build in a tangibly better spot than that?

It's a low bar to set. Do I think we're building a group that can get to the ECFs? Yes.

It'll depend on how the current prospects still pan out.

 

[jkutswings]

It's a low bar to set. Do I think we're building a group that can get to the ECFs? Yes.

It'll depend on how the current prospects still pan out.

Then you're far more optimistic than most. Barring one or more major trades, I don't see the home-grown talent ever getting out of the first round.

 

[Winger98]

Right now, we are far behind what Toronto has as its top pieces up front. Multiple 90 pt players (Matthews was on pace after 67 games), where our top guy had 80. They also had 2 more put up more pts than our 2nd best scorer. We have no one on our team currently aside from Raymond that looks like they will be 75+ pts every year for the foreseeable future. Larkin IF he stays healthy gets about 65-70 most years. Neither Kasper or Danielson looks like big pt producers in the 80+ category, so there is no one in our pipeline that puts us close to current Toronto.

We have better young D, but scoring needs to come from somewhere and we don't have top team offence.

Our rebuild is what it is at this point, and we will have fewer and fewer good spots to draft a big piece up front. To be where Toronto is currently, both Kasper and Danielson need to be 80+ pt guys, and I don't see that happening. Maybe one, but not both.

Have to point out that after McLellan got here we were the 13th best goals per game in the league the rest of the season. That was with a lot of players that a lot of folks want to chuck into the ocean with bags of pucks tied to their feet. But even with leaning on Compher and Copp and Tank and Ras, even with running Gus-Holl out there as our third pair...they could still score more than enough goals to win most nights.

Now, is the crazy good power play repeatable? Probably not. But this team wasn't an abnormally low scoring team. What really didn't help was that were like 20th in goals allowed per game, but hopefully that awful PK rebounds just as much as the power play regresses.

 

[Geezer WC]

I'm confused.

You think I'm a Toronto fan... With a username referencing a Detroit player... Coming into Detroit's board... To tell you Toronto's situation f***ing sucks... After you said how great it is and is something we should be happy with?

Wut?

I hate the Leafs but I am not sure what you are arguing. If Marner walks and JT takes the hometown discount..the frigging Leafs are in a great spot with a ton of cap room. The truth sucks.

 

[SirloinUB]

The definitiveness towards the inability of Marner, Matthews, JT. etc to wn in playoffs, especially from Red Wings fans, blows my mind.

Yzerman couldn't win it all, Datsyuk was labeled as a playoff choker, and I'm sure there are many other situations where a guy "couldn't" win but eventually did.

Maybe the Leafs need a fundamental change, but I don't think the narratives around these players are as black and white as fans and h8ers like to make them.

 

[Winger98]

The definitiveness towards the inability of Marner, Matthews, JT. etc to wn in playoffs, especially from Red Wings fans, blows my mind.

Yzerman couldn't win it all, Datsyuk was labeled as a playoff choker, and I'm sure there are many other situations where a guy "couldn't" win but eventually did.

Maybe the Leafs need a fundamental change, but I don't think the narratives around these players are as black and white as fans and h8ers like to make them.

I think the biggest issue for the Leafs has been that they dumped way too much cap into four forwards and then had the bad luck of seeing the cap stagnate for several years. If Covid doesn't happen, their cap situation would have gotten some relief and they would have been better able at fixing their blueline and goalie.

 

[stillwater]

Yzerman couldn't win it all, Datsyuk was labeled as a playoff choker, and I'm sure there are many other situations where a guy "couldn't" win but eventually did.

Many more situations where a guy "didn't".

 

[heyfolks]

OK< so you didn't like the McDavid deal. How about this one:


Jake Oettinger to the D for a #1, Cossa, Rasmussen, and Johansson. He's locked in at $8.5M for 7 years as 26.



Why? This coach buried him. He leaves or the coach leaves.






The Dallas Stars have several needs to address this offseason, primarily related to roster management and cap space constraints. They will need to make tough decisions about veterans like Jamie Benn and Matt Duchene, potentially requiring trades to make room. Key unrestricted free agents include Duchene, Benn, Evgenii Dadonov, Mikael Granlund, and Ceci. The Stars also need to figure out how to manage the salary increases for players like Wyatt Johnston and Jake Oettinger. They also need to address potential salary cap issues and the future of Jason Robertson.



Here's a more detailed breakdown of the Dallas Stars' offseason needs:


1. Managing Veteran Contracts:

• The Stars have several veteran players entering free agency, including Duchene, Benn, and possibly others.
  

• They will need to decide whether to re-sign these players, potentially requiring difficult decisions about salary and cap space.
  
  
• The potential departures of veterans like Duchene and Benn could leave some offensive and defensive voids.
  

2. Cap Space and Financial Considerations:

• The Stars are projected to have limited cap space, which will impact their ability to sign players.
  

• They may need to make trades or buyouts to create cap space.
  
  
• The salaries of young players like Johnston and Oettinger, as well as Rantanen's new contract, will put pressure on the cap.
  

3. Addressing Offensive Depth:

• The departure of Joe Pavelski and potential losses of other forwards could impact offensive depth.
  

• The Stars may need to add offensive talent through trades or free agency.
  
  
• They may also need to rely on players like Jason Robertson, who could be an option for trade if the Stars don't see him as a long-term fit.
  

4. Addressing Defensive Depth:

• The Stars' defensive corps may need to be reshaped.
• Potential losses of veterans like Ceci and Smith could leave some gaps.
• The Stars may need to add depth on the blue line through trades or free agency.

5. Key Player Decisions:

• The future of Jason Robertson is uncertain, with potential trade scenarios emerging.
  

• The Stars will need to make decisions about Robertson's contract, potentially impacting their ability to retain him.
  
  
• They will also need to decide on the futures of other key players, such as Jamie Benn.
  

 

[Austrianwing]

And I’d like to avoid that being a possibility. No to Marner. We’re also rumored to be off his 10-team wishlist as well. Let him get 13 mil from Holland in LA and get chewed up by Edmonton every 1st round for the next 8 years.

Ackshually, chewed up for 7 years unless it's a sign and trade
Pretty much agree though, lol.

 

[jkutswings]

Have to point out that after McLellan got here we were the 13th best goals per game in the league the rest of the season. That was with a lot of players that a lot of folks want to chuck into the ocean with bags of pucks tied to their feet. But even with leaning on Compher and Copp and Tank and Ras, even with running Gus-Holl out there as our third pair...they could still score more than enough goals to win most nights.

Now, is the crazy good power play repeatable? Probably not. But this team wasn't an abnormally low scoring team. What really didn't help was that were like 20th in goals allowed per game, but hopefully that awful PK rebounds just as much as the power play regresses.

To play devil's advocate, a bump from a new coach is fairly typical. Detroit had a better one than most, but I definitely do not expect that again this season.

Barring any major moves this summer, I expect the Wings to finish the 2025-26 season within 5 points of where they finished last year.

 

[schuelma24]

To play devil's advocate, a bump from a new coach is fairly typical. Detroit had a better one than most, but I definitely do not expect that again this season.

Barring any major moves this summer, I expect the Wings to finish the 2025-26 season within 5 points of where they finished last year.

To play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate, I'm hoping having a full offseason and training camp for McLellan to implement his system instead of trying to tread water with whatever Lalonde had instituted will be worth something as well.

 

[Run the Jewels]

To play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate, I'm hoping having a full offseason and training camp for McLellan to implement his system instead of trying to tread water with whatever Lalonde had instituted will be worth something as well.

LA Kings defensive performance over the past few seasons:

2020-21: 125.9 xGA (28th in NHL)
2021-22: 167.3 xGA (7th in NHL)
2022-23: 161.1 xGA (4th in NHL)
2023-24: 146.3 xGA (2nd in NHL)
2024-25: 151.4 xGA (2nd in NHL)

The Toddfather doesn't f**k around.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

LA Kings defensive performance over the past few seasons:

2020-21: 125.9 xGA (28th in NHL)
2021-22: 167.3 xGA (7th in NHL)
2022-23: 161.1 xGA (4th in NHL)
2023-24: 146.3 xGA (2nd in NHL)
2024-25: 151.4 xGA (2nd in NHL)

The Toddfather doesn't f**k around.

I agree, but he doesn't have the personal.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

To play devil's advocate, a bump from a new coach is fairly typical. Detroit had a better one than most, but I definitely do not expect that again this season.

Barring any major moves this summer, I expect the Wings to finish the 2025-26 season within 5 points of where they finished last year.

I think that is pretty hard to say before we have seen the team. I also think the PK will improve and a full training camp should help them play better. However, until we have seen them change 5 or 6 players it is really hard to predict right now.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I agree, but he doesn't have the personal.

 

[jkutswings]

I think that is pretty hard to say before we have seen the team. I also think the PK will improve and a full training camp should help them play better. However, until we have seen them change 5 or 6 players it is really hard to predict right now.

I guess that's partially my point. Are you really expecting them to change out 5 or 6 players? I'm thinking they'll add 1-2 kids and maybe swap 1-2 low level vets for another 1-2 low level vets. Changeover of 2-4 guys with only incremental improvement (about 90 points).

I absolutely hope I'm wrong, but Yzerman's "our best players need to play better" routine left me with very low expectations for this season, as if he's basically going to run it back with the guys he had.

 

[ricky0034]

The direct quote was "Detroit would be lucky to be in the situation Toronto is in now".

The subsequent argument stemmed when I pointed out that Toronto has blown their best contention window in 30+ years without even making an ECF.

That's not a desirable situation that we'd "Be lucky to be in" lol.

a situation can be more desirable than the situation the Wings are in without being super desirable overall

those aren't mutually exclusive things

The definitiveness towards the inability of Marner, Matthews, JT. etc to wn in playoffs, especially from Red Wings fans, blows my mind.

Yzerman couldn't win it all, Datsyuk was labeled as a playoff choker, and I'm sure there are many other situations where a guy "couldn't" win but eventually did.

Maybe the Leafs need a fundamental change, but I don't think the narratives around these players are as black and white as fans and h8ers like to make them.

eh I think it's pretty clear at this point they have the wrong mix and need to make some changes to their core

but that doesn't necessarily mean the individual players can't do well in the Playoffs, just that they don't work well together there and probably won't until some sort of major shakeup happens

 

[RabidBadger]

a situation can be more desirable than the situation the Wings are in without being super desirable overall

those aren't mutually exclusive things



eh I think it's pretty clear at this point they have the wrong mix and need to make some changes to their core

but that doesn't necessarily mean the individual players can't do well in the Playoffs, just that they don't work well together there and probably won't until some sort of major shakeup happens

Yep to that. If we rebuild and have the same results TO has had the past decade, I'm not going to be pacified and think "at least we're making the playoffs".

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yep to that. If we rebuild and have the same results TO has had the past decade, I'm not going to be pacified and think "at least we're making the playoffs".

I think one of the things that is lagging in my opinion in this picture though is the rapid expansion of pro leagues. A Toronto esk streak of no Cups is going to happen far more often. When I first started watching 5 teams missed the playoffs, now half the league does, though that probably does change soon.

I get wanting only championships and the ultimate goal driving towards that. I also think the modern sports fan needs to look at this differently than we did in the 80s and early 90s. It's exponentially harder to win one of these now in my opinion.

I certainly want the Stanley Cup to be the goal but the San Jose, Vancouver, Toronto thing of the last couple decades is going to happen more often in my opinion too. Where you built a real solid contender and for some reason it doesn’t work out. Still a lot better watching those teams for 82+ games than what we have been privileged to watch for a decade now.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I hate the Leafs but I am not sure what you are arguing. If Marner walks and JT takes the hometown discount..the frigging Leafs are in a great spot with a ton of cap room. The truth sucks.

That the same hometown discount JT took the first time?

Marner leaving would provide the Leafs cap space to address depth. Problem is the UFA pool ain't exactly the greatest, and Treliving doesn't exactly have a history of signing great deals.

 

[Frk It]

I think one of the things that is lagging in my opinion in this picture though is the rapid expansion of pro leagues. A Toronto esk streak of no Cups is going to happen far more often. When I first started watching 5 teams missed the playoffs, now half the league does, though that probably does change soon.

I get wanting only championships and the ultimate goal driving towards that. I also think the modern sports fan needs to look at this differently than we did in the 80s and early 90s. It's exponentially harder to win one of these now in my opinion.

I certainly want the Stanley Cup to be the goal but the San Jose, Vancouver, Toronto thing of the last couple decades is going to happen more often in my opinion too. Where you built a real solid contender and for some reason it doesn’t work out. Still a lot better watching those teams for 82+ games than what we have been privileged to watch for a decade now.

I have been saying a lot of this for years. Re-building a roster right now into a contender is by far the hardest that task has ever been.

Like yeah, no shit we can all hope we come out of this ahead of where Toronto is right now. That's fine.

But how likely do people think that actually is? If that is where you are going to choose to set your bar as far as expectations, I think you are choosing to have your head in the clouds and should understand that.

 

[RabidBadger]

I think one of the things that is lagging in my opinion in this picture though is the rapid expansion of pro leagues. A Toronto esk streak of no Cups is going to happen far more often. When I first started watching 5 teams missed the playoffs, now half the league does, though that probably does change soon.

I get wanting only championships and the ultimate goal driving towards that. I also think the modern sports fan needs to look at this differently than we did in the 80s and early 90s. It's exponentially harder to win one of these now in my opinion.

I certainly want the Stanley Cup to be the goal but the San Jose, Vancouver, Toronto thing of the last couple decades is going to happen more often in my opinion too. Where you built a real solid contender and for some reason it doesn’t work out. Still a lot better watching those teams for 82+ games than what we have been privileged to watch for a decade now.

Well, I didn't mention anything about wanting only championships, I stated Toronto's track record of their current roster is not something I care to witness for us. I realize full well many more rebuilds bust than succeed.

In the case of Toronto, they've blown a golden opportunity through abject mismanagement. I said from the first day it was idiotic when Kyle Dumbass signed Tavares when the clear need was on the back end. Aside from that, it was painfully obvious the roster needed tweeks several years ago but they insisted on rolling out the core 4 to no success and no attempt to make changes. Yeah, they threw a couple different coaches at them hoping for better results. If I watched our core have the same results for 5 straight years in the playoffs (let alone 10 like Toronto) and no significant changes were made a mushroom cloud would erupt from my skull.

That being said, I'd rather take a chance and see what happens with our rebuild than going through what Leafs fans are witnessing.