Yeah Sullivan Sucks, but Dubas needs to be talked about too...

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean the Carter deal was one of the worst deals of all time, so I get the Hextall hate. I just think people are actively ignoring Dubas’ f***ups so they don’t have to admit that they were wrong about him. At the same time, Hextall will probably have done better with some things than Dubas too, they’re eclipsed by the Carter contract (which people loved) and the Granlund trade.

I think it’s wild that when all is said and done Shero and JR are going to be two of the best Pens GMs of all time, simply because we like hiring terrible GMs apparently.

And coaches.

I think there is something in the train of thought that Dubas has done a decent job course correcting this year. But only decent. Like... these are all very safe, middle-of-the-road moves. And last year was an unmitigated disaster in which he roped the team into not one but two malodorous contracts the likes of which trump any stupid thing Ron Hextall did. So... like... what is that? Below average if we're being charitable?

The team needed a bold GM with a lot of energy and a unwavering vision in a DISTINCT direction. Not this haphazard scatterbrained approach that even when decisive leans towards "safe."

 

[Gurglesons]

2002 was great. Getting banned for misspelling Janne Laukkenen on the official Pens boards was great, Koltsov horsegirl, if you know, you know. I ended up coming here during the relocation horseshit because the official boards got increasingly less fun to post on. Time is a flat circle.

My point is more so that acting like you saw "a real rebuild" when the Penguins literally got a HOF goaltender, and two generational superstars in three drafts is a joke.

 

[BusinessGoose]

My point is more so that acting like you saw "a real rebuild" when the Penguins literally got a HOF goaltender, and two generational superstars in three drafts is a joke.

And we were only a few years removed from Jagr

And Mario was priming to return

 

[Slaaapshuter]

In all honesty I think Dubas (based on resume) is probably an average run out of the mill GM while Hextall is a bad one. But I was content with how Hextall was (not) running the ship, at that point I had already checked out on ice performance and didn't believe they could compete. So bad signings didn't matter as long as assets such as picks was not going out (so the Granlund trade triggered me).

I'm also sure that we will need a good/great GM going forward that can build a competent, coherent organization from scouting to coaching to WBS. Someone who does as few mistakes as possible in trades and strikes out at a low rate.

Because I'm not expecting to ever see Pittsburgh pick up a generational player again (let alone two) and they're not an attractive market that good players want to join like NY, LA and the likes.

So that GM will have to do more with less and that aint Dubas in my opinion.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

My point is more so that acting like you saw "a real rebuild" when the Penguins literally got a HOF goaltender, and two generational superstars in three drafts is a joke.

I mean five years of "suffering" is paltry if the reward is those guys and like 15+ years of dominance. No doubt.

But to be clear those were REALLY AWFUL TEAMS. I don't wear it as a badge of honor or anything because that just seems kinda silly to me but if you sat through THAT you really love the Pittsburgh Penguins. Those guys you mentioned weren't around yet, after all. Aside from a little bit of Fleury. And so the likes of Rico Fata and Brian Holzinger were still the team's best players night to night.

 

[HandshakeLine]

My point is more so that acting like you saw "a real rebuild" when the Penguins literally got a HOF goaltender, and two generational superstars in three drafts is a joke.

But I was momentarily inconvenienced!

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean five years of "suffering" is paltry if the reward is those guys and like 15+ years of dominance. No doubt.

But to be clear those were REALLY AWFUL TEAMS. I don't wear it as a badge of honor or anything because that just seems kinda silly to me but if you sat through THAT you really love the Pittsburgh Penguins. Those guys you mentioned weren't around yet, after all. Aside from a little bit of Fleury. And so the likes of Rico Fata and Brian Holzinger were still the team's best players night to night.

Lots of teams are bad.

Penguins fans haven't had to deal with that outside of like 3 years where we still were getting Lang and Kovalev connection or a 91 point season out of Lemieux.

Any Penguins fan in their 30s to early 50s has no real idea what a "really awful team" looks like.

 

[SEALBound]

I think the rebuilds of today and the rebuilds of yesteryear are a bit different. First, I think players are getting better so in whole, there's a larger group of talent to choose from. It's easier to scout and monitor prospects today vs say in the 80s/90s/early 2000s. And the salary cap is in place. We lucked out in that we sucked at the right time. After 2001, we were horribad until about mid-2007 but really it wasn't until 2008-2009 where the roster hit its stride.

I think people romanticize the Gen X (post-Jagr, pre-Sid) era too much. Those teams, when Mario was out, were terrible. I mean, they flat out f***ing sucked. While some people say "it was fun to watch them!" No it wasn't. It was awful watching them. It was largely a collection of cheap nobodies and prospects that were never going to work out. There's a reason we got the 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd overall picks in the draft over those years. What really sucked is that going again big market teams with loaded rosters meant that there was zero chance. I guess it was fun in the aspect that every game felt like the 1980 USA vs. USSR game where everyone expected us to lose handily and it was a big deal when we won because for us fans, it was an opportunity for us to mock the otherside like "Haha! You guys lost to US! You REALLY suck! Haha!"

I hope the next rebuild isn't that bad. You should all too.

I have a Milan Kraft robopen jersey.

I have a Morozov robopen.

I find it odd that Hextall was crucified for paying a 2nd for Granlund while Dubas was praised for getting Bunting, a worse player with a worse contract, in the Jake deal.

We needed a roster player back, likely to fill the whole and likely for cap reasons as well. Do you have proof that there were MORE picks and prospects on the table in the trade discussions? It's entirely possible that if Dubas refuses Bunting, the deal doesn't go down.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Lots of teams are bad.

Penguins fans haven't had to deal with that outside of like 3 years where we still were getting Lang and Kovalev connection or a 91 point season out of Lemieux.

Any Penguins fan in their 30s to early 50s has no real idea what a "really awful team" looks like.

Dude... it can be both things.

Penguins fans are lucky as hell in general and in particular when it comes to how ridiculously short their most recent "dark era" was (the 80s looked like they must have been truly miserable but even I'm not old enough to say with any confidence because I was a little kid) AND the like 02-05 teams were legitimately really, really bad. Like... it would be a season highlight when someone would score a goal or make a play that even near-40 Sid and Geno routinely do like every game several times.

People were talking about that Ryan Malone goal for WEEKS simply because he successfully stickhandled through like one guy before he buried it.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dude... it can be both things.

Penguins fans are lucky as hell in general and in particular when it comes to how ridiculously short their most recent "dark era" was (the 80s looked like they must have been truly miserable but even I'm not old enough to say with any confidence because I was a little kid) AND the like 02-05 teams were legitimately really, really bad. Like... it would be a season highlight when someone would score a goal or make a play that even near-40 Sid and Geno routinely do like every game several times.

People were talking about that Ryan Malone goal for WEEKS simply because he successfully stickhandled through like one guy before he buried it.

Yeah. That's how most NHL teams are for 50% of a decade.

Those teams had hope and still elite talent like Kovalev and Lemeiux.

03-04 was the only disaster year. Penguins fans that act like they lived through hell. They had 3 bad years and at the end of every single one they got a future Hall of Famer and extremely high potential prospect.

01-02 is like.. what most hockey teams are.

 

[SomeDude]

We needed a roster player back, likely to fill the whole and likely for cap reasons as well. Do you have proof that there were MORE picks and prospects on the table in the trade discussions? It's entirely possible that if Dubas refuses Bunting, the deal doesn't go down.

We didn’t need a roster player back. Why would we? Trading Jake was giving up on the season. We could have just gotten paid to take some other warm body with an expiring contract from someone needing to make room.

Who cares if the deal would have fallen through? It’s not like they overpaid for him. Dubas favored quantity over quality, which I think is dumb, but whatever.

My issue is that we did not get a premium asset to take on Bunting’s contract like it would have cost the Canes to any other team. Dubas got him because he had him before and thought he was good. He also should have known that Sullivan would never let Bunting play the way he’s most useful, like a rat.

 

[SEALBound]

We didn’t need a roster player back. Why would we? Trading Jake was giving up on the season. We could have just gotten paid to take some other warm body with an expiring contract from someone needing to make room.

Who cares if the deal would have fallen through? It’s not like they overpaid for him. Dubas favored quantity over quality, which I think is dumb, but whatever.

My issue is that we did not get a premium asset to take on Bunting’s contract like it would have cost the Canes to any other team. Dubas got him because he had him before and thought he was good. He also should have known that Sullivan would never let Bunting play the way he’s most useful, like a rat.

Dubas and Jake also hurt value by not being willing to talk extension, making him a pure rental. Not too often a pure rental (knowingly) bring back more than that.

What's the "premium" asset you were looking for? A late 1st? In shitty draft? We had 42 and 44, so you're squeaking over 10-15 slots in a garbage free-for-all? Okay. Premium blue-chip prospect? No one is giving up their premium blue-chips for a rental. Point out whose done that in recent memory.

Fact is, looking back, we all over-valued what a pure rental Guentzel would bring back. Bunting likely go out next TDL for a 3rd. Say he does. That means we get Pono, Koivunen, Cruz, Brunicke, and a 3rd for a rental Guentzel. Five assets is hard to gripe about. Given what I've seen from Pono and Brunicke, I'm just fine with the trade. I don't think 42ov vs 30ov is going to make or break us. Who specifically take 27 to 32 are you made about not getting?

 

[Gurglesons]

Well. If 2nd round picks are that great. Carolina turned their 1s into two seconds. So we could've had Brunicke and another pick.

 

[SomeDude]

Dubas and Jake also hurt value by not being willing to talk extension, making him a pure rental. Not too often a pure rental (knowingly) bring back more than that.

What's the "premium" asset you were looking for? A late 1st? In shitty draft? We had 42 and 44, so you're squeaking over 10-15 slots in a garbage free-for-all? Okay. Premium blue-chip prospect? No one is giving up their premium blue-chips for a rental. Point out whose done that in recent memory.

Fact is, looking back, we all over-valued what a pure rental Guentzel would bring back. Bunting likely go out next TDL for a 3rd. Say he does. That means we get Pono, Koivunen, Cruz, Brunicke, and a 3rd for a rental Guentzel. Five assets is hard to gripe about. Given what I've seen from Pono and Brunicke, I'm just fine with the trade. I don't think 42ov vs 30ov is going to make or break us. Who specifically take 27 to 32 are you made about not getting?

I’m saying taking on Bunting with 2 years left and 4.5 cap hit, and as bad as he is, should have cost the Canes an extra asset on top of the sack of magic beans we got for Jake.

It’s quite likely the Canes got the 2 most valuable assets in that deal: Jake and out of Bunting’s deal. Given we got paid a 3rd and 6th to take on Glass when he only had 1 year left at 2 million less, it should have cost the Canes at least a 2nd, if not a 1st, to get out of the Bunting deal at that time.

Bunting is not returning a 3rd barring some miraculous revival of his game. He’s like Beauvillier, who gets traded for a 5th every year.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

And coaches.

I think there is something in the train of thought that Dubas has done a decent job course correcting this year. But only decent. Like... these are all very safe, middle-of-the-road moves. And last year was an unmitigated disaster in which he roped the team into not one but two malodorous contracts the likes of which trump any stupid thing Ron Hextall did. So... like... what is that? Below average if we're being charitable?

The team needed a bold GM with a lot of energy and a unwavering vision in a DISTINCT direction. Not this haphazard scatterbrained approach that even when decisive leans towards "safe."

My biggest disappointment with Dubas (other than him refusing to fire Sullivan) is he hasn't even constructed the type of team he typically tried to build in Toronto. In TO, he seemed to prioritize skill and creativity with the signings/trades he made, building essentially an offensive team that could score with the best of them. Where he went wrong was he didn't add enough "bite" and his teams ended up being high scorers who couldn't handle playoff intensity.

It's like he course corrected with the Pens in the complete opposite direction where there's almost zero skill and creativity among the players he brought in/signed and everything is just muckers and grinders. So instead of an exciting regular season team that gets shit kicked in the playoffs, we've got a boring regular season team that can't even make the playoffs.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

My biggest disappointment with Dubas (other than him refusing to fire Sullivan) is he hasn't even constructed the type of team he typically tried to build in Toronto. In TO, he seemed to prioritize skill and creativity with the signings/trades he made, building essentially an offensive team that could score with the best of them. Where he went wrong was he didn't add enough "bite" and his teams ended up being high scorers who couldn't handle playoff intensity.

It's like he course corrected with the Pens in the complete opposite direction where there's almost zero skill and creativity among the players he brought in/signed and everything is just muckers and grinders. So instead of an exciting regular season team that gets shit kicked in the playoffs, we've got a boring regular season team that can't even make the playoffs.

I think that's Sullivan giving him his wish list TBH.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think that's Sullivan giving him his wish list TBH.

Which is wild to me how often GMs have deferred to Sullivan's choice in team construction. And by "wild" I mean "f***ing stupid".

 

[Andy99]

I think that's Sullivan giving him his wish list TBH.

Just going to say the same…the difference is he’s listening to our real GM, Mike Sullivan…

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Which is wild to me how often GMs have deferred to Sullivan's choice in team construction. And by "wild" I mean "f***ing stupid".

Well it depends on who you ask.

The local media dullards would insist that poor Mikey NEVER gets the roster he wants and it's all the GMs fault. Or Malkin's. Depends.

 

[SEALBound]

I’m saying taking on Bunting with 2 years left and 4.5 cap hit, and as bad as he is, should have cost the Canes an extra asset on top of the sack of magic beans we got for Jake.

It’s quite likely the Canes got the 2 most valuable assets in that deal: Jake and out of Bunting’s deal. Given we got paid a 3rd and 6th to take on Glass when he only had 1 year left at 2 million less, it should have cost the Canes at least a 2nd, if not a 1st, to get out of the Bunting deal at that time.

Bunting is not returning a 3rd barring some miraculous revival of his game. He’s like Beauvillier, who gets traded for a 5th every year.

I don't think anyone thought Carolina needed to pay to get out of Bunting's contract though. If we needed to take cap back in the deal, he was a good option based on what else Carolina might have offered.

I think you are doing two things - I think you're angry about the trade based off of Bunting's performance THIS year and you're making connections and assumptions that are grounded in reality.

But I mean, the deal happened. Whatever. It is what it is. Why people let it keep them up at night is beyond me.