Would you take Rasmus Dahlin over Adam Fox and Charlie McAvoy?

[Leafidelity]

Ill take every opportunity to laugh at the Sabres, but Dahlin is the genuine article. Very high on him and his trajectory. He always impresses me more than Fox or McAvoy when I see them.

 

[BB79]

if he (and to some extent, the Sabres as a whole) can avoid a second half slump,

The first half slump was way worse than the second half slump, but it all averaged out to a .500 season and missing the playoffs yet again. What's new?

 

[Liga]

Would you take Rasmus Dahlin over Adam Fox and Charlie McAvoy?

Fox and McAvoy better.

 

[HolyHagelin]

You say this like it's some absurd thing lol

It obviously is. I know +/- is passe these days, but

Dahlin is -68 on his career, and has only ever been + for one season (last).

Fox and McAvoy have never been - and are triple digits + for their careers.

There is enough sample size for all of these guys to say they have something to do with these numbers.

Anyway, yeah, Fox AINEC.

Ill take every opportunity to laugh at the Sabres, but Dahlin is the genuine article. Very high on him and his trajectory. He always impresses me more than Fox or McAvoy when I see them.

Julien Gauthier is always the most impressive looking dude on the ice.

 

[Raspewtin]

Dahlin is fantastic but no, wouldn't take him over either. and the "yes to both" votes are absolutely laughable.

 

[Machinehead]

Consistency is always overlooked in these discussions.

Last year, Dahlin had a legit Norris case, whereas this year, he's just very very good.

Adam Fox walked onto NHL ice a top 5 defenseman and never left the top 5.

 

[Aladyyn]

Consistency is always overlooked in these discussions.

Last year, Dahlin had a legit Norris case, whereas this year, he's just very very good.

Adam Fox walked onto NHL ice a top 5 defenseman and never left the top 5.

The difference between Dahlin's seasons is basically just forwards performance (bad finishing 5on5, generally anemic PP in front of him).

 

[tsujimoto74]

Consistency is always overlooked in these discussions.

Last year, Dahlin had a legit Norris case, whereas this year, he's just very very good.

Adam Fox walked onto NHL ice a top 5 defenseman and never left the top 5.

Massive difference in the quality of team surrounding them and the quality of coaching. If you have Dahlin and Fox swap places, I’m very confident this reasoning wouldn’t hold up.

 

[Machinehead]

The difference between Dahlin's seasons is basically just forwards performance (bad finishing 5on5, generally anemic PP in front of him).

Massive difference in the quality of team surrounding them and the quality of coaching. If you have Dahlin and Fox swap places, I’m very confident this reasoning wouldn’t hold up.

I don't subscribe to the "Fox is in a good environment" excuse.

He is the environment.

It's like saying Kucherov gets to play for the Lightning. Remove Kucherov and there's no Lightning.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I don't subscribe to the "Fox is in a good environment" excuse.

He is the environment.

It's like saying Kucherov gets to play for the Lightning. Remove Kucherov and there's no Lightning.

So you think the difference between Fox and Dahlin is #1 team in the NHL and can’t even make the playoffs? You think if they switch places and nothing else about either team changes, the teams flip places in the standings? Because I sure as f*** don’t.

 

[Machinehead]

So you think the difference between Fox and Dahlin is #1 team in the NHL and can’t even make the playoffs? You think if they switch places and nothing else about either team changes, the teams flip places in the standings? Because I sure as f*** don’t.

If they swap places, the Rangers probably not the #1 seed in league, no. Sorry.

And if you were to just Thanos Adam Fox, they're not the playoffs.

 

[HolyHagelin]

So you think the difference between Fox and Dahlin is #1 team in the NHL and can’t even make the playoffs? You think if they switch places and nothing else about either team changes, the teams flip places in the standings? Because I sure as f*** don’t.

In Fox’s first 2 seasons the Rangers were terrible. Fox managed to put up fantastic metrics and a combined +41.

Dahlin has been on teams that bad. His metrics sucked and he was a -.

 

[Aladyyn]

I don't subscribe to the "Fox is in a good environment" excuse.

He is the environment.

It's like saying Kucherov gets to play for the Lightning. Remove Kucherov and there's no Lightning.

My comment was just about Dahlin, no shade to Fox intended, he's the better player. I do think it's closer than you're saying though.

 

[Machinehead]

My comment was just about Dahlin, no shade to Fox intended, he's the better player. I do think it's closer than you're saying though.

I'm not throwing any shade on Dahlin and I'm not even saying it's "not close" per se. Dahlin is a top 10 defenseman EASILY, so they can't be that far apart.

Dahlin has Norris-level ability and he can outperform Fox in a given year.

My point was, these discussions are always so reactionary. This poll was posted with Dahlin coming off a huge year and I look at it like "well, yeah, Dahlin can be a top 3 defenseman any given year, but if Fox isn't, that's a bad year for him."

Yesterday, somebody was screaming at me that they would take Heiskanen over Fox because "look, his defensive metrics are just as good!" (and having like 20 fewer points, we just ignored that I guess).

And I'm just like, this year, yes. Welcome to being elite, Miro. Your card is in the mail. This is Adam, he lives here. Now I'm throwing shade.

It was just a general observation that getting the peak results among the players in the poll with consistency is overlooked in "who would you take?" discussions in favor of just reacting to the last thing you saw.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Fox will only play for the Rangers so what is the point of taking him if you're not the Rangers?
McAvoy is technically better than Dahlin but I'd take Dahlin based on age.

 

[Profet]

A second round pick by the Flames ends up a Norris winner. How sad is that?

I'm also wondering how Fox slipped through the cracks in the draft. Why wasn't he taken first overall. If scouts had a crystal ball, things would be so different.

What would the oilers look like had they reached to take Fox 3rd overall instead of Puljujarvi? there might have been a riot to fire Chiarelli in Edmonton.

Here is a good breakdown:

Mind Games With Adam Fox (Part 1)

How NYR's star D-man played a trick on me

jhanhky.substack.com

 

[HugeInTheShire]

A second round pick by the Flames ends up a Norris winner. How sad is that?

I'm also wondering how Fox slipped through the cracks in the draft. Why wasn't he taken first overall. If scouts had a crystal ball, things would be so different.

What would the oilers look like had they reached to take Fox 3rd overall instead of Puljujarvi? there might have been a riot to fire Chiarelli in Edmonton.

He only had eyes for the Rangers, he likely wouldn't have signed in Edmonton anyway.

 

[HolyHagelin]

Here is a good breakdown:

Mind Games With Adam Fox (Part 1)

How NYR's star D-man played a trick on me

jhanhky.substack.com

I forgot about this blog entirely; great stuff.

 

[Machinehead]

A second round pick by the Flames ends up a Norris winner. How sad is that?

I'm also wondering how Fox slipped through the cracks in the draft. Why wasn't he taken first overall. If scouts had a crystal ball, things would be so different.

What would the oilers look like had they reached to take Fox 3rd overall instead of Puljujarvi? there might have been a riot to fire Chiarelli in Edmonton.

This actually makes perfect sense to me. Fox isn't visually impressive. The first time I saw him, I thought he had no chance to make it. I argued with somebody in some WJC thread and my position was that he sucks.

You have to let him cook for like 50 games and then you notice that nothing bad happens when he's on the ice. And then when you're paying attention, you see why.

He has among the best positioning I've ever seen. He doesn't lay guys out because he's 5 foot nothing but he has the IQ and the strength to box out guys with a size advantage. The guy's with better defensive sticks, you can count on one hand.

Offensively, it's the standard fare. Phenomenal passer, good at keep-ins, good at the line in general, gets his shot through, knows exactly when to step up. The only weaknesses compared to other elite OFD is his skating is pretty bleh.

So like, he's kinda slow, very small, and he's not gonna deke through the whole team. His true standout skills are on the defensive side. It sounds like a guy that got drafted in round 4 and blossomed into a defensive specialist, but it's attached to point per game package. He's a really weird player.

If I were a GM in that draft, I wouldn't have taken him.

 

[Profet]

This actually makes perfect sense to me. Fox isn't visually impressive. The first time I saw him, I thought he had no chance to make it. I argued with somebody in some WJC thread and my position was that he sucks.

You have to let him cook for like 50 games and then you notice that nothing bad happens when he's on the ice. And then when you're paying attention, you see why.

He has among the best positioning I've ever seen. He doesn't lay guys out because he's 5 foot nothing but he has the IQ and the strength to box out guys with a size advantage. The guy's with better defensive sticks, you can count on one hand.

Offensively, it's the standard fare. Phenomenal passer, good at keep-ins, good at the line in general, gets his shot through, knows exactly when to step up. The only weaknesses compared to other elite OFD is his skating is pretty bleh.

So like, he's kinda slow, very small, and he's not gonna deke through the whole team. His true standout skills are on the defensive side. It sounds like a guy that got drafted in round 4 and blossomed into a defensive specialist, but it's attached to point per game package. He's a really weird player.

If I were a GM in that draft, I wouldn't have taken him.

Fox might be the best player in the league at holding onto the puck long enough to suck multiple defenders to him and then just magically getting the puck to a teammate to cause odd man situations elsewhere on the ice.

He does it from behind the defensive goal line, he does it at the offensive blue line.

It's amazing to watch, and if you aren't familiar with him, he looks like he's "lucky" to get out of these situations unscathed... and then you realize he's doing it intentionally and it just works.

 

[Machinehead]

Fox might be the best player in the league at holding onto the puck long enough to suck multiple defenders to him and then just magically getting the puck to a teammate to cause odd man situations elsewhere on the ice.

He does it from behind the defensive goal line, he does it at the offensive blue line.

It's amazing to watch, and if you aren't familiar with him, he looks like he's "lucky" to get out of these situations unscathed... and then you realize he's doing it intentionally and it just works.

Yes, he's also extremely elusive. On both sides of the puck.

Sometimes opponents will just pass right to him on the rush and look at him like "where the f*** did that guy come from?"

 

[acor]

By the end of this season any answer other than "over both" is going to look completely silly

lol.

 

[Sabresruletheschool]

The only sure fire fact is Fox plays on a better team. Dahlin plays on the youngest team in the league that can't score. Dahlin plays almost all of his minutes with other U24 defenseman and until the last half of this season, terrible goal tending. Fox plays on a veteran playoff team with a Vezina caliber goalie. I mean, no sh*t he's going to look better and may have better stats. But the eye test will tell you Dahlin has way more tools then Fox does and on equal teams, I take Dahlin all day long.

 

[Profet]

The only sure fire fact is Fox plays on a better team. Dahlin plays on the youngest team in the league that can't score. Dahlin plays almost all of his minutes with other U24 defenseman and until the last half of this season, terrible goal tending. Fox plays on a veteran playoff team with a Vezina caliber goalie. I mean, no sh*t he's going to look better and may have better stats. But the eye test will tell you Dahlin has way more tools then Fox does and on equal teams, I take Dahlin all day long.

Or maybe Fox makes his team better than Dahlin?

Fox is never going to be a flashy Makar/Dahlin/Q. Hughes. If you watch him and are expecting that, you're going to be disappointed. That's never been his game.

That said, he is the smartest hockey player in the game today and he makes that work for him in ways you would never think possible.

 

[The Undertaker]

The only sure fire fact is Fox plays on a better team. Dahlin plays on the youngest team in the league that can't score. Dahlin plays almost all of his minutes with other U24 defenseman and until the last half of this season, terrible goal tending. Fox plays on a veteran playoff team with a Vezina caliber goalie. I mean, no sh*t he's going to look better and may have better stats. But the eye test will tell you Dahlin has way more tools then Fox does and on equal teams, I take Dahlin all day long.

I'm guessing you'd take Bure over Crosby based on "tools" too. The most important tool is between the ears and Fox's is elite...Dahlin's is slightly above average.