Your preference for Nate Danielson next season?

[FriendlyGhost92]

Again, our center depth with Larkin, Kasper, Danielson and Copp would be absurd. If he wants to win, and this is Stevie f***in' Yzerman we are talking about, I think there's a good chance him and McLellan decide that Nate plays in Detroit this season.

You're right. This is Steve f***in' Yzerman we are talking about... The guy who has literally said multiple times that he'd rather have a developing young prospect play top minutes in GR than bottom minutes in Detroit.

 

[deca guard]

griffs for sure as 1C learning in all situations

 

[Run the Jewels]

Albert took off on the second pair when given a chance, are you giving Lalonde credit for that, too?

The suggestion is they must play in the AHL to develop. We have two recent examples to refute that.

 

[Run the Jewels]

You're right. This is Steve f***in' Yzerman we are talking about... The guy who has literally said multiple times that he'd rather have a developing young prospect play top minutes in GR than bottom minutes in Detroit.

I dunno man, his handling of actual, legit prospects looks pretty good:

Seider
Raymond
Edvinsson
Kasper
Johansson

The fact Söderblom and Berggren can't really lock down a spot on a scoring line says something about something. If he keeps Danielson in GR, does anyone really think he's going to magically develop into a scoring line center?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I dunno man, his handling of actual, legit prospects looks pretty good:

Seider
Raymond
Edvinsson
Kasper
Johansson

The fact Söderblom and Berggren can't really lock down a spot on a scoring line says something about something. If he keeps Danielson in GR, does anyone really think he's going to magically develop into a scoring line center?

Seider - Immediately stepped into 1D role
Raymond - Immediately stepped into top line role
Edvinsson - Immediately stepped into Top 4 role
Kasper - They initially tried sending him down because they didn't want him in a bottom 6 role. They eventually had to and Newsy f***ed with him. Then Yzerman f***ed with Newsy.
AlJo - Is not a prospect on the level of any of the aforementioned guys, and only was thrown onto the third pairing when he was no longer waiver exempt. Yzerman literally went on record and said he wouldn't make it through waivers so they would have to make room for him.

Did you really try to use Edvinsson as an example? He was notoriously held out of our shitty defense and kept on Top pairing minutes in GR far longer than he needed to be.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Seider - Immediately stepped into 1D role
Raymond - Immediately stepped into top line role
Edvinsson - Immediately stepped into Top 4 role
Kasper - They initially tried sending him down because they didn't want him in a bottom 6 role. They eventually had to and Newsy f***ed with him. Then Yzerman f***ed with Newsy.
AlJo - Is not a prospect on the level of any of the aforementioned guys, and only was thrown onto the third pairing when he was no longer waiver exempt. Yzerman literally went on record and said he wouldn't make it through waivers so they would have to make room for him.

Did you really try to use Edvinsson as an example? He was notoriously held out of our shitty defense and kept on Top pairing minutes in GR far longer than he needed to be.

Ed has been sheltered, but I think those days are over. We legit signed Chiarot so that Ed wasn't immediately put into the Mo Seider role of facing the toughest competition in the league.

 

[Frk It]

If he keeps Danielson in GR, does anyone really think he's going to magically develop into a scoring line center?

Do you think spending this season mostly in GR is going to change the end result of what Danielson turns into as opposed to Detroit?

 

[Winger98]

The suggestion is they must play in the AHL to develop. We have two recent examples to refute that.

Eh, I think I was responding to a post about Lalonde burying Kasper on the 4th line and how it was different from how Yzerman typically likes to bring his prospects up. And I said Lalonde did bury Kasper there, but Lalonde also got fired.

I also think that McLellan has seemed way more okay with putting kids out there in bigger roles. Whatever kids are in the lineup, I don't think McLellan will hesitate the way Lalonde did to move them up the lineup.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Ed has been sheltered, but I think those days are over. We legit signed Chiarot so that Ed wasn't immediately put into the Mo Seider role of facing the toughest competition in the league.

Annnndddd yet when he came up full time he was soon put on Seider's pairing lol.

The only reason he got pulled from it is because the other 35 minutes of hockey our defense was ass.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Do you think spending this season mostly in GR is going to change the end result of what Danielson turns into as opposed to Detroit?

A. I think ND is who he is and his development matches his scouting report.
B. I think ND will give Detroit absurd depth at center, which will make Detroit better.
C. If Nate has any additional offensive capabilities, I think McLellan is more likely to coax them out of ND.

I am skeptical on what purpose GR would serve in further developing ND.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Annnndddd yet when he came up full time he was soon put on Seider's pairing lol.

The only reason he got pulled from it is because the other 35 minutes of hockey our defense was ass.

Yes...he has quickly developed, unlike the vast majority of the D-men we have drafted over the past 25 years. Fun fact: we once traded a first round draft pick to acquire Kyle Quincey, who was previously waived by the organization.

 

[Frk It]

A. I think ND is who he is and his development matches his scouting report.
B. I think ND will give Detroit absurd depth at center, which will make Detroit better.
C. If Nate has any additional offensive capabilities, I think McLellan is more likely to coax them out of ND.

I am skeptical on what purpose GR would serve in further developing ND.

I am usually in favor of the scenario where the prospect can play the most hockey, but I can see your point.

I would disagree with the notion that he has nothing to gain from playing in GR. He hasn't shown he can be dominant offensively at that level, and if he starts next year as the #1C with MBN on his wing that would be a pretty good opportunity for him to show that. He could also get some confidence going for a call-up later in the season, potentially. I think there is some value in that.

I do think he could gain some things from getting reps at the NHL level and guidance from McLellan. But he hasn't dominated the AHL enough to suggest that is the only route for him that would be viable... at least not in my opinion.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I hope GR changes their system up a bit this year. The team leader having 47 points has got to be evidence that they weren't playing offensively enough. Maybe that would help Danielson be a little more productive.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Yes...he has quickly developed, unlike the vast majority of the D-men we have drafted over the past 25 years. Fun fact: we once traded a first round draft pick to acquire Kyle Quincey, who was previously waived by the organization.

Yes. Top 10 pick Simon Edvinsson was "Quickly developed" to join the club in his D+4.

It definitely wasn't that the club sat on him and overcooked him in the minors like they've been doing for 25 years.

 

[jkutswings]

I am usually in favor of the scenario where the prospect can play the most hockey, but I can see your point.

I would disagree with the notion that he has nothing to gain from playing in GR. He hasn't shown he can be dominant offensively at that level, and if he starts next year as the #1C with MBN on his wing that would be a pretty good opportunity for him to show that. He could also get some confidence going for a call-up later in the season, potentially. I think there is some value in that.

I do think he could gain some things from getting reps at the NHL level and guidance from McLellan. But he hasn't dominated the AHL enough to suggest that is the only route for him that would be viable... at least not in my opinion.

A logical point, but lately I'm skeptical about how effective Grand Rapids is at developing offense in our prospects. If Nate has a good summer and camp, I'd be fine with him making the big club straight away and learning on the wing until he's ready for center in the NHL.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Yes. Top 10 pick Simon Edvinsson was "Quickly developed" to join the club in his D+4.

It definitely wasn't that the club sat on him and overcooked him in the minors like they've been doing for 25 years.

It was actually his D+3 season. Not sure what your point is, but I get that you have strong feelings. D-men and goalies take a long time to develop, and while you may not like it, Chiarot was signed in order to not place Ed in a role where he would be in over his head, which would hurt his development.

Is your point that keeping Danielson in Grand Rapids for his D+2 season going to suddenly turn him into a PPG forward? Again, I am not entirely sure what you are arguing here.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It was actually his D+3 season. Not sure what your point is, but I get that you have strong feelings. D-men and goalies take a long time to develop, and while you may not like it, Chiarot was signed in order to not place Ed in a role where he would be in over his head, which would hurt his development.

Is your point that keeping Danielson in Grand Rapids for his D+2 season going to suddenly turn him into a PPG forward? Again, I am not entirely sure what you are arguing here.

Oh. Edvinsson was a full time NHLer in his D+3? I must have missed that...

What I was arguing is very clear. Yzerman has said numerous times that he would rather developing players get top line minutes in GR than bottom line minutes in Detroit. I'm not sure how many more times you need to hear that. This is not my opinion. This is what Yzerman has said.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Oh. Edvinsson was a full time NHLer in his D+3? I must have missed that...

What I was arguing is very clear. Yzerman has said numerous times that he would rather developing players get top line minutes in GR than bottom line minutes in Detroit. I'm not sure how many more times you need to hear that. This is not my opinion. This is what Yzerman has said.

Yeah, Ed played his D+1 season in Europe. My bad.

We'll see what happens with Danielson. Based on Yzerman's previous comments you would expect him to play in GR, but things may be different with Todd, whom Yzerman clearly respects. I don't think he'd overrule McLellan if he says ND can be a contributor in Detroit and help the team make the playoffs this year. Yzerman does not strike me as that sort of meddler, despite what he may say to the media.

 

[SirloinUB]

As others have said, Its ultimately coming down to how he plays in training camp.

I don't think either option is a bad one.

 

[Retire91]

That's certainly a take, but I don't see Yzerman or McLellan being willing to sacrifice the season.

I am just meaning, at some point you have to go all in with your core, if we are still baind-aid-ing this season because our core is not cutting then we are in trouble. We are quickly crossing the threshold of the core needing NHL experience vs continuing to rotate plugs into the roster to shelter them. There is no reason we can't have Danielson be a top 6 winger since Kasper is filling out 2C. If Danielson starts out cold we still need to just ride it until he finds his NHL legs. If he is struggling with NHL physically that is a different story. If coach and GM think he is not developing that is also a different story.

In the case where he is not putting up numbers, but he is developing we need to keep him in, otherwise by that logic we would have missed out on a lot of Kasper's development in the NHL which would have likely held him back.

 

[Gniwder]

I thought the same too. This past season, starting from their own end, I regularly noticed a lack of effective first passes out of the defensive zone and it seemed like he didn't want the defense to be active, leaving the forwards alone a lot of the time

Team played too passive in transition and it reminded me a bit of Newsy's system

So I had to look it up... yeah, Watson peaked at 6 goals in the OHL, washed out of the AHL and went ECHL. Coaching the way he played. Honestly, I'd rather have coaches that are analysts that never played the game than guys that played lower level shell hockey that want to coach that system. Watson (ECHL defenseman), Fester (college goalie), and Blash (college goalie) Then you goy Draps as head scout. It's like Stevie is overcompensating for being all offense in his younger days.

FFS, how about some offense?

Kasper stepped into the 2C role and has never looked back. Truly bizarre take to suggest that Kasper's development was managed poorly.

Kasper hasn't gotten good coaching until Todd got hired. Are you seriously gonna give Watson or Fester any credit for his development? He's succeeded in spite of poor management. Same with Ray in the SHL.

I'd actually be nice if the lower level coaches (ECHL, SHL, AHL) recognized talent and utilized it properly. Seems like it happens with the Dmen (Mo, Ed, ASP), but not with the forwards. Shell hockey coaches don't seem to realize you have to outscore the other team to win. I think they're all morons.

 

[Henkka]

Seider - Immediately stepped into 1D role
Raymond - Immediately stepped into top line role
Edvinsson - Immediately stepped into Top 4 role
Kasper - They initially tried sending him down because they didn't want him in a bottom 6 role. They eventually had to and Newsy f***ed with him. Then Yzerman f***ed with Newsy.
AlJo - Is not a prospect on the level of any of the aforementioned guys, and only was thrown onto the third pairing when he was no longer waiver exempt.

Seider had 3-year pro experience (DEL, AHL, SHL)
Raymond had 2,5-year pro experience (SHL)
Edvinsson had 3-year pro experience (1.5y at SHL, 1.5y at AHL)
Kasper had 3,5-year pro experience (2,5y SHL, 1y AHL)
Johansson had 5-year pro experience (3y SHL, 2y AHL

Nate Danielson has 1-year of pro experience.

And if you are not dominating even at the lower level, you'll need more pro experience (for NHL spot). 2,5 years (Raymond) has been the Yzerman "minimum".

Pro experience is the thing.

 

[bearball]

Yeah, ND is 20 years old coming off of his first pro season. There is no rush with him.

Either he jumps off the page at training camp and during pre-season, and earns a spot. Or he doesn't quite do enough and lands as the 1C at GR. Both options have plus and minus points and if he ends up on the pro roster then great, but I don't think there will be much to read into it if he ends up in GR other than we want more pro minutes in his legs.

 

[Retire91]

Those players came aboard the post holland era where the team had a talent void. Not an environment conducive to development. European players often stay a few years in their pro's league because they can actually play in their big league.

The team has reached a level of talent where development while getting NHL ice time are possible. Linemates can make up for growth moments. If the player is not "physically" ready that is another thing. Larkin came aboard in such a circumstance. We don't have to hold kids down, just to hold them down. Holland set that precedent of tie going to the vet and also having an awful draft run. It continued by necessity due to the situation he left the team in. Its no longer necessary for its own sake. I don't mind watching him develop in GR if NHL level is out of his reach and it shows. That is different. But let's stop being a culture of everyone needs to bake 3-5 years.

There are so many complaints about veteran plugs, here we have someone who is showing a high ceiling high floor level of talent.

 

[Frk It]

Those players came aboard the post holland era where the team had a talent void. Not an environment conducive to development. European players often stay a few years in their pro's league because they can actually play in their big league.

The team has reached a level of talent where development while getting NHL ice time are possible. Linemates can make up for growth moments. If the player is not "physically" ready that is another thing. Larkin came aboard in such a circumstance. We don't have to hold kids down, just to hold them down. Holland set that precedent of tie going to the vet and also having an awful draft run. It continued by necessity due to the situation he left the team in. Its no longer necessary for its own sake. I don't mind watching him develop in GR if NHL level is out of his reach and it shows. That is different. But let's stop being a culture of everyone needs to bake 3-5 years.

How about we ask if the player is forcing the issue?

Danielson put up .54 PPG in the AHL last year. Why are we talking about him being overbaked? He needs to be more dominant in the AHL before we can act like he is unjustly being kept there.

The only guys I can really see a case for being overbaked are definitely Edvinsson and then maybe Berggren/Johansson?

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's really a thing. Most of the time the guys who stay in the AHL for a long period of time are just not good enough or have a significant flaw they need to work on.