Line Combos: Your 2024-25 Opening Night Lineup

[Hockeyville USA]

crazy how we could of had Drouin, Stamkos, Point, Kucherov & Deangelo on the same power play..

Crazy that Yzerman/Murray ever thought DeAngelo was a good idea considering he was a well known dressing room cancer in junior.

 

[Byrddog]

People are just bi-polar When it comes to picks. While they are a necessary thing unless a team can trade them for immediate improvment chances are the player will not play 200 games in the league. I any given year there will be one to three layers ready to enter the league and be impactful. Then how many times have the top picks just plain flamed out. So much focus put on the top few players that are picked teams have squandered chances to pick up gems later in the draft.

Now this is not meant to single out the Bolts but many teams development fail them . Look at Buffalo for example they have loaded with high picks for a decade. Many of those guys they give p on that go elsewhere and light it up. This was a strength Yzerman had that JBB has not followed. JBB has moved the other direction attempting to bundle picks and young players for guys more roster ready filling in with UFA’s. Some has worked but more have failed not just Jeanott but Shery and the blue line vision flopped. Going into the start of a season where ABB was slotted in the top 6 while many of us knew this was a failure. The basic team is Offense Defense and special teams and other than the PP he has broken at least one of each in the last three years. Currently this is no longer Yzers team. If the team fails this year while it’s not 100% he will be fired chances are greater than 75%. He will be fired before Coop you can count on that.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

People are just bi-polar When it comes to picks. While they are a necessary thing unless a team can trade them for immediate improvment chances are the player will not play 200 games in the league. I any given year there will be one to three layers ready to enter the league and be impactful. Then how many times have the top picks just plain flamed out. So much focus put on the top few players that are picked teams have squandered chances to pick up gems later in the draft.

Now this is not meant to single out the Bolts but many teams development fail them . Look at Buffalo for example they have loaded with high picks for a decade. Many of those guys they give p on that go elsewhere and light it up. This was a strength Yzerman had that JBB has not followed. JBB has moved the other direction attempting to bundle picks and young players for guys more roster ready filling in with UFA’s. Some has worked but more have failed not just Jeanott but Shery and the blue line vision flopped. Going into the start of a season where ABB was slotted in the top 6 while many of us knew this was a failure. The basic team is Offense Defense and special teams and other than the PP he has broken at least one of each in the last three years. Currently this is no longer Yzers team. If the team fails this year while it’s not 100% he will be fired chances are greater than 75%. He will be fired before Coop you can count on that.

We traded the picks that became Oliver Moore and Cole Eiserman for Hagel. We gave up 1 too many 1sts for Hagel, we'll see how it pans out. I really like Hagel though, wish we would have drafted him or signed him after Buffalo let his rights walk so we wouldn't have had to give up so much in that trade. Raddysh just never developed and Katchouk was a bad pick, so not worrying about them now

 

[Stelio Kontos]

Crazy that Yzerman/Murray ever thought DeAngelo was a good idea considering he was a well known dressing room cancer in junior.

Pasta drafted 6 spots after

 

[Rschmitz]

I think it's because we turned him into Sergachev. Drouin became an afterthought. A footnote in Lightning history.

Maybe I'm just ECHL brained, but I don't see how hyper-focusing on a few poor roster decisions really ends up mattering, especially if they get corrected somehow.

Jeannot wasn't given an eight-year deal. They didn't send the Brinks truck up his driveway. TB spent too much in a trade, but they also knew that at the time. Most or all of those draft picks probably won't matter too much. There's always more players.

Yes, it's 100% because he was turned into Sergachev

Having said that, the Jeannot trade still deserves the ridicule it gets.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

Because he was an exceptional prospect? There have been much bigger misses than Drouin who had an excellent case for his draft position at the time and Seth Jones was a headcase in his interviews.

Was he? I remember watching his interview with Columbus at the time and he seemed pretty impressive to me.

Edit - this is all I could find.

 

[RLP55]

For those who enjoy stats, #s, charts and such, there’s some interesting evaluations of Eyssimont and Chaffee over at RC.

Raw Charge - Tampa Bay Lightning News & Analysis,

Providing insight, news, analysis, and fun for fans of the Tampa Bay Lightning since 2009.

www.rawcharge.com

 

[DFC]

Crazy that Yzerman/Murray ever thought DeAngelo was a good idea considering he was a well known dressing room cancer in junior.

To be fair, they always selected BPA regardless. He was likely the most talented guy. Interestingly, after DeAngelo, Yzerman seemed to have no appetite whatsoever for attitude issues and purged the system.

 

[OffBy1]

For those who enjoy stats, #s, charts and such, there’s some interesting evaluations of Eyssimont and Chaffee over at RC.

Raw Charge - Tampa Bay Lightning News & Analysis,

Providing insight, news, analysis, and fun for fans of the Tampa Bay Lightning since 2009.

www.rawcharge.com

Chaffee improving his game to the level where he could fill the second line winger hole would do a lot for the forward lines:

Guentz - Point - Kuch
Hagel - Cirelli - Chaffee
Sheary - Paul - Atkinson
Girg - Glen - Eyssimont

Hopefully Sheary can at least pass for a serviceable third line player this year.

For the few here who've thought the forum has been too hard on Sheary, check out this review:

2023-24 Tampa Bay Lightning Player Reviews: Conor Sheary

Conor Sheary’s 2023-24 season wasn’t what anyone wanted. Slowed by a hand injury, he never looked comfortable on the ice.

www.rawcharge.com

"Evolving Hockey had him rated as a below-replacement player, calculating his SPAR at -0.2 indicating that he hurt the team more than he helped them when he was on the ice."

 

[JTBF81]

The only real poor mistakes from JBB were the Jeannot trade and the overpay to Serg. Trading McD was the unfortunate, but necessary move at the time to keep the players JBB felt had more potential and the higher long term ceiling. Serg may or may not become that player, but Tampa couldn't afford to wait any longer and he wasn't going to be a #1 for them while Hedman is there.

As far as Jeannot, he went for a big swing and missed, but aside from the 1st and 2nd round picks, not a great deal was lost. He recouped one of those pieces in getting the 2nd back when moving Jeannot as well. He also didn't commit to him long term, which made the contract easier to move.

His return for Serg was excellent value from most accounts, and helped clear the way for Guentzel. It seems somewhat likely that JBB may have planned to move him in any case, as had they acquired Hanifin and extended him for comparable to what McD is making, Serg still would've likely been moved. Getting McD and a 4th for a 2nd+7th is fine value as well, and sinve je only has two years left, JBB didn't have to sink big $ into a 5-7 year deal for a ufa.

Some thought he should have traded Stamkos atbthe deadline,.but that was very unlikely to happen. Stamkos.pretty quickly would've blocked any trade almost certainly, and with the team still being a playoff team and trying to add, trading g Stamkos was not going to happen. Even had JBB told his camp that he wasn't interested in re-signing Stamkos, and Stamkos did agree to.waive, JBB likely would've had 1 or 2 teams to.work with, so any plan that Tampa was going to get some haul for him also seems dubious.

In the end, he's been at the forefront of building the team, even if Yzerman gets most of the credit for that. JBB made the trades to complete the team and it led to b2b cups(and nearly a 3 peat). Yzerman couldn't get them over the finish line in his time as GM, and while JBB has had some misses, to think his seat is even remotely warm at this point seems to be quite the reach. Tampa wouldn't be able to find anyone better given those out there imo, and if Vinik did let him go, he'd be hired within a week by one of the many teams that would be calling for his services.

 

[Felonious Python]

The only real poor mistakes from JBB were the Jeannot trade and the overpay to Serg. Trading McD was the unfortunate, but necessary move at the time to keep the players JBB felt had more potential and the higher long term ceiling. Serg may or may not become that player, but Tampa couldn't afford to wait any longer and he wasn't going to be a #1 for them while Hedman is there.

As far as Jeannot, he went for a big swing and missed, but aside from the 1st and 2nd round picks, not a great deal was lost. He recouped one of those pieces in getting the 2nd back when moving Jeannot as well. He also didn't commit to him long term, which made the contract easier to move.

His return for Serg was excellent value from most accounts, and helped clear the way for Guentzel. It seems somewhat likely that JBB may have planned to move him in any case, as had they acquired Hanifin and extended him for comparable to what McD is making, Serg still would've likely been moved. Getting McD and a 4th for a 2nd+7th is fine value as well, and sinve je only has two years left, JBB didn't have to sink big $ into a 5-7 year deal for a ufa.

Some thought he should have traded Stamkos atbthe deadline,.but that was very unlikely to happen. Stamkos.pretty quickly would've blocked any trade almost certainly, and with the team still being a playoff team and trying to add, trading g Stamkos was not going to happen. Even had JBB told his camp that he wasn't interested in re-signing Stamkos, and Stamkos did agree to.waive, JBB likely would've had 1 or 2 teams to.work with, so any plan that Tampa was going to get some haul for him also seems dubious.

In the end, he's been at the forefront of building the team, even if Yzerman gets most of the credit for that. JBB made the trades to complete the team and it led to b2b cups(and nearly a 3 peat). Yzerman couldn't get them over the finish line in his time as GM, and while JBB has had some misses, to think his seat is even remotely warm at this point seems to be quite the reach. Tampa wouldn't be able to find anyone better given those out there imo, and if Vinik did let him go, he'd be hired within a week by one of the many teams that would be calling for his services.

Trading Stamkos at the deadline would have put the team into so much turmoil, I don't think they could have won, anyway.

 

[OffBy1]

The only real poor mistakes from JBB were the Jeannot trade and the overpay to Serg. Trading McD was the unfortunate, but necessary move at the time to keep the players JBB felt had more potential and the higher long term ceiling. Serg may or may not become that player, but Tampa couldn't afford to wait any longer and he wasn't going to be a #1 for them while Hedman is there.

I don't know how more self-evident a GM mistake can be than spending assets to reacquire a player you traded away just two years ago, who still costs just as much as when you had to let them go and they're now 35. The better move would have been trade away someone else. We might not have done any better the last two years, but at least we'd still have our 2nd and 7th that turned into a 4th to get him back.

He compounded the McD mistake by mismanaging the freed-up space. He gave Cirelli a 23% raise and he's remained the same player he was when he was making 4.8. Serge may grow into his 8.5 mil contract, but he regressed defensively the year before last, and regressed both offensively and defensively this last year. Cernak hasn't looked the same since McD was traded, whether that's from injuries or not. It's as many said on this forum at the time he handed them out - he bet on their potential and that potential has not been realized.

Some thought he should have traded Stamkos atbthe deadline,.but that was very unlikely to happen. Stamkos.pretty quickly would've blocked any trade almost certainly, and with the team still being a playoff team and trying to add, trading g Stamkos was not going to happen. Even had JBB told his camp that he wasn't interested in re-signing Stamkos, and Stamkos did agree to.waive, JBB likely would've had 1 or 2 teams to.work with, so any plan that Tampa was going to get some haul for him also seems dubious.

We didn't have to get a haul for Stamkos, but anything would be better than how it played out - a first round trouncing and nothing for the loss of Stamkos. If JBB went into reload mode for next year and traded Stamkos, we wouldn't have traded picks for Duclair or Dumba either, which ultimately didn't earn us much in the postseason.

Instead of getting something for Stamkos, we paid a 3rd round pick to sign his free agent replacement. Guentzal is a welcome improvement, but I would have thought the worst case scenario was Stamkos walks for nothing and we sign a replacement, but JBB managed to shed a 3rd rounder in the process.

You can assume Stamkos wouldn't have allowed a trade and that we would have had few partners, but no one can speak to that except JBB.

In the end, he's been at the forefront of building the team, even if Yzerman gets most of the credit for that. JBB made the trades to complete the team and it led to b2b cups(and nearly a 3 peat). Yzerman couldn't get them over the finish line in his time as GM, and while JBB has had some misses, to think his seat is even remotely warm at this point seems to be quite the reach. Tampa wouldn't be able to find anyone better given those out there imo, and if Vinik did let him go, he'd be hired within a week by one of the many teams that would be calling for his services.

That someone else would hire him isn't saying much as people with any level of success often get rehired in this league. "wouldn't be able to find anyone better" - Are you speaking in the abstract or have you actually looked at the potential candidates? I haven't myself, and I doubt anyone has.

If we don't make the finals in the two next seasons, that'd be four straight years of missing it with the core JBB thinks is still capable and thus continues to trade away picks to support, like the 2nd for McD, the 3rd for Guentz, and the deadline rentals last year. If he only has a couple more 1st and 2nd round exits to show for it, the remaining core is then 2 years older, and the farm remains depleted - why wouldn't that be grounds for going in a new direction?

I'm hoping we manage to find two solid scoring lines (Chaffee to the rescue?), improve defensively at 5v5, go deep into the playoffs and actually contend - then he'll be earning his keep with what he's been spending. I've been doubting him since the 8 year contracts bonanza and he hasn't done much to get me back on Team JBB aside from Hagel, Paul and the potential with of return for the Serge trade. If Moser improves the team this year and Geekie next year, well then that'd be something.

 

[JTBF81]

I don't know how more self-evident a GM mistake can be than spending assets to reacquire a player you traded away just two years ago, who still costs just as much as when you had to let them go and they're now 35. The better move would have been trade away someone else. We might not have done any better the last two years, but at least we'd still have our 2nd and 7th that turned into a 4th to get him back.

He compounded the McD mistake by mismanaging the freed-up space. He gave Cirelli a 23% raise and he's remained the same player he was when he was making 4.8. Serge may grow into his 8.5 mil contract, but he regressed defensively the year before last, and regressed both offensively and defensively this last year. Cernak hasn't looked the same since McD was traded, whether that's from injuries or not. It's as many said on this forum at the time he handed them out - he bet on their potential and that potential has not been realized.



We didn't have to get a haul for Stamkos, but anything would be better than how it played out - a first round trouncing and nothing for the loss of Stamkos. If JBB went into reload mode for next year and traded Stamkos, we wouldn't have traded picks for Duclair or Dumba either, which ultimately didn't earn us much in the postseason.

Instead of getting something for Stamkos, we paid a 3rd round pick to sign his free agent replacement. Guentzal is a welcome improvement, but I would have thought the worst case scenario was Stamkos walks for nothing and we sign a replacement, but JBB managed to shed a 3rd rounder in the process.

You can assume Stamkos wouldn't have allowed a trade and that we would have had few partners, but no one can speak to that except JBB.



That someone else would hire him isn't saying much as people with any level of success often get rehired in this league. "wouldn't be able to find anyone better" - Are you speaking in the abstract or have you actually looked at the potential candidates? I haven't myself, and I doubt anyone has.

If we don't make the finals in the two next seasons, that'd be four straight years of missing it with the core JBB thinks is still capable and thus continues to trade away picks to support, like the 2nd for McD, the 3rd for Guentz, and the deadline rentals last year. If he only has a couple more 1st and 2nd round exits to show for it, the remaining core is then 2 years older, and the farm remains depleted - why wouldn't that be grounds for going in a new direction?

I'm hoping we manage to find two solid scoring lines (Chaffee to the rescue?), improve defensively at 5v5, go deep into the playoffs and actually contend - then he'll be earning his keep with what he's been spending. I've been doubting him since the 8 year contracts bonanza and he hasn't done much to get me back on Team JBB aside from Hagel, Paul and the potential with of return for the Serge trade. If Moser improves the team this year and Geekie next year, well then that'd be something.

Except trading McD was the correct move for that point in time for a couple of reasons. Let's be real, JBB was.never moving either of Cirelli or Cernak, as one is the team's 2C for the long run, and the other is the best RD they had/have for now. Both were slightly overpaid, but not by as much as Serg. Both also have just as much potential to reach ceilings that make the contracts look even better. Not to mention, these players and their agents realized the cap would be increasing again during this contract, and so neither was going to accept some laughable min raise on a long-term deal.

Trading McD was also the correct choice, as at the time he was 33 and looking like a dman that may have been beginning to decline. Serg was 25 and looking as though he may be emerging as the true heir apparent to Hedman. The contract was 1.5-2 million overpaid, and he has not taken that next step since. JBB was also not going to spend 23 million on the left side of the defense, forcing him to sacrifice elsewhere. Trading back for McD wasn't even the plan, as Nashville contacted him about trading back for McD. It's great that McD has had two solid seasons with Nashvile (when not dealing with injury), and hopefully, he can have another 2 solid seasons with Tampa; but at the time, moving him was correct given lineup considerations and level of play.

Teams that are focused on trying to win don't trade a player like Stamkos at a trade deadline. JBB clearly wasn't going to send a message that he was giving up on the season by doing so, and again, Stamkos, who had in the past said he wouldn't waive his NMC, was extremely unlikely to do so. It's no big deal that they paid a 3rd round pick for Guentzel's.rights. JBB wasn't going to take any chances this time, and a future 3rd has a minimal chance of ever being anything (especially not for this core).

There's no one better that would be readily available imo. None of the GM's of other successful franchises are getting fired anytime soon it would stand to reason, and I don’t see Tampa looking to hire some 1st time GM or cast off from another team. Regardless of whether they make the SCF or win a Cup in the next two seasons doesn't change that, unless Tampa completely falls off a cliff and becomes a lottery team. JBB is a good GM because he's willing to take big swings and go for Cups while the window is open. He's got two, which is already an incredible achievement, and most of his moves have allowed the team to keep the window open. He's primarily played a tough game of balancing moves for now and the future well enough. I'm 100% fine with moving all the futures he has, as that's what teams in their windows should do imo to maximize their chances. If not for some injuries and being very run down, this strategy likely wojld have resulted in a cap era dynasty.

Vinik seems quite confident in the job he is doing, and the team's results with him as GM speak for themselves. For all the praise Yzerman gets on this board and others (most well earned), they won nothing under his leadership. Regardless of where he left the team, it is what JBB did as GM that helped push the team over the top. He's identified and corrected a couple of his weaker trades/signings, set the team up to hopefully contend this season and beyond, and added a couple of additional draft picks/prospects for the next couple of years (perhaps to be used at the tdl this year, who knows). The one skeptical signing remains Sheary, but if he can stay healthy and rebound to something like the player he was the 2 or 3 years before joining Tampa, that signing/contract may also look solid.

 

[Rschmitz]

Except trading McD was the correct move for that point in time for a couple of reasons. Let's be real, JBB was.never moving either of Cirelli or Cernak, as one is the team's 2C for the long run, and the other is the best RD they had/have for now. Both were slightly overpaid, but not by as much as Serg. Both also have just as much potential to reach ceilings that make the contracts look even better. Not to mention, these players and their agents realized the cap would be increasing again during this contract, and so neither was going to accept some laughable min raise on a long-term deal.

Trading McD was also the correct choice, as at the time he was 33 and looking like a dman that may have been beginning to decline. Serg was 25 and looking as though he may be emerging as the true heir apparent to Hedman. The contract was 1.5-2 million overpaid, and he has not taken that next step since. JBB was also not going to spend 23 million on the left side of the defense, forcing him to sacrifice elsewhere. Trading back for McD wasn't even the plan, as Nashville contacted him about trading back for McD. It's great that McD has had two solid seasons with Nashvile (when not dealing with injury), and hopefully, he can have another 2 solid seasons with Tampa; but at the time, moving him was correct given lineup considerations and level of play.

Teams that are focused on trying to win don't trade a player like Stamkos at a trade deadline. JBB clearly wasn't going to send a message that he was giving up on the season by doing so, and again, Stamkos, who had in the past said he wouldn't waive his NMC, was extremely unlikely to do so. It's no big deal that they paid a 3rd round pick for Guentzel's.rights. JBB wasn't going to take any chances this time, and a future 3rd has a minimal chance of ever being anything (especially not for this core).

There's no one better that would be readily available imo. None of the GM's of other successful franchises are getting fired anytime soon it would stand to reason, and I don’t see Tampa looking to hire some 1st time GM or cast off from another team. Regardless of whether they make the SCF or win a Cup in the next two seasons doesn't change that, unless Tampa completely falls off a cliff and becomes a lottery team. JBB is a good GM because he's willing to take big swings and go for Cups while the window is open. He's got two, which is already an incredible achievement, and most of his moves have allowed the team to keep the window open. He's primarily played a tough game of balancing moves for now and the future well enough. I'm 100% fine with moving all the futures he has, as that's what teams in their windows should do imo to maximize their chances. If not for some injuries and being very run down, this strategy likely wojld have resulted in a cap era dynasty.

Vinik seems quite confident in the job he is doing, and the team's results with him as GM speak for themselves. For all the praise Yzerman gets on this board and others (most well earned), they won nothing under his leadership. Regardless of where he left the team, it is what JBB did as GM that helped push the team over the top. He's identified and corrected a couple of his weaker trades/signings, set the team up to hopefully contend this season and beyond, and added a couple of additional draft picks/prospects for the next couple of years (perhaps to be used at the tdl this year, who knows). The one skeptical signing remains Sheary, but if he can stay healthy and rebound to something like the player he was the 2 or 3 years before joining Tampa, that signing/contract may also look solid.

If we dealt Sergachev for a similar deal to the one he was just traded for, this team might have been in position to win the cup for the last two years.

Sergachev cost 2m more and needed PP time to be effective, something he wasn't going to get with Hedman here. It was always the wrong move IMO. The deal he signed never priced in the fact that he couldn't handle tough defensive zone minutes and it burned us

 

[T REX]

Sounds like the only thing left for JBB to do is walk on water.

 

[JTBF81]

Sounds like the only thing left for JBB to do is walk on water.

Nah, he has a few steps to go before that. Unlike some though that think he should be fired I guess, I, and many others, will continue to evaluate him for everything he has done, not just one bad trade and one or two questionable signings.

 

[JTBF81]

If we dealt Sergachev for a similar deal to the one he was just traded for, this team might have been in position to win the cup for the last two years.

Sergachev cost 2m more and needed PP time to be effective, something he wasn't going to get with Hedman here. It was always the wrong move IMO. The deal he signed never priced in the fact that he couldn't handle tough defensive zone minutes and it burned us

Serg was overpaid no question, but no GM is trading a 25 year old dman that is entering his prime, despite some warts, in favor of a 33 year old dman who looked pretty poor near the end of that season/playoffs. JBB played the long game there and paid Serg for his potential. It didn't quite work out after Serg had a more successful season. McD also dealt with some injuries and missed time his 1st year in Nashville I believe, so who knows how well that would've turned out.

Hindsight is great, but at the time, keeping the 8 years younger dman with the higher ceiling wasn't a difficult decision, as wvidenced by JBB quickly working to move McD within a couple.of days after the SCF. As with then, I believe JBB had already made the decision to look into moving a big contract dman(this time Serg) this summer. Whether it was Hanifin, McD, or another ufa acquisition, JBB seemed set on adding a considerable contract on the blueline.

If Serg does elevate his game now that he'll be a true #1 and get regular pp time, it may eventually look like a meh trade for Tampa, but for the here and now, getting the underrated Moser and a high-level prospect in Geekie (plus the 2nd) seems like a good move.

 

[T REX]

Nah, he has a few steps to go before that. Unlike some though that think he should be fired I guess, I, and many others, will continue to evaluate him for everything he has done, not just one bad trade and one or two questionable signings.

Simple question...another 1st round exit this year...do we give him another crack next year? Then another 1st round exit after that? When do we pull the proverbial plug? I'm asking to see where your line in the sand is...based on results. Thanks in advance.

 

[OffBy1]

Except trading McD was the correct move for that point in time for a couple of reasons. Let's be real, JBB was.never moving either of Cirelli or Cernak, as one is the team's 2C for the long run, and the other is the best RD they had/have for now. Both were slightly overpaid, but not by as much as Serg. Both also have just as much potential to reach ceilings that make the contracts look even better. Not to mention, these players and their agents realized the cap would be increasing again during this contract, and so neither was going to accept some laughable min raise on a long-term deal.

Cirelli signed his 6.25 extension in the summer of 2022. He had played two seasons on his 4.8 contract and his points per game both years (what gets you the big money in this league) was actually below his 19/20 season were he had .64 (he scored .44 and .56 in 20/21 and 21/22 respectively). To me, that's not screaming future 2C production, regardless of his defensive play. JBB signed him like he's a solid 2C for 8 years based off that? He was RFA, so his agent didn't have all the leverage.

He matched his career 19/20 pgg this year, the first time in 4 seasons and was not impressive in the playoffs with a team worst +/- and 2 points in 5 games. His faceoff % has been subpar for a defensive center for much of his career.

I don't hate Cirelli, I think JBB's decision to sign him to that contract was wrong. It's not a team killing deal on its own, but I think he was wrong on all three of the 8 year contracts - the amount and the length. At the time I was would have thought Cernak was closest to earning that money, but 8 years, as we've seen, can be risky if the player's health starts to become unreliable. And he's looked less rock solid defensively since McD was traded.

We had another option for 2C if he traded Cirelli in Stamkos. That would have free up 4.8 for more modest, not 8 year, contracts for Serge and Cernak, which would free up a little more by not having to overpay them for 8 year deals. Colton could have been our 3C. The lines would have looked something like this at forward:

Hagel - Point - Kucherov
Killorn - Stamkos - Paul (this worked very well while Cirelli was injured for this start of 2022/23)
Names - Colton - ABB
Perry - Belemare - Maroon

And with McD on the 2nd D pairing.

Better defensive depth, worse forward depth, but still two good first lines. And we wouldn't have spent two picks to get McD back, and maybe it would have been possible to keep Serge to take over for Hedman in another couple seasons.

Teams that are focused on trying to win don't trade a player like Stamkos at a trade deadline. JBB clearly wasn't going to send a message that he was giving up on the season by doing so, and again, Stamkos, who had in the past said he wouldn't waive his NMC, was extremely unlikely to do so. It's no big deal that they paid a 3rd round pick for Guentzel's.rights. JBB wasn't going to take any chances this time, and a future 3rd has a minimal chance of ever being anything (especially not for this core).

Yes, but you have to be objective about your team. We're down Palat, Killorn, and our original third line and McD from our cup teams. Vasy flamed out one year entirely and was coming off back surgery this year. He traded picks for rentals in Duclair and Dumba, which did little for us in the postseason.

Yeah, if Stamkos refused to waive, then that's not on JBB. Stamkos may have been more open if JBB was able to say to him, we're not bringing you back next year anyway. I don't think either of us can speak for JBB or Stamkos on how it went.

I love how year after year this forum keeps saying picks have minimal chances of resulting in an NHL player, ignoring those cumulative chances over the years. A third round pick has around a 25% chance of becoming an NHL player - that's not minimal. Picks are somehow near valueless yet other GMs are always willing to give us players for them that we think are going to be valuable? And year after year we're right up against the cap with few players in the farm we can hope will play a significant role.

 

[Outl4w]

Simple question...another 1st round exit this year...do we give him another crack next year? Then another 1st round exit after that? When do we pull the proverbial plug? I'm asking to see where your line in the sand is...based on results. Thanks in advance.

Most people will go against him when we don't make the playoffs. I'm not really happy either with the current lineup and early exits. Atkinson and Sheary seem like Ken Holland type country club moves. Aging vets that haven't produced in a few years.

 

[JTBF81]

Simple question...another 1st round exit this year...do we give him another crack next year? Then another 1st round exit after that? When do we pull the proverbial plug? I'm asking to see where your line in the sand is...based on results. Thanks in advance.

His teams have two cups and 3 finals trips. The only way he has any chance of getting let go is if Tampa misses entirely both years. He has been the most successful GM in the league during his tenure. His seat is about as far away from being warm as they come.

 

[JTBF81]

Most people will go against him when we don't make the playoffs. I'm not really happy either with the current lineup and early exits. Atkinson and Sheary seem like Ken Holland type country club moves. Aging vets that haven't produced in a few years.

Except Sheary had been averaging 19 goals and 41 points the prior 3 years to signing with Tampa. Getting a player like that for a 2 million aav is far from bad value. The term was probably a year too long, but his 1st year was riddled with injury problems. This year will be key in determining if the signing pans or if he gets jettisoned next summer (or before).

 

[Felonious Python]

Cirelli signed his 6.25 extension in the summer of 2022. He had played two seasons on his 4.8 contract and his points per game both years (what gets you the big money in this league) was actually below his 19/20 season were he had .64 (he scored .44 and .56 in 20/21 and 21/22 respectively). To me, that's not screaming future 2C production, regardless of his defensive play. JBB signed him like he's a solid 2C for 8 years based off that? He was RFA, so his agent didn't have all the leverage.

He matched his career 19/20 pgg this year, the first time in 4 seasons and was not impressive in the playoffs with a team worst +/- and 2 points in 5 games. His faceoff % has been subpar for a defensive center for much of his career.

I don't hate Cirelli, I think JBB's decision to sign him to that contract was wrong. It's not a team killing deal on its own, but I think he was wrong on all three of the 8 year contracts - the amount and the length. At the time I was would have thought Cernak was closest to earning that money, but 8 years, as we've seen, can be risky if the player's health starts to become unreliable. And he's looked less rock solid defensively since McD was traded.

We had another option for 2C if he traded Cirelli in Stamkos. That would have free up 4.8 for more modest, not 8 year, contracts for Serge and Cernak, which would free up a little more by not having to overpay them for 8 year deals. Colton could have been our 3C. The lines would have looked something like this at forward:

Hagel - Point - Kucherov
Killorn - Stamkos - Paul (this worked very well while Cirelli was injured for this start of 2022/23)
Names - Colton - ABB
Perry - Belemare - Maroon

And with McD on the 2nd D pairing.

Better defensive depth, worse forward depth, but still two good first lines. And we wouldn't have spent two picks to get McD back, and maybe it would have been possible to keep Serge to take over for Hedman in another couple seasons.


Yes, but you have to be objective about your team. We're down Palat, Killorn, and our original third line and McD from our cup teams. Vasy flamed out one year entirely and was coming off back surgery this year. He traded picks for rentals in Duclair and Dumba, which did little for us in the postseason.

Yeah, if Stamkos refused to waive, then that's not on JBB. Stamkos may have been more open if JBB was able to say to him, we're not bringing you back next year anyway. I don't think either of us can speak for JBB or Stamkos on how it went.

I love how year after year this forum keeps saying picks have minimal chances of resulting in an NHL player, ignoring those cumulative chances over the years. A third round pick has around a 25% chance of becoming an NHL player - that's not minimal. Picks are somehow near valueless yet other GMs are always willing to give us players for them that we think are going to be valuable? And year after year we're right up against the cap with few players in the farm we can hope will play a significant role.

A third round pick has a 75% of not hitting years from now, and we can sometimes trade it for a guy who will 100% help the team now.

Scouting staffs have tiers of players they like. As long as they can get some of them in a draft, they can walk away from draft weekend pretty happy. They may look at their 3rd-4th round rankings, and not see much difference.


If TB really wanted some random player in the draft, they'd move up.

 

[CupsOverCash]

His teams have two cups and 3 finals trips. The only way he has any chance of getting let go is if Tampa misses entirely both years. He has been the most successful GM in the league during his tenure. His seat is about as far away from being warm as they come.

It would be dumb to fire him so quickly with his track record. Young guy like him with success and is a smart guy. He'd be picked up so fast. I think the flat cap held a lot of teams back and made margin for error quite thin. We should be so happy and grateful for what this team has been able to do with its window. It's not closed yet and even if there are first round exits there is potential here with past track record. Tampa has set itself up to be a potential great place to play if you are a ufa or have a successful career. People would love to have the history we've had so far as a franchise.

 

[JTBF81]

Cirelli signed his 6.25 extension in the summer of 2022. He had played two seasons on his 4.8 contract and his points per game both years (what gets you the big money in this league) was actually below his 19/20 season were he had .64 (he scored .44 and .56 in 20/21 and 21/22 respectively). To me, that's not screaming future 2C production, regardless of his defensive play. JBB signed him like he's a solid 2C for 8 years based off that? He was RFA, so his agent didn't have all the leverage.

He matched his career 19/20 pgg this year, the first time in 4 seasons and was not impressive in the playoffs with a team worst +/- and 2 points in 5 games. His faceoff % has been subpar for a defensive center for much of his career.

I don't hate Cirelli, I think JBB's decision to sign him to that contract was wrong. It's not a team killing deal on its own, but I think he was wrong on all three of the 8 year contracts - the amount and the length. At the time I was would have thought Cernak was closest to earning that money, but 8 years, as we've seen, can be risky if the player's health starts to become unreliable. And he's looked less rock solid defensively since McD was traded.

We had another option for 2C if he traded Cirelli in Stamkos. That would have free up 4.8 for more modest, not 8 year, contracts for Serge and Cernak, which would free up a little more by not having to overpay them for 8 year deals. Colton could have been our 3C. The lines would have looked something like this at forward:

Hagel - Point - Kucherov
Killorn - Stamkos - Paul (this worked very well while Cirelli was injured for this start of 2022/23)
Names - Colton - ABB
Perry - Belemare - Maroon

And with McD on the 2nd D pairing.

Better defensive depth, worse forward depth, but still two good first lines. And we wouldn't have spent two picks to get McD back, and maybe it would have been possible to keep Serge to take over for Hedman in another couple seasons.


Yes, but you have to be objective about your team. We're down Palat, Killorn, and our original third line and McD from our cup teams. Vasy flamed out one year entirely and was coming off back surgery this year. He traded picks for rentals in Duclair and Dumba, which did little for us in the postseason.

Yeah, if Stamkos refused to waive, then that's not on JBB. Stamkos may have been more open if JBB was able to say to him, we're not bringing you back next year anyway. I don't think either of us can speak for JBB or Stamkos on how it went.

I love how year after year this forum keeps saying picks have minimal chances of resulting in an NHL player, ignoring those cumulative chances over the years. A third round pick has around a 25% chance of becoming an NHL player - that's not minimal. Picks are somehow near valueless yet other GMs are always willing to give us players for them that we think are going to be valuable? And year after year we're right up against the cap with few players in the farm we can hope will play a significant role.

Stamkos was no longer a good 2C, and has only got worse since then. It would've.been a terrible move to put him back there. Cirelli was overpaid by 500-750k tops. He was never taking some pitiful low 5's offer, as I'm guessing if that's all JBB offered they'd look at exploring other options. Both players are two years in to an 8 year deal with a now steadily rising cap, so both contracts will look even better moving ahead in terms of cap %.

Those lines are atrocious. Neither the 3rd nor the 4th lines were any good, Killorn was aging and has been injury probe, and Stamkos and Paul were.a dumpster fire together. While I would've liked to have kept Colton, and sinking some of the $ that could have been used towards him on Jeannot was unfortunate, but if Gauthier can pan out it won't be ultimately terrible.

Teams never stay together for long during the cap era, and JBB had to make tough decisions. It's been very, very clear that aging vets are not going to be prioritized with high value contracts (Hedman being the exception)..A big draw to bringing McD back is he only has two years left, and they'll have room to address the defense in two years via trade or ufa with considerably more cap space.

I already said this about Stamkos, and was responding to you (and others) who think trading Stamkos at the tdl was some great and/or easy play. I agree it's impossible to say what may have happened, but the fact remains that Stamkos very clearly said he had no plans to leave and thus waiving his NMC seems very unlikely (especially with a team in playoff position).

I doubt most 3rd round picks have a 25% chance of hitting 200 games and/or being impactful NHL contributors. In the end, I don't care if he trades a few 3rd and 4th round picks to help seal deals for players that can help now. The next 3-5 years are the prime final years for this group, and these at best 25% chance 3rd rounders.*may* be of any help (although doubtful), by the very end of that window. They have more than a few players in Syracuse that could get spots or fight for them now, but the team seems to prefer to primarily add via trade or ufa.

JBB has added a couple of picks, and, after this coming draft, they'll have most of their picks again. If JBB feels the '26 and beyond picks are best used as trade chips to add for the now, so be it. Until he, management, and ownership feels they can't compete, they should use the pieces they have to add. Even doing what he did this offseason and re-tool on the fly, while keeping the window open, may have to happen again, who knows. I do know that it isn't the time to just focus on re-building the farm system while still in a win now position. They will no doubt use some picks and trade others as needed,.while JBB continues to have to juggle doing what's best for the short term and mid to long term. He's made some mistakes, but nothing even close to egregious enough to warrant talk of "hot seat" or being fired. His overall body of work is still much more positive than negative. There are very few GM's, if any, that I would consider to have more job security and confidence from ownership than JBB has with the Bolts heading into this season.