Your Rebuild Opinion? Next Move Coming?

[Winger98]

I just don’t see Bennett as such an upgrade talent-wise, to me he is a way more physical Copp. I just don’t think Red Wings need a third overpaid middle six center, especially with how Kasper played and Danielson also pushing for roster slot

Bennett has been a pretty consistent 40 point guy in florida while missing 10-15 games every year. I think his production will be a clear step up from Copp and, as you mentioned, brings a lot more physical play. I can see why we'd bring him in. After that, have to agree about bringing in another mid level center.

We might not like Copp, Compher, and Rasmussen but of the three of them, we should have the bottom6 covered center spots covered. If we deal one or two of those guys out, then maybe going after a Gourde or Christian Dvorak would make sense.

 

[Snuggs]

I don’t want them to sign Boeser or Bennett regardless of price. We don’t need centers, and Boeser doesn’t seem to me as a good fit, so it would be like another Tarasenko signing.

On D, i‘m not sure Provorov is worth the big money, his Philly last couple of years were ugly. I‘d rather sign Orlov on a shorter term

I'm with you; and I'm not a draft guy but if Kasper/Danielson/Lombardi can't wrestle away a middle center spot from Copp/Compher... What are we even doing then, We've got more problems than just signing a guy like Bennett.

I want to be impressed and see something seismic when it comes to talent brought in. I really don't even wanna hear names like Bennett and I want name like Marner, Karpizov, Pastrnak, Pettersson, Barzal, etc. No name in Particular outside of Kaprizov I absolutely love.

I understand all those are trades but there isn't really a guy in UFA or even a RFA you'd love to overpay outside of Matt Rempe.

6x6 would make people cry(me too) over Bennett.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

I think I would be ok with Bennett, if they move out someone first. Kasper is already playing 2C well, watching Danielson I'm confident he can at least be a 3C.

Good thing about having a ton of centers is you can just move guys to the wing.

 

[Snuggs]

I wonder if we could convince Kyle Connor to join us after next season when he hits free agency? Still firmly in his prime and we need some scoring on the left wing.

Maybe, I'd root for Winnigpeg to just hoist the cup making it easier for him to leave for a 'pay-day'.

Young dude, produces, I like him and know who is even and all, but I've barely watched him play.

 

[Henkka]

Bennett has been a pretty consistent 40 point guy in florida while missing 10-15 games every year. I think his production will be a clear step up from Copp and, as you mentioned, brings a lot more physical play. I can see why we'd bring him in. After that, have to agree about bringing in another mid level center.

We might not like Copp, Compher, and Rasmussen but of the three of them, we should have the bottom6 covered center spots covered. If we deal one or two of those guys out, then maybe going after a Gourde or Christian Dvorak would make sense.

Bennett's production does not happen without an elite playmaking winger.

If we have Kane, Raymond or Marner for him, then ok. But his production is mostly based on his individual play.

I just don’t see Bennett as such an upgrade talent-wise, to me he is a way more physical Copp. I just don’t think Red Wings need a third overpaid middle six center, especially with how Kasper played and Danielson also pushing for roster slot

Agree.

What I like in both Copp and Compher, they are fine long-term, because they can transfer on the wing on that point, when some kid Center takes the center slot. And, as former centers, they can mentor them for the center duty.

 

[SirloinUB]

I feel like we could find a spot for him.

I think he would be a huge get for this team. I don’t know why you’re so scared of paying players, our cap situation is fine.

Also he scores at a 65 pt per 82 pace for his career…. And had 40 goals last year.

I'm not scared of paying players, Im scared of paying them beyond their contributions.

Despite that "pace" he's been healthy the last 4 seasons and topped 55 points once.

He scored 40 goals shooting 20% - surrounding that? healthy years with 23 18 and 25 goals. That 40 and 73 points (helping drive up your career pace number) was the anomaly of his career.

He's a good player, I think he fits well but he ain't the solution at 9ish million.

 

[RedHawkDown]

If Bennett gets 9 million that is completely insane.

At 6-7 I'd be OK adding him because of the physical play but above 7 he isn't worth it at all.

 

[Frk It]

I'm not scared of paying players, Im scared of paying them beyond their contributions.

Despite that "pace" he's been healthy the last 4 seasons and topped 55 points once.

He scored 40 goals shooting 20% - surrounding that? healthy years with 23 18 and 25 goals. That 40 and 73 points (helping drive up your career pace number) was the anomaly of his career.

He's a good player, I think he fits well but he ain't the solution at 9ish million.

I mean my only concern with him is durability/injury history. I think you’re selling him short as a player. It’s not like last year was the only time he’s been close to a ppg guy, look at his 2020 and 2021 seasons.

Your stance on not wanting to overpay is reasonable, but if you want to hold out for only reasonable deals, you would probably (if not assuredly) strike out in free agency every single year.

 

[19 for president]

I mean my only concern with him is durability/injury history. I think you’re selling him short as a player. It’s not like last year was the only time he’s been close to a ppg guy, look at his 2020 and 2021 seasons.

Your stance on not wanting to overpay is reasonable, but if you want to hold out for only reasonable deals, you would probably (if not assuredly) strike out in free agency every single year.

I think the key is not to severely overpay for non elite forwards long term at this point in our rebuild. I think Boeser is a good player, but I feel like someone is going to pay him the 40 goal year which as of right now is absolutely an outlier. If we could get him in the 6 mil range I'd be totally down to add him, but not at the 8-9 mil range.

Getting to that PPG range through a close to 80 game season is really hard to do consistently. I mean Ray looked like he was hitting 90 for a majority of this year and now may not even finish PPG. I don't take 50 points in 50ish games to show someone will be a PPG guy for that reason. Maybe I take a chance if we find buyers for Copp/Tank/ Compher (at least 2), but I don't think he moves the bar enough to warrant the likely risk of overpaying.

This is true of Bennett too. He's another guy that if the cap didn't exist I'd love to add, but we'd probably be paying him long term on what may be 3/4 good health years.

I'm firmly a believer that you overpay for the mid guys early in the rebuild to help insulate and once your window is open, or you will blow your cap structure quickly. This is especially true in an off season like this one where you have a mass cap increase and see players get way overpaid.

Now if either of these guys is willing to take a 4 or 5 year deal I'm less adverse to overpaying a bit, I just think someone is going to offer them a Ray like deal.

Right now if I have to overpay its to land a top 4 LD. Our defense being inept is holding us back both offensively and defensively. I think making a trade may be our best option here, because Ed is going to probably get a hefty raise after next season.

 

[SirloinUB]

I mean my only concern with him is durability/injury history. I think you’re selling him short as a player. It’s not like last year was the only time he’s been close to a ppg guy, look at his 2020 and 2021 seasons.

Your stance on not wanting to overpay is reasonable, but if you want to hold out for only reasonable deals, you would probably (if not assuredly) strike out in free agency every single year.

He can get hot but he's only maintained that production for more than 70 games one time in his career. At least half his career he's played upwards up 70 games with production around 25 goals and sub 60 points.

I just think these names are in the tier that you regret overpaying. I'm okay overpaying for a guy like Marner (or connor in the future).

That's why I'm okay with continued patience through this rebuild. This team is on the cusp and adding a long term boat anchor contract would really hurt the trajectory.

And I do want upgrades I just think now is the time to be extremely stringent about overpaying. For star talent - go nuts. For these tier 3/4 kinda of guys you need to be responsible.

 

[Frk It]

He can get hot but he's only maintained that production for more than 70 games one time in his career. At least half his career he's played upwards up 70 games with production around 25 goals and sub 60 points.

I just think these names are in the tier that you regret overpaying. I'm okay overpaying for a guy like Marner (or connor in the future).

That's why I'm okay with continued patience through this rebuild. This team is on the cusp and adding a long term boat anchor contract would really hurt the trajectory.

And I do want upgrades I just think now is the time to be extremely stringent about overpaying. For star talent - go nuts. For these tier 3/4 kinda of guys you need to be responsible.

I don't know man, this is so akin to what we did after Lidstrom retired, it is giving me PTSD.

I am going to refrain from getting into bidding wars for guys that would make my team better like Ehrhoff, Wisnieswki, etc and hold out for a no-brainer guy like Suter... and now, oh shoot. I missed out on Suter... and I have gone 5 years without upgrading my team at all.

 

[SirloinUB]

I don't know man, this is so akin to what we did after Lidstrom retired, it is giving me PTSD.

I am going to refrain from getting into bidding wars for guys that would make my team better like Ehrhoff, Wisnieswki, etc and hold out for a no-brainer guy like Suter... and now, oh shoot. I missed out on Suter... and I have gone 5 years without upgrading my team at all.

The major difference there is our core post-lidstrom had an average age of 35ish. That team was clinging to its last bit of competitiveness and needed significant additions to extend the window.

Our current core has an average age of 23ish - arguably the competitive window hasn't even opened yet.

 

[SirloinUB]

If Bennett gets 9 million that is completely insane.

At 6-7 I'd be OK adding him because of the physical play but above 7 he isn't worth it at all.

Maybe time proves me overly concerned and all these guys sign some reasonable contracts but I think its going to be a very lucrative summer for the players.

When I look around the league I see an average of 22M cap space per team. The Brinks truck is going to be busy this summer.

 

[Frk It]

The major difference there is our core post-lidstrom had an average age of 35ish. That team was clinging to its last bit of competitiveness and need significant additions to extend the window.

Our current core has an average age of 23ish - arguably the competitive window hasn't even opened yet.

I'm just saying Holland had an approach to UFA very inline to what you are describing and it didn't work out too great for him.

I guess it comes down to how much of a problem you see it being if we strike out in free agency again this year. I would view it as a pretty big issue, where it seems like you are fine with plugging in kids and hoping for the best. I think the latter could be viable, but it depends on who they promote and move out. My main issue with going that route is you have a wide range of outcomes. I think if you bring in a Provorov or Boester you could still implement the promotion of some prospects but it would give you a much higher floor.

 

[Winger98]

The major difference there is our core post-lidstrom had an average age of 35ish. That team was clinging to its last bit of competitiveness and need significant additions to extend the window.

Our current core has an average age of 23ish - arguably the competitive window hasn't even opened yet.

to build off the core age a bit, I think this is another reason to not buy a guy like Boeser or Ehlers. Not knocking them, but they're 20-25 goal guys. Which would definitely help us. But what are we hoping Danielson and Lombardi can do? Mazur? Kasper next year? Maybe Buch?

I can get signing Marner, dude is on another level. But 20-25 goals feels like something we hope/need our kids to be able to start putting up in the near future. So give them that chance first. If they can't step into that hole, then we have to go get guys like Boeser/Ehlers. But if all of these kids fall short of expectations we have bigger fish to fry anyway.

 

[Frk It]

to build off the core age a bit, I think this is another reason to not buy a guy like Boeser or Ehlers. Not knocking them, but they're 20-25 goal guys. Which would definitely help us. But what are we hoping Danielson and Lombardi can do? Mazur? Kasper next year? Maybe Buch?

I can get signing Marner, dude is on another level. But 20-25 goals feels like something we hope/need our kids to be able to start putting up in the near future. So give them that chance first. If they can't step into that hole, then we have to go get guys like Boeser/Ehlers. But if all of these kids fall short of expectations we have bigger fish to fry anyway.

Was DeBrincat not a huge boon to this team? I don't think Boeser/Ehlers are too far off him as a player.

 

[SirloinUB]

I'm just saying Holland had an approach to UFA very inline to what you are describing and it didn't work out too great for him.

I guess it comes down to how much of a problem you see it being if we strike out in free agency again this year. I would view it as a pretty big issue, where it seems like you are fine with plugging in kids and hoping for the best. I think the latter could be viable, but it depends on who they promote and move out. My main issue with going that route is you have a wide range of outcomes. I think if you bring in a Provorov or Boester you could still implement the promotion of some prospects but it would give you a much higher floor.

I do agree they raise the floor. Im not a complete hater of their games haha.

I guess we'll see how the contracts all play out, because that is my concern. Friedman is reporting that Boeser wants 8x8 from the canucks. On the open market it is pretty conceivable that he gets 9.5x7. I think that hurts the ceiling as much as it helps the floor.

to build off the core age a bit, I think this is another reason to not buy a guy like Boeser or Ehlers. Not knocking them, but they're 20-25 goal guys. Which would definitely help us. But what are we hoping Danielson and Lombardi can do? Mazur? Kasper next year? Maybe Buch?

I can get signing Marner, dude is on another level. But 20-25 goals feels like something we hope/need our kids to be able to start putting up in the near future. So give them that chance first. If they can't step into that hole, then we have to go get guys like Boeser/Ehlers. But if all of these kids fall short of expectations we have bigger fish to fry anyway.

And its not like we'd have these guys for their primes. We'd get the very tail end of it while paying them these big tickets until they're 35.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I'm just saying Holland had an approach to UFA very inline to what you are describing and it didn't work out too great for him.

I guess it comes down to how much of a problem you see it being if we strike out in free agency again this year. I would view it as a pretty big issue, where it seems like you are fine with plugging in kids and hoping for the best. I think the latter could be viable, but it depends on who they promote and move out. My main issue with going that route is you have a wide range of outcomes. I think if you bring in a Provorov or Boester you could still implement the promotion of some prospects but it would give you a much higher floor.

Am I crazy in thinking that striking out in free agency is the most likely outcome by a country mile? At this point I am just expecting it. When I see the list of available UFAs there are only about 5 to 7 guys I would ever want on our roster, period. I think we get zero help from the UFA market this summer. I am not sure the following summer will be much different when you consider how many good players have already sold free-agent years.

What I can't decide is how I expect the increased cap to trickle down through a roster. My hunch is that the best available players still end up seeing the lion's share of it.

 

[jkutswings]

Am I crazy in thinking that striking out in free agency is the most likely outcome by a country mile? At this point I am just expecting it. When I see the list of available UFAs there are only about 5 to 7 guys I would ever want on our roster, period. I think we get zero help from the UFA market this summer. I am not sure the following summer will be much different when you consider how many good players have already sold free-agent years.

What I can't decide is how I expect the increased cap to trickle down through a roster. My hunch is that the best available players still end up seeing the lion's share of it.

In general, I think the smartest possible expectation for free agency is disappointment. Other than a small handful of good players, it's an annual ritual of either grossly overpaying mediocre talent or coming away empty handed. Really, I'd be fine if Detroit abandoned it altogether until they just needed a cherry on top and could make one splash without caring about the price tag.

Once in awhile you get lucky. Luck is not a strategy, so if you need an actual infusion of talent, plan to swing a trade (and plan to part with significant resources).

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

In general, I think the smartest possible expectation for free agency is disappointment. Other than a small handful of good players, it's an annual ritual of either grossly overpaying mediocre talent or coming away empty handed. Really, I'd be fine if Detroit abandoned it altogether until they just needed a cherry on top and could make one splash without caring about the price tag.

Once in awhile you get lucky. Luck is not a strategy, so if you need an actual infusion of talent, plan to swing a trade (and plan to part with significant resources).

You won't be able to avoid free agency all together, but I do agree that we should not feel compelled to spend large sums in it or sign guys just because they are the best of what is available. If we sign nothing consequential and inject a lot of youth onto the roster I will be fine with it, even if it results in us taking a step backwards.

 

[Winger98]

Was DeBrincat not a huge boon to this team? I don't think Boeser/Ehlers are too far off him as a player.

He was, and if we didn't have him I'd push for Ehlers. But we do have him and I would rather see if the kids can fill the holes we'd be dropping Ehlers/Boeser into.

I think we have the luxury up front of only targeting guys like Marner in free agency.

 

[Gniwder]

Knies could be the guy out in Toronto if they decide to re-sign Marner.

If they re-sign Marner for 13.5M and Tavares for 9, that gives them 4.5M to fill 6 roster spots. Knies could be a good offer sheet option at around 6.5M, or just try to trade for his rights beforehand.

It all depends on what happens in the playoffs. Another disappointment, there will be a shakeup and Marner is gone. They make a deep run? I can see Marner re-signing.

Knies is still on his ELC, he's only 22 which is kinda amazing, I thought he was older for some reason. That means the WIngs could offer up a one year bridge deal at $4,580,917 so that the compensation is only a 2nd round pick. $6.5M is 1st and 3rd, which I probably would still do.

I would venture to guess that they keep Knies and let Tavares walk unless he signs for a HUGE discount. Tavares is from Ontario, so he might...

 

[Gniwder]

What a bizarre evaluation. On one hand you acknowledge they were rebuilding through the draft and on the other you grumble about “8 years” as if the goal was to make playoffs for all 8 years.

What were your expectations for this team 3 8 years ago?

when seider and Raymond were rookies and sophomores, ASP/Kasper/Danielson were undrafted, Ed was in his D + 1/2 seasons, al jo was a developing 2nd rounder, Zadina Berggren and Rasmussen were the senior prospect’s of note, no Debrincat and guys like Mantha/Bert were the best assets to work with behind Larkin, what were your expectations?

The goal was to be bad for 5ish years drafting inside the top 10 and develop those pieces slowly improving.

Also, what are you talking about the drafting has been bad? No it hasn’t. The drafting has been very good.

They’ve drafted developed:
- point/game two way 1st line winger
- 50 point 1st pair D
- a 2/3 Dman than can carry a 2nd pair
- a good top 6 winger/ possible 2nd line center
- a mobile two way 4/5 dman.
- an additional highly regard prospect poop with what, 9ish guys that have a shot to be useful nhl player on the way

YOU DON'T THINK 8 YEARS IS ENOUGH?

Seriously, we're setting NHL records. The only team worse is the current Sabres. No NHL GM gets a leash that long.

 

[RabidBadger]

I feel like I need to do a mercy killing of the "sign Marner" talk. He is not coming here. If it's about money with him ,Toronto can let Tavares walk and have ample ca$h to sign him. If it's about being frustrated with lack of playoff success with him, why would he want to come to a team that doesn't even make the playoffs?

And I can tell you ALL of you will be apoplectic if he signs here getting one of the highest salaries in the NHL and continues being a playoff dud. I happened to peruse the Leaf boards and it seems like most of the fans are ready to let him walk.

 

[SirloinUB]

YOU DON'T THINK 8 YEARS IS ENOUGH?

Seriously, we're setting NHL records. The only team worse is the current Sabres. No NHL GM gets a leash that long.

YOU DIDNT ANSWER MY QUESTION?

Seriously, what were your expectations years 1-6 of yzerman being GM?