Would Walter Gretzky, as a member the working class, will be able to afford hockey today?

vadim sharifijanov

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maybe worth pointing out that we just saw a cup winner whose three best skaters were all the kids of pros. two are second generation NHL all-stars and the father of their captain and best player had a twenty year career in european pro leagues.
 

Ianturnedbull

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every time i think about walter gretzky the song wichita lineman comes into my head

as a union guy in trades he probably made good money. i’m sure midcareer plumbers make more money than my fairly comfortable college educated, has an office with a window self.

but i still wonder, because i have no idea what brantford is like, or if the 2024 walter would be living in a town like brantford or somewhere else, would he have a house? or a house with a big enough backyard to make a rink at the scale that a talented kid can become a wayne freakin’ gretzky?

asking as a guy in vancouver in a dual income household clearing $175k in a condo. i obviously can’t build my kid a rink, for numerous reasons.
the answer is yes, but Phyllis would have to work full time.
 

Budz

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The amount of money we pay yearly is pretty significant for a 14yo travel kid.

I don’t see how many families can afford it.
 
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The Hanging Jowl

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Based on my experience with my kid in rep hockey, it has nothing to do with money. There is a schmoozing factor, but mostly, it's if the kid has the will to do it. My kid was very talented but just didn't have that drive. Other kids weren't as talented but were willing to battle to the death for the puck. I'm obviously biased saying that but I can also say that the most talented kids in the 2003 age group here in Burlington (by far) never went anywhere. Shane Wright wasn't even on the radar compared to those kids talent-wise but he went No. 1 overall. It all comes down to battle instincts.

On a side note, I was in an airport in Halifax about 15 years ago in line at the checkin. There was this weird dotard type walking in and out of line, singing some tune and I said "whatever Walter Gretzky" under my breath. On the plane the guy sat across the aisle from me and I thought "Wait a minute, that *is* Walter Gretzky!" (it was)
 

Acallabeth

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maybe worth pointing out that we just saw a cup winner whose three best skaters were all the kids of pros. two are second generation NHL all-stars and the father of their captain and best player had a twenty year career in european pro leagues.
And (sorry to repeat myself) their star goalie's parents were a factory worker and a coal miner, but he still became a pro because his city has a government-ran hockey club with an affiliated hockey school.
 
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Ianturnedbull

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Personal finance and self-discipline are skills you need to be part of this culture of hockey.

Buying new everything and sticks that cost $300 (as an example) is just insane. Why hockey parents cave in to buying all this is beyond me.

Outside of the cost of equipment is the organization fees. I strongly believe that so much of what is paid is hidden for organizers to benefit. No doubt it costs money to maintain indoor arenas, referees, etc. It just doesn't all seem above board.


Back in 1998 I couldn't believe how much it was to join a men's league soccer team in the Hamilton area. You cannot tell me that a team of 16 players (8 teams in total), each paying $500, was just enough to cover grounds keeping + referees. Someone at the top benefited from this.
 

Craig Ludwig

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Based on my experience with my kid in rep hockey, it has nothing to do with money. There is a schmoozing factor, but mostly, it's if the kid has the will to do it. My kid was very talented but just didn't have that drive. Other kids weren't as talented but were willing to battle to the death for the puck. I'm obviously biased saying that but I can also say that the most talented kids in the 2003 age group here in Burlington (by far) never went anywhere. Shane Wright wasn't even on the radar compared to those kids talent-wise but he went No. 1 overall. It all comes down to battle instincts.

On a side note, I was in an airport in Halifax about 15 years ago in line at the checkin. There was this weird dotard type walking in and out of line, singing some tune and I said "whatever Walter Gretzky" under my breath. On the plane the guy sat across the aisle from me and I thought "Wait a minute, that *is* Walter Gretzky!" (it was)
I tend to disagree, I have coached and seen many kids come through the system all the way up to the NHL. The ones that make it are almost always born incredibly talented. They're not only great at hockey, they win championships as a running back on a football team, are the best on the lacrosse team, great golfers, can hit the baseball a ton, etc. You can practice hockey for the famous 10,000 hours, and be a real hard worker and have battle instincts, but if you don't have that gift of talent, not going to make it to the pros.

And to answer if Gretzky would have made it today, if you're that talented the teams/organizations will pay everything for you, if makes their program look good in the long run. Also, every parent will offer to help out the star kid on the team.
 

The Hanging Jowl

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I tend to disagree, I have coached and seen many kids come through the system all the way up to the NHL. The ones that make it are almost always born incredibly talented. They're not only great at hockey, they win championships as a running back on a football team, are the best on the lacrosse team, great golfers, can hit the baseball a ton, etc. You can practice hockey for the famous 10,000 hours, and be a real hard worker and have battle instincts, but if you don't have that gift of talent, not going to make it to the pros.

And to answer if Gretzky would have made it today, if you're that talented the teams/organizations will pay everything for you, if makes their program look good in the long run. Also, every parent will offer to help out the star kid on the team.

"Also, every parent will offer to help out the star kid on the team."

Wow, that's not my experience. I saw nothing but jealous, bitter parents willing to throw any kid under the bus if it got their kid an extra shift or two. *Especially* when is came to the talented kids. Feel free to look up online the vileness Shane Wright and his family were subjected to by other parents in Burlington. I've always been rooting for him because of this. Sorry to go on about this city and age group, it's just the situation I know best.
 
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Jumptheshark

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every time i think about walter gretzky the song wichita lineman comes into my head

as a union guy in trades he probably made good money. i’m sure midcareer plumbers make more money than my fairly comfortable college educated, has an office with a window self.

but i still wonder, because i have no idea what brantford is like, or if the 2024 walter would be living in a town like brantford or somewhere else, would he have a house? or a house with a big enough backyard to make a rink at the scale that a talented kid can become a wayne freakin’ gretzky?

asking as a guy in vancouver in a dual income household clearing $175k in a condo. i obviously can’t build my kid a rink, for numerous reasons.


Walter once said he made good money not great money. I think some people either do not know much about 99's childhood or have decided that in some time line the Gretzy family were one step away from being homeless and on the street.. Walter worked hard to make a good house for his family but I think some people are thinking he was not as well off as he was
 

psycat

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Of course people growing up rich, or tall, strong etc will have an advantage. In a decade or two the very rich will biologically engineer their children before birth so there's that.

Then of course we have the brain implants, cyborg legs etc coming. Doubt these will be cheap either.

Then again I am not so sure being born with more talent is all that earned either but nepotism kinda makes me see red due to personal experiences.
 
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biturbo19

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My experience in the US: If you’re at a high level by the right age, it doesn’t matter how much your parents make. You will have access to everything if you’re a good enough player.

Not to say that there’s not an advantage for those with deep pocketed families. If your kid has ok talent and can make decent club teams, for sure there are those who can essentially buy further development through non stop coaching, clinics, lessons, camps, etc that a middle class family couldn’t afford.

For instance, sending an solid but otherwise unspectacular talent to an expensive top HS to take advantage of a pipeline and connections to collegiate programs. That’s a way money can be a factor/advantage.

But I don’t think it plays into youth/HS sports nearly as much as people think in the U.S.

Canada I cannot speak on.



Those types of high schools hand out a ton of money too.

The US is a somewhat separate case from Canada. There are interesting options at the High School level that can still feed into USHL and NCAA scholarships and opportunities.

Canada is a little more challenging these days. There's house league and there's rep/travel leagues, and then there's just moving your entire ass family to a different city so your kid can go to one of the "magnet program" hockey schools.

It's not every player, but it's an alarming and rising number of those who make it to the NHL level, whose family literally uproots themselves and moves to a particular city so they can spend the thousands or tends of thousands of dollars to get their "promising" 10 year old into the right program. It's such an insane thing, but it's become so much more common. Not every, maybe even very few families can actually afford to do that. And the cities that are home to these programs tend to be substantially more expensive in cost of living than small, rural communities like many people, including Wayne grew up in. It's Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton mostly. Or you're sending your kid off alone to private "boarding school"...which is also insanely expensive, even with whatever scholarships. At 10-15 years old.



The US also has a little bit of an edge, in that they've become specialists in selecting athletically gifted kids out of abject poverty. They do it with Football, Basketball, Baseball, Track & Field, etc. America spends a lot on doing that, through various mechanisms. They're starting to figure it out with hockey...but even in the US...there are certain youth hockey and prep school programs that deliver and absolutely insane ratio of NHLer and NHL drafted players. If you can't afford to get your kid into one of those early, you're playing against the odds, no matter how talented they are. Because that's where all the best coaching and training is.

But the biggest hurdle with Hockey...is that skating isn't something poor kids can naturally "learn" if they can't afford skates and ice time. And coaching. Running and throwing balls around is a lot easier to do without a ton of money or equipment or facilities.


Are the McDavid "wealthy":
Take a Tour of Connor McDavid's House (with Connor and Gene Principe) | Go Auto

Or the Stromes family ?

Or by recent you are talking the last 3-5 years (those 2 example starting to date by now) ?

I mean, this is getting into splitting hairs...but yes, McDavey's dad is more or less "executive class" as far as i know. He grew up rich, in Newmarket area, which isn't really where struggling people tend to live. The average house price is a million dollars. It's among the wealthiest suburban enclaves in Canada. You can call it "Markham" or whatever he actually lists it as, but lol...his dad's work all lists Newmarket. His older brother's hockey profiles list Newmarket as hometown too.

I get a dead link there, but they were not a poor or even struggling medium family by most real accounts. Maybe they made sacrifices on not upgrading to an unnecessary home so they could afford to put Connor through the better programs his older brother didn't necessarily get. But they were plenty comfortable in where they were and obviously had the money to keep him in the programs that got him on that ultra convenient local-ish York-Simcoe to GTHL express train to the NHL.


Hockey has always been too expensive to play. I live in Canada and my parents couldn't afford to get me skates until I was 12 or so, nevermind getting to have all the equipment and playing in a league. Nothing but the number of dollars to play has changed, those who are wealthy can play and those are aren't can't, same as back then.

Yeah. It's a wild thing now...where even back when i was a kid, it was expensive. The registration fees for house league, fairly nominal. But i grew up with a reasonably well off family, professional class dad, mother a teacher who decided it was more cost effective to just stay home for those earliest years but then went back to work as a second income. Still couldn't even come close to affording "rep hockey" for me. I ended up playing with them a decent amount anyway, including the age group above even...but they simply couldn't afford the fees, but more than that...they couldn't afford the time off and other costs and requirements for the travel. So i just played house league. And it's fine...i was never going anywhere with it anyway. lol. But I grew up pretty darn well off, could afford power skating classes in the summer and equipment and everything...as a stretch. But it's just gone nuts from there and everything is so much more expensive and centralized.


Looking back, i honestly feel bad about it because we were so f***ing mean to the poor kids on the house league team. They were shit skaters because they started later and couldn't afford good coaching and summer skills camps and stuff to improve. They had the worst equipment and it was so ugly and clunky and probably hard to even play in. Those f***ing Techron skates. Or no...that's the Chevron thing. What were those plastic things called? But it's just so clear looking back that they were starting from a place of supreme disadvantage, even relative to me...a relatively well off kid, whose parents still couldn't ever even remotely afford even just relative local rep/travel team expenses. Much less...moving to an entirely different city or sending me to an "elite" magnet school type program.


what happens if your child did not have a backyard rink?

Nobody wants to talk about this either. But backyard rinks and community rinks and stuff are in peril now too. Even in Northern Canada...we're getting more and more insane weather. Where it's much later before it's consistently cold enough to freeze actual ice you can skate on. And then in those months where it's cold enough, you get weird hot flashes that melt things. And then you get insane -40 cold snaps where you can't reasonably go out and play hockey.

So even that "homegrown outdoor rink" or "skating on the pond" alternative is deteriorated, relative to Wayne's days as a kid.
 

Minnesota Knudsens

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Nobody wants to talk about this either. But backyard rinks and community rinks and stuff are in peril now too. Even in Northern Canada...we're getting more and more insane weather.

So even that "homegrown outdoor rink" or "skating on the pond" alternative is deteriorated, relative to Wayne's days as a kid.
This is true. The whole legend of Wayne and his dad is based on the backyard rink. My son and I skated a ton during the pandemic, when in the January/February of 2021, we had a cold winter that could sustain a community outdoor rink for those 2 months and those 2 months only. It was too warm in December and the rink melted at the end of February.

For the 2 years after that, they were unable to even start a rink, let alone maintain it for 2 months. And I’m in the same general area as Wayne grew up.

In other words, if Wayne had been 3 years old in 2022, Walter would’ve only had a backyard rink for random cold weeks (about 2 or 3 weeks a year). Basically not enough.

But to answer the greater question: Walter probably would’ve recognized Wayne’s insane talent and mortgaged his entire future to keep Wayne going. Now players with slightly lesser talent? We might have lost some of those.
 
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Porter Stoutheart

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Walter once said he made good money not great money. I think some people either do not know much about 99's childhood or have decided that in some time line the Gretzy family were one step away from being homeless and on the street.. Walter worked hard to make a good house for his family but I think some people are thinking he was not as well off as he was
I'm not sure "working class" is that much of a distinction these days anymore either. It's a little more about what kind of help you had or how smart you were early on that matters now. There are people doing "working class" jobs, who are making better money than me, or maybe they started earlier without piling up student loans, or maybe they inherited all or part of a house from their parents to help jumpstart them, or made a good buy when housing costs weren't as high, or wisely didn't finance the two new cars, etc, etc. A lot of little things along the way can make a bigger difference in terms of how much "disposable income" a family has which they can use on hockey. It's not just what color their working collar is or even what their annual salary is. There were "working class" families on my kids' AAA teams, or players aspiring to make those teams who were ready to pay if they could make it. Not as many as the doctors/lawyers/business owners/etc. But still represented. The difference likely being they were more disciplined or had some other advantages with their money situation along the way such that they still had enough disposable income to make it feasible. And then there were other "professionals" with big incomes who were barely scraping by with the hockey costs as well, just because of being over-leveraged with mortgages/lifestyle choices/etc.
 

Zine

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Take Kemerovo, a frosty city of half a million, almost the size of Winnipeg. Definitely good conditions for hockey theoretically. But everyone was made to play bandy instead. Of course you could try to make your own equipment and go play ice hockey outside on your own if you so wished, but no scout was going to discover you there nor did they even attempt to because the city was expected to produce players for another sport. System. If you're from Winnipeg and want to play basketball, lacrosse, football, curling, even bandy it's all possible and a matter of choice. Sure some options may be prohibitively expensive but at least they exist.

You think hockey wasn't played in Kemerovo? There was that bandy/hockey crossover thing.
Just checked the record books, they had a hockey teams/school. At least good enough to make the youth national tournament a few times. These kids wouldve been scouted.
 

Zine

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Reminded me of this. Bidini's documentary is quite fascinating.

Following around a 12 year old Kuznetsov.


The Kuznetsovs are undoubtedly getting everything paid for at the time of this documentary. It wouldn't surprise me if Traktor and Omsk schools are paying for their housing also.

That said, his parents wouldve somehow needed to afford to get him into hockey...which is getting more difficult these days as expensive equipment is required just to get a kid on the ice.
 

End on a Hinote

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I know a guy whose divorced and has to give up part of his hourly wage (in an average paying job) to his ex, supports another kid with his new wife, and still has a kid in hockey.

I'm sure he has to work harder/longer and has to sacrifice, but it is doable.
 

MadLuke

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I get a dead link there, but they were not a poor or even struggling medium family by most real accounts.
There a large gap between wealthy and poor, Canadians at old age having more than a million in net asset is quite the norm. Take an household were the 2 parents are nurse or teachers, that far from struggling medium class, that quite affluent, full job security, pension, with some over really good income, most would not call it a wealthy household (outside special inheritance or lucky placement or housing market lottery), there higher middle class before wealthy.

. The average house price is a million dollars.

Was it close to that, 15 years ago just after the 2008 petrol price and housing downturn when McDavid would have started to play 3 letters hockey that get complicated and costly ? And if the housing price of where you would move after selling your house is quite high (i.e. if housing rised everywhere not just for your special location) it can became not that obvious to turn it in large amount of money without a large downgrade in your living situation.
 

Dirty Dog

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A 25 acre farm is tiny. You would know that if you knew anything about farming.

Also, there was this thing called the Russian Revolution, where landowners had their lands, belongings, and often, lives, taken from them.

75,000 cukes an acre, times 25 is 1.8 million. Make them pickles. Jar 10 picked a jar. 180,000 jars. Sell them at 5 dollars….MILLIONS!

Obviously!
 

Craig Ludwig

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"Also, every parent will offer to help out the star kid on the team."

Wow, that's not my experience. I saw nothing but jealous, bitter parents willing to throw any kid under the bus if it got their kid an extra shift or two. *Especially* when is came to the talented kids. Feel free to look up online the vileness Shane Wright and his family were subjected to by other parents in Burlington. I've always been rooting for him because of this. Sorry to go on about this city and age group, it's just the situation I know best.
Just basing this on my experience, at least on some of the functioning teams we were on. And it was almost pathetic at times the way parents doted on the kid that looked like he may possibly make the show, even at 10 years old. They wanted to win so badly, and eventually tell stories further down the road that they knew him, they would go out of their way to help him out. If you're the weakest kid on the team, only the kind hearted parents would offer up immediately to get them a lift. That's the problem with the superstar kids that even at 8, are treated like superstars and worshipped by 30-40 year old parents, and learn how to act like privileged kids. I didn't read about Shane Wright but that's what I saw for many years.
 

biturbo19

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I'm not sure "working class" is that much of a distinction these days anymore either. It's a little more about what kind of help you had or how smart you were early on that matters now. There are people doing "working class" jobs, who are making better money than me, or maybe they started earlier without piling up student loans, or maybe they inherited all or part of a house from their parents to help jumpstart them, or made a good buy when housing costs weren't as high, or wisely didn't finance the two new cars, etc, etc. A lot of little things along the way can make a bigger difference in terms of how much "disposable income" a family has which they can use on hockey. It's not just what color their working collar is or even what their annual salary is. There were "working class" families on my kids' AAA teams, or players aspiring to make those teams who were ready to pay if they could make it. Not as many as the doctors/lawyers/business owners/etc. But still represented. The difference likely being they were more disciplined or had some other advantages with their money situation along the way such that they still had enough disposable income to make it feasible. And then there were other "professionals" with big incomes who were barely scraping by with the hockey costs as well, just because of being over-leveraged with mortgages/lifestyle choices/etc.

Absolutely. The line between "blue collar" and "white collar" is so blurred now. You've got welders and plumbers making way more money than teacher, nurses, and accountants now. It's really just driving home the idea that the "middle class" is basically made up. At it's core...It's Proletariat and Bourgeoisie. You either own or control the means of production, or you don't.

Hockey is starting to become, at the highest levels with a future...very much a sport for the latter. People with extreme wealth, or oodles of generational wealth (like say...a legacy NHL player's kid or something).


There a large gap between wealthy and poor, Canadians at old age having more than a million in net asset is quite the norm. Take an household were the 2 parents are nurse or teachers, that far from struggling medium class, that quite affluent, full job security, pension, with some over really good income, most would not call it a wealthy household (outside special inheritance or lucky placement or housing market lottery), there higher middle class before wealthy.



Was it close to that, 15 years ago just after the 2008 petrol price and housing downturn when McDavid would have started to play 3 letters hockey that get complicated and costly ? And if the housing price of where you would move after selling your house is quite high (i.e. if housing rised everywhere not just for your special location) it can became not that obvious to turn it in large amount of money without a large downgrade in your living situation.

Yeah. It's absolutely continuing to erode. It's relatively more and more expensive to do hockey. It's not just registration fees...it's top level equipment, it's top level additional training, it's often even having to move your entire family to let that hockey kid pursue their dream. Not all careers are nearly that portable.
 

danisonfire

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Competitive minor hockey in Canada can cost a family $10-15K/yr (ice time, travel, tournaments, $300 sticks, $500 skates... aint cheap)
House league hockey can cost a family $2-3K/year

This is way out of reach for a lot of families.

GTHL AAA cost my parents approximately 25k per year. That was two decades ago. They had an itemized spreadsheet that I saw when I was older. I was shocked to say the least. OYSL soccer in Comparison was like 3k total expenses. This is a major issue with hockey that I am sure still exists and is probably worse.
 

BigGoalBrad

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maybe worth pointing out that we just saw a cup winner whose three best skaters were all the kids of pros. two are second generation NHL all-stars and the father of their captain and best player had a twenty year career in european pro leagues.
No different than baseball or basketball. What a shock kids who grew up taking BP or throwing up shots in major league stadiums/arenas are doing well.

These kids of pros are guaranteed the best possible development track through age 15/16. On their own after that but it’s a hell of an advantage.
 

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