Yeah Sullivan Sucks, but Dubas needs to be talked about too...

[Bishop7979]

Ron Hextall was smart enough to not trade 1sts because he didn't fully believe in this team. That's what I meant when he did nothing. He didn't move any pieces that would contribute to us being any better than we were when he was here and he didn't move any futures that would damage our rebuild. That's why he was fired. The fans demanded more action.

We are entering a rebuild and Dubas' two biggest trades have resulted in us losing a top end 1st round prospect and not returning anything of value for that rebuild when moving what will likely be our best trade asset in Guentzel.



It doesn't. Dubas decided he was going to attempt to win now and allocated a ton of cap to a bunch of terrible long term options and then gave up picks to cycle out players he didn't believe could win now. Then he legitimately shifted that narrative within 12 months to the point we are now the worst team in the league.

But it's obvious you just want to blame someone that isn't here.

Hextall deserved to be fired. Hextall was a medicore GM. Hextall made some bad decisions. But none of them had lasting effects on the franchise. Matheson, Marino, McCann and Rodrigues are doing nothing to prolong competitive hockey in Pittsburgh.

Losing a pick that turned into Sam Dickinson is the type of move that potentially sets back the Penguins 2-3 years in their rebuild. That is why Dubas gets more hate.

The pick wasn't Sam Dickerson that was the 11th overall, the pens pick was helenius a finish forward and moving back 3 spaces cost the sharks a second round pick on top of the 14th overall, so let's stop pretending we lost out on Dickerson.

The rest of the first round was kind of a toss up, and honestly if we had the 14th I'd have rather traded back about 6 spots to pick the kid the bruins took, but that's beside the point.

Every move has consequences down the line. Hextalls failure during years where they should have been competitive changes the trajectory of the team and it has cost assets to attempt to correct.

You weren't just getting EK, you were dropping granlund/Petry/ruutta. Your not giving up a 3rd to dump mcginns contract, your not burning a 2nd to fill the gap left wide open by trading McCann.

And adding a guy like McCann and the promoting him to top six is the exact thing that the caps do that everyone says pens should have done.

 

[Gurglesons]

The pick wasn't Sam Dickerson that was the 11th overall, the pens pick was helenius a finish forward and moving back 3 spaces cost the sharks a second round pick on top of the 14th overall, so let's stop pretending we lost out on Dickerson.

The rest of the first round was kind of a toss up, and honestly if we had the 14th I'd have rather traded back about 6 spots to pick the kid the bruins took, but that's beside the point.

Every move has consequences down the line. Hextalls failure during years where they should have been competitive changes the trajectory of the team and it has cost assets to attempt to correct.

You weren't just getting EK, you were dropping granlund/Petry/ruutta. Your not giving up a 3rd to dump mcginns contract, your not burning a 2nd to fill the gap left wide open by trading McCann.

And adding a guy like McCann and the promoting him to top six is the exact thing that the caps do that everyone says pens should have done.

The Penguins pick was packaged to get Dickinson.

A creative GM can do that. Grier is creative. He's willing to lose deals on paper to do what is right for the team.

Kyle is another Kevin Adams type.

I honestly don't care about Jared McCann. Go argue with a wall about that.

He's a nothing burger and the current group of Penguins fans who act like he's this big miss are the same ones that were absolutely burying him when I defended him through two seasons where he would go like 20+ games with one or two 5v5 goals.

 

[Bishop7979]

The Penguins pick was packaged to get Dickinson.

A creative GM can do that. Grier is creative. He's willing to lose deals on paper to do what is right for the team.

Kyle is another Kevin Adams type.

I honestly don't care about Jared McCann. Go argue with a wall about that.

He's a nothing burger and the current group of Penguins fans who act like he's this big miss are the same ones that were absolutely burying him when I defended him through two seasons where he would go like 20+ games with one or two 5v5 goals.

Jared maccan is like a 30 or more goal 65plus pt center at 27 yrs old, that's not a "nothing burger". I was right there with you defending mccann and was calling out Sullivan for not using him correctly and saying back then that he didn't know how to work with young creative skilled players. If memory serves we had to watch two seasons of Jason zucker putting up single digit goals alongside Malkin while McCann played third line defensive starts.

God damn Sullivan

And up until this off-season you could have afforded sid, Geno, rust, McCann, Jake, rackell. You would have needed to lose one this past off-season, or just not spent so heavily at d (no karlsson) and/or actually used some cheaper kids in the bottom six instead of paying something like a combined 6 mil for Hayes/acari/nieto, but you could have made that top six work because you'd have 3 years to plan ahead.

And running something like that and a 2.7 mil OPP 3rd line with gruden and cheap grinders on the 4th the team would have been better off this year and up through next when mccann would need to be extended.

Like you said, a creative gm can make things work

 

[Gurglesons]

Jared maccan is like a 30 or more goal 65plus pt center at 27 yrs old, that's not a "nothing burger". I was right there with you defending mccann and was calling out Sullivan for not using him correctly and saying back then that he didn't know how to work with young creative skilled players. If memory serves we had to watch two seasons of Jason zucker putting up single digit goals alongside Malkin while McCann played third line defensive starts.

God damn Sullivan

And Granlund is 18th in league scoring on a bad team.

People need to realize McCann is producing because Seattle f***ing sucks.

He's probably their best forward given how Beniers has fallen off the last year and a half.

I like McCann, but on a contender he's not scoring 40.

Also, like.. Dubas lost him for nothing! At least Hexy got a pick and a prospect lol.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think letting McCann be a meatshield for Toronto while hoary old Jeff Carter was protected was a misuse of a good asset but let's not get it too twisted... McCann was not going to succeed here.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think letting McCann be a meatshield for Toronto while hoary old Jeff Carter was protected was a misuse of a good asset but let's not get it too twisted... McCann was not going to succeed here.

If they just would've let Carter walk after that year, it would've been fine.

The biggest issue was extending Jeff Carter. Which once again 80% of this board argued was a good move at the time with you and I lol.

Confirmed with Link: - Jeff Carter signs two-year extension with Penguins

Jeff Carter sticking around for a bit. And now from the Penguins:

forums.hfboards.com

For rememberance purposes.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If they just would've let Carter walk after that year, it would've been fine.

The biggest issue was extending Jeff Carter. Which once again 80% of this board argued was a good move at the time with you and I lol.

I do not take much pleasure from being correct about what should be extremely obvious things.

 

[Gurglesons]

Wild....

 

[metalan2]

At this point, there is no way Dubas is in charge and I wouldn't doubt if he can even pick any of the players we signed.

 

[Gurglesons]

maybe you guys doubting my read of the Dubas situation should understand.

 

[metalan2]

The Penguins pick was packaged to get Dickinson.

A creative GM can do that. Grier is creative. He's willing to lose deals on paper to do what is right for the team.

Kyle is another Kevin Adams type.

I honestly don't care about Jared McCann. Go argue with a wall about that.

He's a nothing burger and the current group of Penguins fans who act like he's this big miss are the same ones that were absolutely burying him when I defended him through two seasons where he would go like 20+ games with one or two 5v5 goals.

He's a 30-40 goal scorer that's gets between 60-70 points a year.

He would instantly be out second most productive forward and best goal scorer.

McCann was trending that way with us, but Sullivan buried him. With him, we had the number one power play in the league.

That was the most egregious mistake of the Sullivan era.

 

[Gurglesons]

He's a 30-40 goal scorer that's gets between 60-70 points a year.

He would instantly be out second most productive forward and best goal scorer.

McCann was trending that way with us, but Sullivan buried him. With him, we had the number one power play in the league.

That was the most egregious mistake of the Sullivan era.

Yeah, because he's their best forward.

Now granted. We can use the same argument of that's why we should've kept Granlund, because he'd be our best forward too.

But, like.. I just don't get the butt huffing about McCann.

 

[Stringer Bell]

At this point, there is no way Dubas is in charge and I wouldn't doubt if he can even pick any of the players we signed.

I would have to assume so? I'm a Leafs fan, and knowing Dubas, he would fire Sullivan and hire his own guy in a heart beat if he could. Which means...he can't.

I still think Dubas is a below average GM regardless, but Sullivan still being around is obviously not his decision at all.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I would have to assume so? I'm a Leafs fan, and knowing Dubas, he would fire Sullivan and hire his own guy in a heart beat if he could. Which means...he can't.

I still think Dubas is a below average GM regardless, but Sullivan still being around is obviously not his decision at all.

If this ends up truly being the case then I sure hope Penguins fans complain bitterly how bad this team screwed them and the core over for at least the next couple decades or so. Because what an absolute ratf***ing a decision like that would be.

"Let's make sure to only hire a GM that agrees to keep our pet coach"

Yikes. That's about as backwards and self-defeating of a stance that you can take in the NHL. Which would back up your premise as I get the impression that FSG has no f***ing clue about hockey or how the league works.

 

[Gurglesons]

I would have to assume so? I'm a Leafs fan, and knowing Dubas, he would fire Sullivan and hire his own guy in a heart beat if he could. Which means...he can't.

I still think Dubas is a below average GM regardless, but Sullivan still being around is obviously not his decision at all.

lol. Why would Dubas fire Sullivan?

As soon as Sullivan is gone who is the fanbase going to start blaming?

 

[Darren McCord]

Yeah, because he's their best forward.

Now granted. We can use the same argument of that's why we should've kept Granlund, because he'd be our best forward too.

But, like.. I just don't get the butt huffing about McCann.

Its that single move. It is more that he aged the team drastically in one offseason. That was bad asset management.

McCann - Carter
Matheson - Petry
Marino - Rutta

McCann, Matheson and Marino would all still have value in the league. The others are pretty much out or have no value.

He started them down a path of bad asset management and dubas is tanking it even more.

 

[Gurglesons]

Its that single move. It is more that he aged the team drastically in one offseason. That was bad asset management.

McCann - Carter
Matheson - Petry
Marino - Rutta

McCann, Matheson and Marino would all still have value in the league. The others are pretty much out or have no value.

He started them down a path of bad asset management and dubas is tanking it even more.

We got a 21 year old top 20 1st round pick and a 3rd for Marino.

McCann was replaced with Evan Rodrigues who just won a cup.

None of these players had value. Dubas literally gave away McCann for nothing after paying for him.

Penguins fans are silly if they think any of those pieces would have added assets. Marino just got moved for 2 2nds.

All of those players are nothing burgers.

If you want to be critical of Hextall for asset management, the real flaws were not moving Rust and especially Zucker for returns.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

People miss McCann because they see "40 goal scorer" and get all hot and bothered. I get it.

But hey look at it this way... McCann would have just been peddled off for a future second round pick, a trash roster player and some mid prospects anyway. Just like the last 40 goal scorer was.

 

[Gurglesons]

People miss McCann because they see "40 goal scorer" and get all hot and bothered. I get it.

But hey look at it this way... McCann would have just been peddled off for a future second round pick, a trash roster player and some mid prospects anyway. Just like the last 40 goal scorer was.

I don't think anyone is paying up for Jared McCann. Toffoli is a very similar player and like you said he has returned like a 2nd in consecutive years.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think anyone is paying up for Jared McCann. Toffoli is a very similar player and like you said he has returned like a 2nd in consecutive years.

Well no wonder (recent vintage) Penguins fans are upset, then.

That's a second round pick, buddy! The good stuff!

 

[Fordy]

They weren't though. When Hextall took over we were 23rd in the league.

JR was allegedly trying to make some big move.

If he goes and trades Kris Letang that spring, I doubt they go anywhere.

maybe statistically they weren’t in a good spot. the foundation of talent was too high to ever be this bad even if you made every wrong decision intentionally with the roster

 

[Gurglesons]

maybe statistically they weren’t in a good spot. the foundation of talent was too high to ever be this bad even if you made every wrong decision intentionally with the roster

It seems really weird to say this about the 2020-21 squad and then act like Hextall screwed everything up then.

Reality is the Penguins have had the same level of talent for the last 3-4 years excluding this year and the core just got old.

 

[Fordy]

View attachment 935088

maybe you guys doubting my read of the Dubas situation should understand.

got to give you that one

 

[Gurglesons]

Like are we really going to pretend a defense of...

Dumo - Letang
Matheson - Ceci
Petts - Marino

Was that much better than a defense of..

Dumo - Letang
Petts - Petry
POJ - Rutta

A top six of...

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
Zucker - Malkin - Kapanen

Was that much diferent than a....

Top six of...

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
Zucker - Malkin - Kapanen...

 

[Fordy]

It seems really weird to say this about the 2020-21 squad and then act like Hextall screwed everything up then.

Reality is the Penguins have had the same level of talent for the last 3-4 years excluding this year and the core just got old.

oh that’s pretty much what i’m saying. i would have been full throatedly supporting jr shuffling the deck every month into 2026. and he didn’t get fired. he quit. the core was strong and couldn’t lose more than a certain amount of games, as a law of physics