Yeah Sullivan Sucks, but Dubas needs to be talked about too...

[Zbynek]

I think it’s okay to admit we got taken for a ride on the Jake trade.

But but but Ville Koivunen might score 20 goals in the NHL one day! It will never happen in our current system, with this roster and much less under this coach but Dubas is filling the cupboard man!

I’m saying taking on Bunting with 2 years left and 4.5 cap hit, and as bad as he is, should have cost the Canes an extra asset on top of the sack of magic beans we got for Jake.

It’s quite likely the Canes got the 2 most valuable assets in that deal: Jake and out of Bunting’s deal. Given we got paid a 3rd and 6th to take on Glass when he only had 1 year left at 2 million less, it should have cost the Canes at least a 2nd, if not a 1st, to get out of the Bunting deal at that time.

Bunting is not returning a 3rd barring some miraculous revival of his game. He’s like Beauvillier, who gets traded for a 5th every year.

Unfortunately for us Dubas actually coveted Bunting because he's his guy and once again failed to assess objective trade value

 

[Duffy13]

I don't think Bunting will matter at the end of the day in the Jake trade, it would be nice if was able to score more and for Sullivan to let him be an antagonist like he used to be. But whatever.

Cruz Lucious, Koivunin and I can't remember if the Pick acquired ended up being Brunicke or Howe... Either way, I believe those 3 players will determine if the trade ends up positive or not.

However, in a win now public declaration, that trade does not pass the sniff test.

I hope it does not hit the levels of Beech and Sivek lol

 

[Empoleon8771]

lollllllllll you underestimate how hard people went on that deal last year. It's a point of pride, I think.

It wasn't the worst deal, honestly. As in... like... I readily cop to the fact that Jake kinda f***ed things a bit for the Penguins and rentals have their value essentially chopped in half. But I also think the idea of quantity over quality was intentional and I think that Dubas seriously thought he was being clever with Bunting. And to me at least those are two pretty big negatives and prevent it from being much of a win... if you can consider trading a 40 goal scorer a win.

That's the issue I have here, though. I think calling it a poor/mediocre return is totally fine, but saying they got killed in the deal is something I just don't understand. Especially when so many arguments about the Guentzel trade being bad come down to "I don't like Koivunen and Ponomarev so I'm going to pretend they don't exist".

It was a mediocre return that Dubas made a mistake with acquiring Bunting in. It wasn't a good deal but people acting like it was this massively horrid deal are also wrong. It's even more weird because if the Penguins had drafted Koivunen themselves (or didn't acquire him in the Guentzel trade), people would be really excited about him based on how well he has started the year with WBS. But because he was in the Guentzel trade and people want to be mad about the Guentzel return, they'll talk trash on him.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's the issue I have here, though. I think calling it a poor/mediocre return is totally fine, but saying they got killed in the deal is something I just don't understand. Especially when so many arguments about the Guentzel trade being bad come down to "I don't like Koivunen and Ponomarev so I'm going to pretend they don't exist".

It was a mediocre return that Dubas made a mistake with acquiring Bunting in. It wasn't a good deal but people acting like it was this massively horrid deal are also wrong. It's even more weird because if the Penguins had drafted Koivunen themselves (or didn't acquire him in the Guentzel trade), people would be really excited about him based on how well he has started the year with WBS. But because he was in the Guentzel trade and people want to be mad about the Guentzel return, they'll talk trash on him.

Guarantee in a few years when Koivunen is waived like Puustinen was today you’ll be using the same arguments you are using about Puustinen while defending the trade because of Koivunen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guarantee in a few years when Koivunen is waived like Puustinen was today you’ll be using the same arguments you are using about Puustinen while defending the trade because of Koivunen.

I mean it's entirely possible that Koivunen ends up another soft Euro SHL/AHL scorer. You are aware people can change their opinions when more information becomes available, right?

I think it's totally a possibility that Koivunen can produce well in the AHL but just can't cut it in the NHL. But as is, he's a 21 year old producing really well in the AHL. It's silly to not be excited about him because Puustinen ended up failing for what could be similar reasons.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Guentzel screwed the return

We should have shipped him out well before the TDL

But clung onto the hope of playoffs

Then he got hurt

We lost all leverage

The return on the trade at the time with the injury, might have been the best possible

But it should have happened the second his camp said they wouldnt negotiate in season

 

[Doctor Coffin]

Ooof, I'm 50 and have been through the mid 80s, and Gen X, this down cycle is boring as f*** so far

Same here. And I have distinct memories of the days when poor Michel Dion was being used for target practice.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That's the issue I have here, though. I think calling it a poor/mediocre return is totally fine, but saying they got killed in the deal is something I just don't understand. Especially when so many arguments about the Guentzel trade being bad come down to "I don't like Koivunen and Ponomarev so I'm going to pretend they don't exist".

It was a mediocre return that Dubas made a mistake with acquiring Bunting in. It wasn't a good deal but people acting like it was this massively horrid deal are also wrong. It's even more weird because if the Penguins had drafted Koivunen themselves (or didn't acquire him in the Guentzel trade), people would be really excited about him based on how well he has started the year with WBS. But because he was in the Guentzel trade and people want to be mad about the Guentzel return, they'll talk trash on him.

I'll be honest I make it a point to NOT talk trash on any of them because they are just scratch offs and it's not really fair to expect much otherwise.

The Jake trade more or less had to be made. So I'm glad they at least pulled the trigger on SOMETHING. But I can't get too much more enthusiastic as of right now than that. Bunting was a huge miscalculation. Obviously I hope these guys do great and make me look dumb for doubting but on the surface I think the draft pick they used for Burnicke looks like maybe the most promising thing out of that whole raft of whatever.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guentzel screwed the return

We should have shipped him out well before the TDL

But clung onto the hope of playoffs

Then he got hurt

We lost all leverage

The return on the trade at the time with the injury, might have been the best possible

But it should have happened the second his camp said they wouldnt negotiate in season

It was also weird that there didn't seem to be that big of a market for Guentzel last year. It seemed like it was mostly Carolina, Vancouver and NYR, while Vancouver kinda blew their load on Lindholm. It was an unusually bad market for sellers all around the league, the Penguins weren't in any different of a position with Guentzel.

I obviously wouldn't have targeted Bunting in the deal, but beyond that, I'm skeptical they could have done much better than what they got in the Guentzel deal. Maybe they could have given up Ponomarev to upgrade that 2nd into a 1st, but they ended up getting Brunicke with that 2nd anyway. Carolina wasn't going to trade Morrow or Blake for a rental Guentzel that only ended up giving them like 20 games.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think it’s okay to admit we got taken for a ride on the Jake trade.

I'm sure they'll get the last laugh when one of those prospects who were like 6th or 7th on Carolina's prospect pool pans out as a 3rd line player in 8 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm sure they'll get the last laugh when one of those prospects who were like 6th or 7th on Carolina's prospect pool pans out as a 3rd line player in 8 years.

Carolina got a grand total of 28 games out of Guentzel.

This whole idea of "the Penguins got smoked in the Guentzel trade" would hold more weight if Carolina didn't only get him for 15 regular season games and 2 playoff rounds where they lost.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean it's entirely possible that Koivunen ends up another soft Euro SHL/AHL scorer. You are aware people can change their opinions when more information becomes available, right?

I think it's totally a possibility that Koivunen can produce well in the AHL but just can't cut it in the NHL. But as is, he's a 21 year old producing really well in the AHL. It's silly to not be excited about him because Puustinen ended up failing for what could be similar reasons.

It’s fine to change opinions.

It’s also fine to criticize the Jake trade because it was a bad trade and not be gaslighted about how it was actually a decent trade.

Montreal got a better return for Monahan and Calgary got a better return for Lindholm.

Dubas was indecisive and focused on a mediocre former Soo (like he has for literally his entire career) and got a bunch of scratch offs and a 2nd.

It’s a detrimental trade to our rebuild to effectively return potentially nothing for our best asset and Bunting is losing value and eating up cap.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It’s fine to change opinions.

It’s also fine to criticize the Jake trade because it was a bad trade and not be gaslighted about how it was actually a decent trade.

Montreal got a better return for Monahan and Calgary got a better return for Lindholm.

Dubas was indecisive and focused on a mediocre former Soo (like he has for literally his entire career) and got a bunch of scratch offs and a 2nd.

It’s a detrimental trade to our rebuild to effectively return potentially nothing for our best asset and Bunting is losing value and eating up cap.

People disagreeing with you completely disregarding Koivunen and Ponomarev isn't "gaslighting" you. It's having a different opinion than you.

The Penguins got Bunting, Koivunen, Ponomarev, Lucius and pick #44 for Guentzel. The Habs got pick #26 and a 2027 3rd for Monahan. The Flames got Kuzmenko, Brzustewicz and pick #28 for Lindholm. I think the Guentzel trade was more value than the Monahan trade and I think the Lindholm trade and Guentzel trades were about equal in value.

That's not "gaslighting" you, that's having a different opinion because others value Ponomarev and Koivunen higher than you do.

 

[Gurglesons]

People disagreeing with you completely disregarding Koivunen and Ponomarev isn't "gaslighting" you. It's having a different opinion than you.

The Penguins got Bunting, Koivunen, Ponomarev, Lucius and pick #44 for Guentzel. The Habs got pick #26 and a 2027 3rd for Monahan. The Flames got Kuzmenko, Brzustewicz and pick #28 for Lindholm. I think the Guentzel trade was more value than the Monahan trade and I think the Lindholm trade and Guentzel trades were about equal in value.

That's not "gaslighting" you, that's having a different opinion because others value Ponomarev and Koivunen higher than you do.

1st overall pick for your 40 goal rental is the expectation IMO.

Especially in a year when you lost your 1st and are “rebuilding”.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Carolina got a grand total of 28 games out of Guentzel.

This whole idea of "the Penguins got smoked in the Guentzel trade" would hold more weight if Carolina didn't only get him for 15 regular season games and 2 playoff rounds where they lost.

I don't believe I said anything about the Penguins "getting smoked". I'm saying that the return they got was underwhelming, particularly the prospects in return.

If any of them turn into a legitimate top line player, then I'll have misjudged the return. Until then, it seems like a classic case of quantity over quality.

 

[McGroarty2]

I don't think Bunting will matter at the end of the day in the Jake trade, it would be nice if was able to score more and for Sullivan to let him be an antagonist like he used to be. But whatever.

Cruz Lucious, Koivunin and I can't remember if the Pick acquired ended up being Brunicke or Howe... Either way, I believe those 3 players will determine if the trade ends up positive or not.

However, in a win now public declaration, that trade does not pass the sniff test.

I hope it does not hit the levels of Beech and Sivek lol

Brunicke, also Bunting most likely gets moved for pick(s) at next season's trade deadline.

 

[Gurglesons]

Brunicke, also Bunting most likely gets moved for pick(s) at next season's trade deadline.

Brunicke is fine, but people act like we got Brunicke in the trade.

We got a 2nd.

 

[SEALBound]

1st overall pick for your 40 goal rental is the expectation IMO.

Especially in a year when you lost your 1st and are “rebuilding”.

1OV for rental Jake.

This is why people argue with you so hard. You are absolutely out to lunch 99.99% of the time.

 

[Gurglesons]

1OV for rental Jake.

This is why people argue with you so hard. You are absolutely out to lunch 99.99% of the time.

Wasn't an accident. He should've returned 1st overall.

At least I'm 99.99 versus 100% like you.

 

[SEALBound]

Wasn't an accident. He should've returned 1st overall.

At least I'm 99.99 versus 100% like you.

So Celebrini for rental Guentzel.

Got it.

 

[Gurglesons]

So Celebrini for rental Guentzel.

Got it.

Yes. It's insane that Dubas couldn't return the Sharks 1st for Guentzel.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

And coaches.

I think there is something in the train of thought that Dubas has done a decent job course correcting this year. But only decent. Like... these are all very safe, middle-of-the-road moves. And last year was an unmitigated disaster in which he roped the team into not one but two malodorous contracts the likes of which trump any stupid thing Ron Hextall did. So... like... what is that? Below average if we're being charitable?

The team needed a bold GM with a lot of energy and a unwavering vision in a DISTINCT direction. Not this haphazard scatterbrained approach that even when decisive leans towards "safe."

Leaf's fan here coming in peace....what I heard on the radio the other day pretty much summed up Dubas' reign in Toronto and that was "reactionary" vs being proactive in his building a team. If you had to list his failures it was basically trying to do it "his" way and then realizing late in the season...close to the TDL that he had to go out and get Grit, size etc. He always overpaid for the additions and because they weren't organic...they never really worked out. He sold the farm in his last year to get Ryan O'Reilly and the rest of them but it was putting lipstick on a pig...we fluked off 1 series win and got caved by FLA the next round.

As I have said in our forum....I thought he learned something after 5yrs of patching holes he pretty much created himself...but nope...the same guy who tried to get Karlsson at the TDL for the Leafs runs out and does it almost as a first order of business for the Pens. Thank God that Shanahan stopped him from trading for EK...

You will see that his "vision" for a team changes constantly and as long as it's not the tried and tested way (he detests old school building of teams) he will try it out. Smaller players are a fetish for him...he is just dying to prove he can find someone undersized that can play a big role...it's almost comical at this point with him.

I dislike him, because I feel he ruined what should have been a mini dynasty for us because of his "New School" approach to building a team. So there is some emotion in my candor about him.

Anyways...I wish you guys the best and hope he smartens up a bit...but I doubt it.

 

[SEALBound]

Leaf's fan here coming in peace....what I heard on the radio the other day pretty much summed up Dubas' reign in Toronto and that was "reactionary" vs being proactive in his building a team. If you had to list his failures it was basically trying to do it "his" way and then realizing late in the season...close to the TDL that he had to go out and get Grit, size etc. He always overpaid for the additions and because they weren't organic...they never really worked out. He sold the farm in his last year to get Ryan O'Reilly and the rest of them but it was putting lipstick on a pig...we fluked off 1 series win and got caved by FLA the next round.

As I have said in our forum....I thought he learned something after 5yrs of patching holes he pretty much created himself...but nope...the same guy who tried to get Karlsson at the TDL for the Leafs runs out and does it almost as a first order of business for the Pens. Thank God that Shanahan stopped him from trading for EK...

You will see that his "vision" for a team changes constantly and as long as it's not the tried and tested way (he detests old school building of teams) he will try it out. Smaller players are a fetish for him...he is just dying to prove he can find someone undersized that can play a big role...it's almost comical at this point with him.

I dislike him, because I feel he ruined what should have been a mini dynasty for us because of his "New School" approach to building a team. So there is some emotion in my candor about him.

Anyways...I wish you guys the best and hope he smartens up a bit...but I doubt it.

Great, thanks.

How's the post-Dubas era so far for the Leafs? Looks...productive...

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Great, thanks.

How's the post-Dubas era so far for the Leafs? Looks...productive...

You know something....Treliving is not exactly a great GM by my count...but just being AVERAGE seems to be way better than Dubas so far. He fixed the goaltending and D in 2 off seasons and has a coach that seems to value playoff style hockey instead of the run and gun show that turns into butter in the playoffs. Treliving has made minor mistakes as expected...but he seems to actually have a plan whereas Dubas seemed to fly by the seat of his pants most of the time...especially when it comes to goaltenders...as you guys have probably figured out by now.

One last thing about Dubas...be prepared for reclamation project after reclamation project because he just has to be the guy who took someone else's trash and found a gem. He hasn't really done it yet...but he will give anyone a shot in the hopes of being the guy who saved a career from the dumpster.

 

[Duffy13]

f***ing leaf fans man.... I hope there's never a Toronto connection to the Pens ever again.... Obsessive weirdos.