GDT: Your New Jersey Devils (28-17-6, 62 Pts) @ Philadelphia Flyers (22-22-6, 50 Pts), 7 PM, MSGSN

[Triumph]

Yes the team is playing poorly, but if you read what I'm saying that isn't what I'm getting at, so it seems maybe you are the one that is confused. What I'm getting at is that the team isn't as good or deep as advertised. Which has been the story for years now. And not everyone has the patience to just take that in stride year in and year out.

You don't have the patience. You demand winning at all costs. But leaving that aside, you have said on multiple occasions that you don't think the team is as good or deep 'as advertised', whatever that means. It's again a weird perception game where it doesn't matter how good the team actually is, or how good the players are on it. It matters if there is somehow a mismatch between the two. And actually looking at the team, trying to evaluate the problems, well that's for suckers. It's just better to complain about the last 10 years in the context of what is looking like the Devils' third playoff berth since 2012.

Because what I'm talking about is not about any one single player or pairing, much less a 21 year old with under 200 games played.

No, because that would be talking about the team, which you can't evaluate, versus something nebulous like 'expectations' which you can with word puzzles and arguments.

Again this is missing the point. Lack of depth and wildly inconsistent finishing ability is going to matter when April rolls around (we have no idea if whatever trade deadline moves Fitz makes will pan out). Yes yes I know you don't "expect" the team to continue floundering on offense...just like you didn't expect what happened last year to happen, or two years before that, or the year before that one...

The Devils are losing lots of 1 goal games, they are losing way more than I would expect in OT, and they've left some points on the table in regulation late. These latter two things do not matter at all in the playoffs - OT is the same as regulation, and the game state of the final 5 minutes of a tied game in the regular season doesn't exist in the playoffs either. It's possible these things will cost them a playoff spot, but it's not looking likely.

And no I wouldn't expect for them to suffer horrible injuries like last season, nor three years ago when both of their starting goalies were out for most of the season and they used 7 netminders, nor the year before that when their goalie retired after the team's first practice - yeah, these are kind of things out of the range of expectations.

 

[guitarguyvic]

And the entire gambling industry. Who are the contenders in the east, I’d like to hear?

It’s slim pickings in the East in my opinion. I’d say Carolina, yeah their goaltenders are questionable but they haven’t shown to be an issue in the regular season so far. Tampa’s roster looks like a contender to me, despite them underachieving in the regular season so far.

But if I had to put money down it would be a west team. Dallas, Edmonton, and if I had to pick just one it would be Vegas…but they’re all better than what the East has to offer, IMO.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Or you could say it’s a civil war between venters and posters with a constant need to police others, it’s all a matter of perspective. It’s fine to be optimistic but it’s stupid when people try to win the narrative and look for gotchas from other fans, I swear some of you (not you specifically) are more intent on winning the thoughts and feelings war than this team is on getting out of its malaise.

Yes there are drive by doomers and chronic complainers but not every single complaint or complainer fits neatly in that box and there’s no point even engaging those people to begin with. The pollyannas who never see anything wrong can be just as bad the other way, especially since it’s not usually the doomers picking fights with everyone else here.

For sure, there's stirrers on both sides. Hence why I need to simply put this out there as a message rather than a direct response. I don't envy your positions as mods, which is why I'm not one to begin with.

I just get bothered by the lack of perspective when it comes to losses. It instead gets labeled that this team isn't actually good or as good as was thought. And any time there is a mention of anything that could be a reason for a loss, it's considered an excuse. Nevermind missing two very important players that will make a difference in the final games of the season/playoffs like Nico or Markstrom and trotting out a bottom 6 that is pretty ugly to look at.

Now they didn't play well in the first at all, and it's what bit them in the ass. That's something they should be able to control next time. Philly's advanced numbers are actually solid, but we should be able to control play better against them and get better opportunities on their weaker goaltending if we're crisper. If they fall to Philly for a 3rd time tomorrow, I'll be pissed.

 

[guitarguyvic]

You don't have the patience. You demand winning at all costs. But leaving that aside, you have said on multiple occasions that you don't think the team is as good or deep 'as advertised', whatever that means. It's again a weird perception game where it doesn't matter how good the team actually is, or how good the players are on it. It matters if there is somehow a mismatch between the two. And actually looking at the team, trying to evaluate the problems, well that's for suckers. It's just better to complain about the last 10 years in the context of what is looking like the Devils' third playoff berth since 2012.



No, because that would be talking about the team, which you can't evaluate, versus something nebulous like 'expectations' which you can with word puzzles and arguments.



The Devils are losing lots of 1 goal games, they are losing way more than I would expect in OT, and they've left some points on the table in regulation late. These latter two things do not matter at all in the playoffs - OT is the same as regulation, and the game state of the final 5 minutes of a tied game in the regular season doesn't exist in the playoffs either. It's possible these things will cost them a playoff spot, but it's not looking likely.

And no I wouldn't expect for them to suffer horrible injuries like last season, nor three years ago when both of their starting goalies were out for most of the season and they used 7 netminders, nor the year before that when their goalie retired after the team's first practice - yeah, these are kind of things out of the range of expectations.

Give me a break, I engage plenty as far as evaluations of the team. You just don’t like or agree with what I have to say. Which is fine, but then you imply yours as the only right answer with the constant dismissiveness and condescension.You always think you’re the smartest person in the room. And this is what I mean. I don’t bring these things up because I want to pat myself on the back, I do it because maybe eventually it will get you to realize that maybe you shouldn’t be so arrogant when your prognostications haven’t panned out for literally years. Yes yes I know, you have your laundry list of “unexpected” variables…which I can offer retorts for but then you’ll just dismiss them condescendingly and round and round we go.

Have you ever stopped to think that one of the reasons I don’t engage in more detail is because it’s a pointless exercise with you guys? You don’t want to give even the slightest credence to anything that challenges your perspective.

As far as what you cite with the losses…I think you know darn well that my perspective goes beyond the final score of each individual game and is also about how they play the game regardless of the outcome…of course you will speak for me and claim that’s not true. Again, pointless exercise.

 

[Triumph]

Give me a break, I engage plenty as far as evaluations of the team. You just don’t like or agree with what I have to say. Which is fine, but then you imply yours as the only right answer with the constant dismissiveness and condescension.You always think you’re the smartest person in the room. And this is what I mean. I don’t bring these things up because I want to pat myself on the back, I do it because maybe eventually it will get you to realize that maybe you shouldn’t be so arrogant when your prognostications haven’t panned out for literally years. Yes yes I know, you have your laundry list of “unexpected” variables…which I can offer retorts for but then you’ll just dismiss them condescendingly and round and round we go.

Lol give me a break. What prognostications? In 2021 I said the Devils should compete for a playoff spot. They finished near worst in the league, mostly due to injuries and goaltending - they were an average offense with poor defense and bad goaltending. Hughes and Hamilton missed considerable time, both goalies got hurt, and that was it. In 2023 I thought the team was a playoff team, they got hurt again, the goalies were bad again, and the coaching scheme fell apart. I think this year's team is a playoff team with the ability to win the Stanley Cup. I thought they'd be closer to the top of the division, but again, they've lost some points at the margin I wouldn't've expected - they've been far worse 3 on 3 than I thought they would be.

So no, it didn't occur to me that you were bringing up your own predictive accomplishments to try to humble me. I didn't know that it was out of humility that you insisted on bringing them up, I underestimated your conscientiousness.

Have you ever stopped to think that one of the reasons I don’t engage in more detail is because it’s a pointless exercise with you guys?

I mean, not in those terms, but obviously seeing how you have walked away from almost any argument in the past that isn't on your terms (words only, vibes only), and don't have any basis besides pointing at thing and saying bad, yes it's occurred to me.

 

[Better Call Sal]

I had to tune out halfway through the 3rd period, what were the final d-pairings after Keefe split up Luke and Pesce?

 

[guitarguyvic]

Lol give me a break. What prognostications? In 2021 I said the Devils should compete for a playoff spot. They finished near worst in the league, mostly due to injuries and goaltending - they were an average offense with poor defense and bad goaltending. Hughes and Hamilton missed considerable time, both goalies got hurt, and that was it. In 2023 I thought the team was a playoff team, they got hurt again, the goalies were bad again, and the coaching scheme fell apart. I think this year's team is a playoff team with the ability to win the Stanley Cup. I thought they'd be closer to the top of the division, but again, they've lost some points at the margin I wouldn't've expected - they've been far worse 3 on 3 than I thought they would be.

So no, it didn't occur to me that you were bringing up your own predictive accomplishments to try to humble me. I didn't know that it was out of humility that you insisted on bringing them up, I underestimated your conscientiousness.

My own predictive accomplishments? lol that’s not even what’s happening. It’s a total misrepresentation. Routinely dismissing anyone who has less confidence in the success of this team or individual players compared to the status quo…in combination with the status quo repeatedly not panning out…that’s what routinely happens here and that’s what I bring up. Perhaps you don’t see the subtle difference but that’s on you.

I mean, not in those terms, but obviously seeing how you have walked away from almost any argument in the past that isn't on your terms (words only, vibes only), and don't have any basis besides pointing at thing and saying bad, yes it's occurred to me.

Saying it has no basis and is just based on vibes is simply a flat out lie. For example, you mean to tell me that those of us expressing doubt about the depth of this team before the season started were just doing it based on vibes? There was no discussion about the specific players and why those doubts were there? Please. This is just ridiculous. What you really mean is that the criteria used to evaluate is not fully aligned with yours, therefore, it is not worthy of consideration or credible.

It’s also absurd to claim that me walking away from these discussions is some kind of evidence of anything other than someone eventually has to walk away from these circular back and forths. To say nothing of the fact that you have “walked away” just as frequently as I have, and other times the discussion is forced closed by mods because it always devolves.

 

[njdevils1982]

I had to tune out halfway through the 3rd period, what were the final d-pairings after Keefe split up Luke and Pesce?

ShiftChart - Hockey Shift Data Visualization

 

[Better Call Sal]

ShiftChart - Hockey Shift Data Visualization

Thank you, sir. So Siegs-Dougie, Luke-Kovacevic, Pesce-Dillon?

Wonder if those stick for a bit. Those who want to see Kovacevic with another partner will be getting their wish.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

i think i’d rather see Luke and Dougie get hamfisted into the offensive zone as much as possible while the other four make up two defensively capable pairings, but any shake up is welcome at this point.

 

[Triumph]

My own predictive accomplishments? lol that’s not even what’s happening. It’s a total misrepresentation. Routinely dismissing anyone who has less confidence in the success of this team or individual players compared to the status quo…in combination with the status quo repeatedly not panning out…that’s what routinely happens here and that’s what I bring up. Perhaps you don’t see the subtle difference but that’s on you.

The individual players have become far better than you ever could have imagined. Let's go back, shall we?

"Bratt is quickly rising in my “unproven young player whose contribution is highly over-rated by the fans” rankings." That's you on October 22, 2021.

"This entire board is constantly pumping the tires of Nico, Bratt, et al and at each and every turn they have failed to produce anything substantive when it’s needed." That's you on November 3, 2021.

"I don’t agree, we are weak all across the board. We have no proven offensive threats besides (maybe) Bratt. Our goaltender is looking weaker and more injury prone every season. Our organizational culture is trash."

There's you in December 2021.

Here's what you said about Nico in February 2022:

"But I haven't witnessed the kind of big progression in his individual game compared to his first couple of seasons playing with Hall that would lead me to believe that given the opportunity to play with the same caliber of player again we are going to see an improvement in production that exceeds what Travis was able to do with those same caliber of wingers. At least with someone like Jack, even though I'm not comfortable labeling him a superstar at this juncture, you can at least see the raw skill on display. That's not the case with Nico, at all."

You compared him unfavorably to Travis Zajac, a player who Nico is so clearly better than at this stage that it doesn't even merit mentioning.

Here's what I said: "I think these Hischier-Zajac comparisons will look absurd if prime Hischier ever gets a linemate who is as good as Parise, Kovalchuk, or 2014 Jagr was." Huh, that's weird, he didn't even need a linemate that good to make it look stupid, he crushed with Tatar and Mercer/Zetterlund in 2022-23. I undersold him.

I'll stop here, we already know the score on Jack Hughes. So yeah, I don't get everything right, as you've so humbly pointed out. I can't see the future and I can't predict catastrophic injuries. The stars have not been the issue with this team, the power play is doing incredible. The problem with the offense is in the lower lines. The Devils have 8 players with 10 or more goals, but then they have only one player with between 5 and 10.

Saying it has no basis and is just based on vibes is simply a flat out lie. For example, you mean to tell me that those of us expressing doubt about the depth of this team before the season started were just doing it based on vibes? There was no discussion about the specific players and why those doubts were there? Please. This is just ridiculous. What you really mean is that the criteria used to evaluate is not fully aligned with yours, therefore, it is not worthy of consideration or credible.

We're talking past one another. Obviously the depth was an issue, and I suspect I can find myself saying the same thing in the summer. I just don't think it's as big an issue as you seem to think it is, as you just relentlessly gnawing against any possible success this team might have. Going back through these posts it's just funny to see the goalposts shift as the team becomes good and the players on it demonstrate the potential they so obviously had back then.

 

[NjDevsRR]

 

[guitarguyvic]

The individual players have become far better than you ever could have imagined. Let's go back, shall we?

"Bratt is quickly rising in my “unproven young player whose contribution is highly over-rated by the fans” rankings." That's you on October 22, 2021.

Here we go. You went out of your way to dig up old posts with zero context. Cute little game. This statement was not untrue on 10/22/2021. I'm not making any predictions about what Bratt will or won't become.

"This entire board is constantly pumping the tires of Nico, Bratt, et al and at each and every turn they have failed to produce anything substantive when it’s needed." That's you on November 3, 2021.

This statement was true as of November 3, 2021. I am not making any predictions of what the players will or won't become.

"I don’t agree, we are weak all across the board. We have no proven offensive threats besides (maybe) Bratt. Our goaltender is looking weaker and more injury prone every season. Our organizational culture is trash."

There's you in December 2021.

This statement was true as of December 2021.

Here's what you said about Nico in February 2022:

"But I haven't witnessed the kind of big progression in his individual game compared to his first couple of seasons playing with Hall that would lead me to believe that given the opportunity to play with the same caliber of player again we are going to see an improvement in production that exceeds what Travis was able to do with those same caliber of wingers. At least with someone like Jack, even though I'm not comfortable labeling him a superstar at this juncture, you can at least see the raw skill on display. That's not the case with Nico, at all."

You compared him unfavorably to Travis Zajac, a player who Nico is so clearly better than at this stage that it doesn't even merit mentioning.

Here's what I said: "I think these Hischier-Zajac comparisons will look absurd if prime Hischier ever gets a linemate who is as good as Parise, Kovalchuk, or 2014 Jagr was." Huh, that's weird, he didn't even need a linemate that good to make it look stupid, he crushed with Tatar and Mercer/Zetterlund in 2022-23. I undersold him.

OK? Your prediction on this one panned out. I can admit when mine don't, that's fine.

I'll stop here, we already know the score on Jack Hughes. So yeah, I don't get everything right, as you've so humbly pointed out. I can't see the future and I can't predict catastrophic injuries.

You still don't get it. I don't care that you don't get everything right, and I'm certainly not saying that I do get everything right. If you don't understand what the frustration is, I can't keep repeating it, I've already spelled it out more than enough.

The stars have not been the issue with this team, the power play is doing incredible. The problem with the offense is in the lower lines. The Devils have 8 players with 10 or more goals, but then they have only one player with between 5 and 10.

Agree and disagree. Timo is supposed to be a star and he isn't living up to the billing. Bratt also has a tendency to go huge amounts of games where he's not scoring. This also isn't the first time we see this core go through large spells of being unable to finish on the glorious chances they create. The lack of scoring from the lower lines is also a problem.

Don't act like you don't shift your positions too...it wasn't even two weeks ago that you were saying the bottom six was fine.

We're talking past one another. Obviously the depth was an issue, and I suspect I can find myself saying the same thing in the summer. I just don't think it's as big an issue as you seem to think it is, as you just relentlessly gnawing against any possible success this team might have. Going back through these posts it's just funny to see the goalposts shift as the team becomes good and the players on it demonstrate the potential they so obviously had back then.

Yes everything that pans out in your favor is "so obvious"...everything that doesn't is "beyond what could be expected".

 

[Satans Hockey]

View attachment 968367

Dano really took advantage of all the free food in the Harris suite on Sunday at the Commanders game

 

[Clam Jensen]

When guitarguy and triumph are going toe to toe, get the popcorn out

 

[Bleedred]

If Allen chokes tomorrow night’s game away then you gotta go to Daws on Sunday.

Or maybe even Poulter if he’s still up.

That second goal was one of the lousiest goals I’ve seen this week. And that’s ignoring the first goal.

Apparently to some Allen wasn’t really a problem and it was just Nico being out and Jack injured that were the problem.

 

[guitarguyvic]

If Allen chokes tomorrow night’s game away then you gotta go to Daws on Sunday.

Or maybe even Poulter if he’s still up.

That second goal was one of the lousiest goals I’ve seen this week. And that’s ignoring the first goal.

Apparently to some Allen wasn’t really a problem and it was just Nico being out and Jack injured that were the problem.

That second goal was pretty damn bad.

The Devils first goal was also a fluke and the only other one they scored was 6v5. So Allen would still be way down on the list for blame.

 

[Better Call Sal]

If Allen chokes tomorrow night’s game away then you gotta go to Daws on Sunday.

Or maybe even Poulter if he’s still up.

That second goal was one of the lousiest goals I’ve seen this week. And that’s ignoring the first goal.

Apparently to some Allen wasn’t really a problem and it was just Nico being out and Jack injured that were the problem.

I think you're often hard on goalies (I know it's your MO ) but Allen certainly holds responsibility last night. The game should have never gotten to 2-0 in the first period. That second goal against was pathetic across the board.

 

[HoliksGhost]

I think you're often hard on goalies (I know it's your MO ) but Allen certainly holds responsibility last night. The game should have never gotten to 2-0 in the first period. That second goal against was pathetic across the board.

Vitek says hello

 

[Richer's Ghost]

This was so much fun we should do it again tomorrow!

*tosses smoke bomb on ice and runs*

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

yeah, Allen made some great saves in the 3rd period, but he is maybe the main reason the game got to 3-0. Goals 2 and 3 were absolutely horrific goaltending, and then the Devils have to chase the game the rest of the way.

now before the usual suspects chime in and defend the goaltending, NO, the team was not good enough to start the game, especially on that pathetic early PP....

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

Luke should not be immune to watching a game or two from the press box - he’s a kid after all. I think he needs a little break.

That's been my biggest issue with this franchise since the bubble year. There are rules for some and not others.

Why is Simon learning how to play defense in Utica yet Luke continues making the same mistakes without even being sat at the least?

Did anyone not anticipate the final goal last night with BOTH Hughes on the ice and the goalie pulled?

And what does it say to the rest of your forward group when one player stays on the ice over three minutes?

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

what kind of resolution are you hoping for? he’s never wearing an nhl sweater again

Guilty until proven innocent? I was under the impression that there was due process in Canada too.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

Fitz needs to get a third line center asap. Unless, Fitz is happy with this team the way it is. Maybe he figures this team isn’t going far in the playoffs, especially with what Carolina did, because I don’t see us beating them. They got a beast in a great trade. If they get decent goaltending they should be the favorites to win it all in my opinion.

Until Carolina rectifies the goalie situation (hard to imagine they're planning to ride Andersen), far more worried about Washington or the Atlantic teams.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

That's been my biggest issue with this franchise since the bubble year. There are rules for some and not others.

Why is Simon learning how to play defense in Utica yet Luke continues making the same mistakes without even being sat at the least?

Did anyone not anticipate the final goal last night with BOTH Hughes on the ice and the goalie pulled?

And what does it say to the rest of your forward group when one player stays on the ice over three minutes?

among 217 DMen who have played at least 250 minutes at 5 on 5, here are Luke's ranks:

CA/60- 21st.
GA/60- 19th.
xGA/60- 37th.
HDCA/60- 50th.

This notion of "Luke can't play defense!" that you continually push is tiring. Do better. Yes, he has struggled a bit lately, but the point remains.