Player Discussion Would you trade Kakko/Laf right now?

[SnowblindNYR]

Jason Robertson is just as slow as Kakko and LaFreniere, possibly slower, and has 37 points in 30 games in his second full NHL season right now.

It's not as simple as just drafting fast guys. This team would draft a good skater projected to score 80 points a season and he'd end up becoming Enver Lisin.

I don't even think it's a drafting issue at this point. It's not like the Rangers went way off the board with Kakko, LaFreniere, Chytil, Kravtsov or Andersson (maybe a tiny bit with Andersson but nothing crazy). This team clearly has a problem developing forwards once we've chosen them and I don't think it's as simple a problem as everyone being a slow skater.

Callahan, Dubinsky, Stepan, JT Miller, and Kreider were all developed well, even though Miller improved with Vancouver. Maybe something changed organizationally but I don't buy that these guys can't develop. Also, Zucc was arguably developed here.

 

[Chaels Arms]

Callahan, Dubinsky, Stepan, JT Miller, and Kreider were all developed well, even though Miller improved with Vancouver. Maybe something changed organizationally but I don't buy that these guys can't develop. Also, Zucc was arguably developed here.

None of the players you reference "developed" recently. That's an entirely different generation of Rangers if we're talking about their development years. Callahan and Dubinsky are retired, Stepan probably should be retired. Miller and Kreider yes, agreed, but even with Miller he became a better offensive producer after he left the Rangers than he ever was with us. And yes, we developed Zucc very well, other than John Tortorella almost destroying his NHL career.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

None of the players you reference "developed" recently. That's an entirely different generation of Rangers if we're talking about their development years. Callahan and Dubinsky are retired, Stepan probably should be retired. Miller and Kreider yes, agreed, but even with Miller he became a better offensive producer after he left the Rangers than he ever was with us. And yes, we developed Zucc very well, other than John Tortorella almost destroying his NHL career.

So what changed?

 

[Chaels Arms]

So what changed?

No idea.

I think part of it is that all the players you named (with the exception of Zuccarello) were more or less solid mid-lineup forwards with good two way games. None of those players (with the exception of Zuccarello) were ever dynamic offensive contributors. Miller became one literally almost as soon as he left the Rangers which again begs the question of why we rarely saw that type of game from Miller when he was here.

I guess I should modify my initial statement - I think this team has a real problem developing skilled, offensive forwards.

 

[TheDirtyH]

So what changed?

well for one, none of those players played for the Rangers at 18 years old.

 

[LOFIN]

Why would you trade either of these guys when they have tanked their value so much? The guy in the other end probably still views them as potential star players, but sure as hell won't give you such value right now.

You trade either of those now, it will look worse than Buch for Blais and 2nd. Much worse.

 

[ecemleafs]

no. theyve ruined any trade value they had. were far better off hoping they figure it out. neither are fast enough to be a star player, but both need to stop playing like terrified p***yes and actually assert themselves and take players on with the skill they clearly do have.

 

[TominNC]

I'm not even looking for them to star or even production.
You just want to see glimpses of them being elite in some facet of the game.
You could combine the "skill sets" of both of them and you still wouldn't even get a decent player.

Yet.

 

[Savant]

well for one, none of those players played for the Rangers at 18 years old.

I am not even kidding when I say I want to go back to the years for trading the first round picks and signing Euros and NCAA free agents. Those players did so much better here.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Why would you trade either of these guys when they have tanked their value so much? The guy in the other end probably still views them as potential star players, but sure as hell won't give you such value right now.

You trade either of those now, it will look worse than Buch for Blais and 2nd. Much worse.

Edge claims there were better offers out there for Buch. And I get their value tanked but if it continues to tank we'll be lucky to get a Lias type of return for them.

 

[dangsLITE]

RIP Othmann then

Othmann's not slow though. If he does improve his skating, his speed might be a huge asset for him.

 

[JMan74]

For the right guy yes. Not a borderline top 6 guy but a legit top liner or potential top liner absolutely. Not a rental either or an older player 32+ . Unsure how we make it work cap wise but the return would not to be a legit 30 goal scorer type we can keep for more than 1 year. Is that Tarasenko, JT Miller is borderline as he isnt quite a 30 goal scorer but he has a very good all around game and we could get him for a couple years

 

[KingDeathMetal]

Compare Laf and Kakko's ES pts per 60 numbers to other star player comparables from their draft year at the same ages. Huberdeau, Rantanen, etc. They were putting up the same numbers at the same ages, only difference is that they were also getting PP time, and eventually their big break outs came at age 21 or 22.

Our kids need minutes, they need powerplay time, and they need more seasons. There's no reason they can't break out under these circumstances.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Need to change whoever is in charge of developing these young forwards. It can't be that now 5 out of 5 young forward first round prospects have underachieved (ok maybe Chytil is border line) Just can't be!!! I refuse to believe that at least one or two of these kids don't have the talent to be special right now.

Tanner Glass and Jed Ortmeyer. Guys that don’t know anything about being a 1st or 2ed line forward. Rangers need to improve their development. This is not a coincidence

 

[mas0764]

This is some ridiculous ass thread. Like disintegration, implosion type shit.

Basically the "EA be a GM", "win right now" crowd being incapable of being patient, again, like every day for the last two years.

I say one thing, we threw them into the fire too soon. Sure, their draft position and ego's certainly forced them on the big club, but the FO should have been patient.

@Machinehead I disagree on the 20min vs 13 mins argument you made in a past post. Laf and Kakko should have played top-6 minutes in the AHL/anywhere and be p/g players.

Instead we certainly crushed some confidence, having them play 3rd line minutes and what not.

I defer to Detroit again. They take their time. The kid plays in the NHL when he's absolutely ready to do so.

No one can tell me Seider would have profited from 15m in the NHL the same as playing 20+ in the AHL and SHL.

Almost as ridiculous as the suggestions that we trade guys like Nils, Kravtsov, Jones, Robertson, etc, for rentals.

 

[Scott r]

One of these 2 will be out of the league in a couple years or a 3rd to 4th liner. Kakko might go play in Europe

 

[mas0764]

The fact that both these guys were seen as can't miss and both of them are in fact currently missing means the problem is almost unquestionably with the New York Rangers.

Add in the fact that Lias busted, Kravtsov is in the process of busting, and Chytil has also stagnated, and only a complete idiot would think that we've drafted 5 first round forward busts in a row.

There is a god damn problem with the organization and it can abso-f***ing-lutely be traced to the ridiculous grit demands they place a premium on, which is some backwards ass 1990s outdated nonsense that didn't even really work back then unless you were the Devils.

 

[mas0764]

Imo it’d be stupid. Live and die with them at this point. The odds that they’re both just not even able to score average numbers in this league are insanely small. Bring someone in to help them, take this as the sign that this organization doesn’t support their young players enough, so whatever you have to. They’re the future of this team - trading them for “now” pieces just leaves a dark dark future

If they fail you might as well go back into the lottery.

It's that simple.

All this talk about maybe we have a first window without Kakko and Laf is completely nonsense.

This team is the 2008-12 Rangers at best if Kakko and Lafreniere don't turn into studs.

This team isn't winning a Cup riding a goalie and a strong defensive core with a Gaborik and Richards and no other elite forwards. That formula doesn't win. It's proven beyond all doubt. It's a second round exit playoff team.

We were supposed to be building a long term Cup winner, not another second round exit team that doesn't ever win. If Kakko and Laf are misses, go back and start at square 1 again. And you should do it soon so at least Fox is still here when we have enough talent on the backside years from now.

 

[McRanger92]

Lafreniere only just recently played a full seasons worth of games so were not close to a decision point on him. I've also liked what I've seen from him, especially playing with Strome/Goodrow

With Kakko, on the other hand, a decision of some kind is going to come this summer because he needs a new contract. Its very concerning that he has stagnated despite the fact that he's been locked into top line minutes all season, its not like he hasn't been given a big opportunity.

 

[RangersFan1994]

The fact that both these guys were seen as can't miss and both of them are in fact currently missing means the problem is almost unquestionably with the New York Rangers.

Add in the fact that Lias busted, Kravtsov is in the process of busting, and Chytil has also stagnated, and only a complete idiot would think that we've drafted 5 first round forward busts in a row.

There is a god damn problem with the organization and it can abso-f***ing-lutely be traced to the ridiculous grit demands they place a premium on, which is some backwards ass 1990s outdated nonsense that didn't even really work back then unless you were the Devils.

When you have former defensive forwards as part of player development that is an issue. Jed Ortmeyer and Tanner Glass. Enough said. Watch Othmann become a Ryan Hartman 3rd line forward instead of a elite 2ed line power forward Brayden Schenn just using examples

 

[mas0764]

Lafreniere only just recently played a full seasons worth of games so were not close to a decision point on him. I've also liked what I've seen from him, especially playing with Strome/Goodrow

With Kakko, on the other hand, a decision of some kind is going to come this summer because he needs a new contract. Its very concerning that he has stagnated despite the fact that he's been locked into top line minutes all season, its not like he hasn't been given a big opportunity.

There's no decision.

You buy out someone like Kreider before trading Kakko (unless someone is giving you Nathan MacKinnon or something for Kakko - in which case you still buy out Kreider to fit him in).

Yes, that is patently ridiculous, but so is any suggestion of moving on from Kakko.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

There's no decision.

You buy out someone like Kreider before trading Kakko.

Unless someone is giving you Nathan MacKinnon or something for Kakko (in which case you still buy out Kreider to fit him in).

Yes, that is patently ridiculous, but so is any suggestion of moving on from Kakko.

Buy out Kreider with the way he's been playing this season, lol. Let Kakko prove it first before we start "buying out" players like that.

 

[mas0764]

Among regulars on the roster at F, at 5v5 Kakko ranks 1st in CF%, FF% (only F over 50%), SF% (only F over 50%), xGF% (only F over 50%). He's 2nd in GoalsFor%, behind only Blais (who played 14 games). And that GF% could easily be higher if the team was shooting better than 7.69% with him on the ice

Laf is 5th on the team in goals, but all the goals he's scoring are the kind he's expected to score. He's shooting at 16.3% but his numbers aren't being boosted by ENGs or PP goals. Were the team's personnel different and he playing on PP1, his scoring numbers could very reasonably be expected to go up.

I don't think either of them have green lights to let it rip.

I'm frankly growing concerned with the coach again.

 

[McRanger92]

The fact that both these guys were seen as can't miss and both of them are in fact currently missing means the problem is almost unquestionably with the New York Rangers.

Add in the fact that Lias busted, Kravtsov is in the process of busting, and Chytil has also stagnated, and only a complete idiot would think that we've drafted 5 first round forward busts in a row.

There is a god damn problem with the organization and it can abso-f***ing-lutely be traced to the ridiculous grit demands they place a premium on, which is some backwards ass 1990s outdated nonsense that didn't even really work back then unless you were the Devils.

Bobrov & Quinn are the 2 biggest culprits of the slow development of these forwards imo. Weve heard rumblings for years that Bobrov was making these prospects promises about ice time and opportunity that brought on unreachable expectations from the players themselves and the fans.

Quinn's development philosophy set the team back years and may have irreparably damaged Kakko/Chytil. They play with no confidence and are terrified to make a mistake.

Something about developing forwards with this team is off, but for defenseman and goalies, they've seemingly done a great job of putting them in the best positions to succeed. The issue now is that development is no longer priority 1, winning is. And if Kakko/Chytil/Laf dont start contributing more to actually winning games, they could potentially be moved as they get more expensive.

 

[mas0764]

Buy out Kreider with the way he's been playing this season, lol. Let Kakko prove it first before we start "buying out" players like that.

Neither should happen; I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous the suggestion that we will need to trade Kakko because of cap space.

He's the one you make cap space for.

Period.

Again, if he and Lafreniere are busts, you should just head back into the lottery.

I'm not interested in watching a half decade of Chris Kreider being our third best forward and losing in the second round of the playoffs again and again.