World Juniors' Attendance

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

As a Canadian who went to the USA-Finland game (sorry guys), I can tell you that the crowd was well below 14,000 people. Boths ends of the arena were basically empty, with lots of open seats along the side aswell. As others have said, basically half of the crowd was wearing Canada jerseys with the majority cheering for Finland.

Announced attendance at most professional sporting events is usually tickets sold. While the majority of tickets would've gone to Canadians (because in order to guarantee tickets to all Canada games, you had to buy the entire tournament), people would've tried to sell their tickets to games that they didn't plan on attending.

The sentiment from the american fans around us were basically "This sucks, and I don't even want to go to the gold medal game if it's Canada-USA again". Some american fans were leaving after the 2nd period (in what was a pretty good game), because they just felt it wasn't worth it.... and I guarantee you it wasn't because these players were junior players that they haven't heard of. It was because you could look around and see a near half empty rink, you don't feel lucky to be there. You feel like you've just been ripped off.

Personally, I chalk it up to just not caring. After a gold medal last year, this should've been an all-time high for americans to buy tickets.... yet the bars 10 minutes from the rink didn't even know what channel the game was on. It turned out to be on NHL Network (which is actually produced by TSN, at least in Canada). I assume NHL Network is an obscure channel that nobody watches like it is in Canada. Meanwhile, TSN has basically manufactured this tournament into a staple of Canadian hockey tradition. There is definitely a loyal following in Buffalo, but it is not very large, and the majority of people just don't care.

My recommendation for the Best Post of The Day!!! Good Post jfried!

My 2 cents...

During the early game I was in a row that was 75% full. The period ended and we left to get a hot dog. There were 2 kids (early 20's) talking. I overheard one say "everyone in THAT (refering to our) row is Canadian" - we were all wearing Red.

I think these kids were disappointed that they came out to watch hockey, from the US, and they were alone. Nobody wants that. You go to these games to be a part of something bigger. A group experience.

Sounds like the American game was the same. People came to support the US. Saw a million red maple leafs chearing for Finland and thought "Screw this, I'm outa here".

I feel worst of all for the US players. They overcame so much, last year, to win. They probably thought "We have a great team and we can show our fans what USA Hockey is all about". Then they play and see nothing but Red Maple Leafs in the stands routing against them. It is a shame.

 

[Hawkster58]

At the suggestion of a moderator over on the US-Finland thread I've decided to start thread discussing attendance.

Tonight's attendance for the above game was 14,093 with possibly half of the crowd Canadian.

Although the tournament is pretty much only known by die hards in the US I was a surprised considering Buffalo is a pretty good hockey market. However, another reason brought up might be the price gouging. According to some Sabres fans the tickets ranged from $65-$80. It looks like the organizers correctly knew that a lot of Canadians would be coming across the border. Unfortunately it migh dissuade a lot of Buffalo fans from buying tickets to a tournament they know little about.

Hopefully the word quickly spreads and we see the US sellout by the time the reach the semi-finals. The US should win the remaining of their games in a weak division creating greater interest.

Of note - Canada v Russia was close to a sellout with 18,690.
Germany v Switzerland got 13,629
Sweden v Norway had 1,320 at the university rink.

As a Sabre season ticket holder I can tell you 18,690 is a sellout in Buffalo. There were a few 300 level seats that were reserved for a team as the only empty seats in the Canada game.

The Switzerland game had no more than 6,000 in the building and I'd say 12,000 max for the U.S. game.

While I think the Bills impacted that, the Americans as a whole just don't share our passion for junior hockey, but they are starting to get on board, baby steps.

 

[BlackAces*]

Tell Minnesota to bid for it, then.

Minnesota loves pro, college and high school hockey, but junior hockey is not something that has gone over very well there, so I'd be curious to see how well Minnesotans would turn out....

The Sabres waved a $4 million guarantee check at USA Hockey, and won the rights to host the tourney. The Sabres will generate $12-14 million in overall revenue on this, and after expenses, still walk away with a few million in profit.

I would if I could, hell I would invest my own money. I never considered Buffalo to be any sort of "hockey hot bed", so the attendance really isn't surprising.

 

[seanlinden]

While I do believe that an overall lack of interest was the main factor contributing to the poor showing.... the ticket packaging certainly didn't help....

Full Tournmament Passes: (includes medal rounds)
Bronze = $23/ticket for upper bowl at HSBC
Silver = $39/ticket for lower bowl at HSBC
Gold = $40/ticket for lower bowl at HSBC + the secondary arena @ Niagra

To me, this seems reasonable, as someone who purchases one of these packages realistically isn't going to go to every game.

Day Packs: (varies based on quality of games, scheduled so that when Canada/USA play, there is a crappy 3rd game lumped in there)
For yesterday's games, you'd be looking at $75/ticket for lower bowl, $55/ticket for upper bowl. This is cost prohibitive, when you consider that the Germany-Switzerland game is basically worthless.

Individual Tickets:
$90 lower bowl
$65 upper bowl

Based on the announced attendance of 13,629 for Germany-Swtizerland, my guess would be that somewhere around 11-12,000 full tournament passes were sold, with the remainder coming from full-day passes and very few individual tickets. (if you were going to buy tickets to the Germany game, you might aswell go watch Canada & USA. As a fan from Toronto who deals with ACC prices... this all seems unbelievable, but I also must remember that nobody else has anwhere near the prices that the ACC does. The tournament organizers were definitely concerned about selling as many tickets as possible, rather than actually getting tickets into the hands of people who would attend the game and spend money on beer/food/merchandise/etc. I'd bet that a whole bunch of tickets for the Swiss & USA games simply went unused sitting on Canadian countertops, much moreso for the Switzerland game.

@Hawkster, 10,000-12,000 seems like an accurate estimate of acutal attendance at the USA-Finland game. It was more than half full, but not by much.


edit: Does anyone know how the profit structure for the WJCs works? Is it USA hockey that runs the tournament and takes the profit? or the Sabres?

 

[BlackAces*]

While I do believe that an overall lack of interest was the main factor contributing to the poor showing.... the ticket packaging certainly didn't help....

Full Tournmament Passes: (includes medal rounds)
Bronze = $23/ticket for upper bowl at HSBC
Silver = $39/ticket for lower bowl at HSBC
Gold = $40/ticket for lower bowl at HSBC + the secondary arena @ Niagra

That is an amazing deal.

 

[BuffaloPete]

The tournament was a lot more obscure back then. Minnesota had a hockey team in 1989 and nobody came either, but look at it now.

Minnesota is a great hockey market, and would draw in fans from Canada, the Dakotas, Wisconsin, maybe even Michigan.

It should be in Minnesota.

I think the hockey markets in Minnesota and Buffalo are pretty identical to each other. This tournament is not big in the US. There's no getting around that. If you disregard who went to yesterday's games then this is successful. Ticket sales for the tournament as a whole have been very strong.

 

[Hawkster58]

That is an amazing deal.

Yeah I bought the Silver package lower bowl, some dog games, but pretty reasonable...

 

[jfb392]

I think what all of you Canadians are missing is that the US has had, at least to my knowledge, legitimate access to this tournament for all of two years on a premium channel that has existed for three years.
Team USA has a bunch of collegiate players, which are notoriously hard to follow and in my opinion, not as hyped as CHL players.

Even if you're a big Sabres fan, you most likely didn't see the World Juniors last year because as I already mentioned, it's on a premium channel.
No, the tournament probably didn't get any coverage on ESPN even though the US won, and if they do this year, they probably won't either.
The only hockey they cover are Crosby or Ovechkin, with the occasional Blackhawks or Flyers highlights (maybe once a month) because they were involved in the finals last year.
There are more important things to cover, like the great "Beef 'O' Brady's St. Petersburg Bowl".

11-12k all-session passes costing upwards of $500 for a tournament that we've been able to watch for all of two years is decent in an area that is generally considered to be economically challenged.

 

[Chainshot]

While I do believe that an overall lack of interest was the main factor contributing to the poor showing.... the ticket packaging certainly didn't help....

Full Tournmament Passes: (includes medal rounds)
Bronze = $23/ticket for upper bowl at HSBC
Silver = $39/ticket for lower bowl at HSBC
Gold = $40/ticket for lower bowl at HSBC + the secondary arena @ Niagra

To me, this seems reasonable, as someone who purchases one of these packages realistically isn't going to go to every game.

Day Packs: (varies based on quality of games, scheduled so that when Canada/USA play, there is a crappy 3rd game lumped in there)
For yesterday's games, you'd be looking at $75/ticket for lower bowl, $55/ticket for upper bowl. This is cost prohibitive, when you consider that the Germany-Switzerland game is basically worthless.

Individual Tickets:
$90 lower bowl
$65 upper bowl

Based on the announced attendance of 13,629 for Germany-Swtizerland, my guess would be that somewhere around 11-12,000 full tournament passes were sold, with the remainder coming from full-day passes and very few individual tickets. (if you were going to buy tickets to the Germany game, you might aswell go watch Canada & USA.

It is clear that there is price gouging going on -- the Canada-Czech game tomorrow is another where the cheapest seats in the rink are $70 for an individual seat and over $100 for almost every other seat. It's clearly being done to drill cash out of Canadian fans and at the same point it scares the locals away because it is more than they are willing to spend.

 

[puck swami]

Sounds like the American game was the same. People came to support the US. Saw a million red maple leafs chearing for Finland and thought "Screw this, I'm outa here".

I feel worst of all for the US players. They overcame so much, last year, to win. They probably thought "We have a great team and we can show our fans what USA Hockey is all about". Then they play and see nothing but Red Maple Leafs in the stands routing against them. It is a shame.

Sounds just like the plight of US National Soccer players, who often play in hostile enviroments in their own country. It's starting to change now that the US is a better soccer country and there is now a fanbase for the Yanks, but we still need to put our world cup qualifiers in places like Columbus, and not in New York or LA, lest we lose home field advantage in cities where there are large immigrant populations who cheer their home country first.

If the USA played this World Junior tourney in a place that wasn't easy to access for Canadians, I am afraid they'd be playing in front of empty seats (which is the history of this tourney when played in American cities without close access to Canada). I think the US players would rather see Canadians in the stands rooting against them than empty seats.

Either way, we still have a long way to go to make Junior hockey matter to people on this side of the border.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

My recommendation for the Best Post of The Day!!! Good Post jfried!

My 2 cents...

During the early game I was in a row that was 75% full. The period ended and we left to get a hot dog. There were 2 kids (early 20's) talking. I overheard one say "everyone in THAT (refering to our) row is Canadian" - we were all wearing Red.

I think these kids were disappointed that they came out to watch hockey, from the US, and they were alone. Nobody wants that. You go to these games to be a part of something bigger. A group experience.

Sounds like the American game was the same. People came to support the US. Saw a million red maple leafs chearing for Finland and thought "Screw this, I'm outa here".

I feel worst of all for the US players. They overcame so much, last year, to win. They probably thought "We have a great team and we can show our fans what USA Hockey is all about". Then they play and see nothing but Red Maple Leafs in the stands routing against them. It is a shame.

I am sure most had a feeling it would be that way players like playing in front of alot of fans so its better then empty seats.Fans are not going to or should not buy tickets and not go because there are other fans cheering aginst the states.As for ticket sales what i have heard is 60% were sold to people comming from canada.

 

[Ward Cornell]

I think the hockey markets in Minnesota and Buffalo are pretty identical to each other. This tournament is not big in the US. There's no getting around that. If you disregard who went to yesterday's games then this is successful. Ticket sales for the tournament as a whole have been very strong.

The attendance in the USA for the WJHC would probably be better than March Madness in Canada.
Just because one nation loves a sporting event more than another doesn't diminish the quality or the passion of the fans that do attend.

 

[BlackAces*]

I think the hockey markets in Minnesota and Buffalo are pretty identical to each other.

I don't think they are even close to being comparable.

 

[JVR]

And in the end it's always about the money and not about full arenas
or great atmosphere for those organising these events.

 

[Chainshot]

I think what all of you Canadians are missing is that the US has had, at least to my knowledge, legitimate access to this tournament for all of two years on a premium channel that has existed for three years.
Team USA has a bunch of collegiate players, which are notoriously hard to follow and in my opinion, not as hyped as CHL players.

Even if you're a big Sabres fan, you most likely didn't see the World Juniors last year because as I already mentioned, it's on a premium channel.
No, the tournament probably didn't get any coverage on ESPN even though the US won.
The only hockey they cover are Crosby or Ovechkin, with the occasional Blackhawks or Flyers highlights (maybe once a month) because they were involved in the finals last year.
There are more important things to cover, like the great "Beef 'O' Brady's St. Petersburg Bowl".

11-12k all-session passes costing upwards of $500 for a tournament that we've been able to watch for all of two years is decent in an area that is generally considered to be economically challenged.

ESPN did a short piece on Team USA after they won. That was it.

That said, junior coverage locally has certainly always been lacking. Local sports talk radio or the daily fishwrap are typically concerned only with the two local pro teams or in attempts at non-sports comedy to bother covering anything else.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

It is clear that there is price gouging going on -- the Canada-Czech game tomorrow is another where the cheapest seats in the rink are $70 for an individual seat and over $100 for almost every other seat. It's clearly being done to drill cash out of Canadian fans and at the same point it scares the locals away because it is more than they are willing to spend.

Tickets are not cheap when the tournemant was in ottawa i paid around $2500 for 16 games yes it included the play offs.

 

[Ward Cornell]

I think the US players would rather see Canadians in the stands rooting against them than empty seats.

Either way, we still have a long way to go to make Junior hockey matter to people on this side of the border.

Being cheered against can fire-up a team more than being cheered for.

 

[Prussian_Blue]

This tourney will never be *big* anywhere but Canada, and the IIHF knows it. We would all be be better off if that's acknoweldged and we move on.

That's kind of an ignorant and chauvinistic thing to say, don't you think? Not to mention downright insulting to the several countries who have hosted this tournament before.

 

[BlackAces*]

Yeah I bought the Silver package lower bowl, some dog games, but pretty reasonable...

Yeah you are going to get some games you don't really care to see, but for the US and Canada games alone, gotta be worth the cost.

 

[Chainshot]

And in the end it's always about the money and not about full arenas
or great atmosphere for those organising these events.

Exactly. The atmosphere is something that could make a fan for life. Instead , it's a big cash grab on the organizers side.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

That's kind of an ignorant and chauvinistic thing to say, don't you think? Not to mention downright insulting to the several countries who have hosted this tournament before.

Yes others have hosted it but its been rare for great support.

 

[BlackAces*]

Tickets are not cheap when the tournemant was in ottawa i paid around $2500 for 16 games yes it included the play offs.

That is ****ing insanity, those kinds of prices are ridiculous.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

The package prices as in.,.. buying all the games at once? Sure, an average price of $25/game would be reasonable... but the fact that you HAVE to buy all the games at once to get that price completely cancels that out.

I really wanted to go to some games, but the ones I was interested in, at the time, were $60 minimum.

Also, the fact that it's the week after a Saturday Christmas makes it difficult. There were 2 games I was considering but ended up having plans for the holidays.

This failure reeks of Larry Quinn.

Hi VCV,

I disagree. Hockey Canada has been using the "Have to Buy All the Games" method for years - to great success, I might add. USA Hockey just modelled their sales after Canada's proven method. Larry Quinn had nothing to do with it.

And, I believe, it worked. I believe they sold far more tickets (to Canadians of course) then they would have if they had split up the games. I, myself, have the Silver Package - a pair of tickets to 21 games. If I had my ways I would have only bought half of those tickets. By doing it the was they did, they sold a ton of seats.

There is a (terrific) writer for Canada's "National Post" (Bruce Authur) who said it best (I am paraphrasing)... He said the difference between Canadian and US Hockey fans is NOT the love of the game but the willingness to spend BIG dollars to see it. I agree.

When I was told my Silver Package (the one needed to see all of the Canadian games) would set me back $2,300 (after exchange), I did not blink. I thought :

"Yup, that sounds about right. Yes... that is what I am willing to pay to see 4 Round Robin Canadian games, the Quarters, Semis and, most importantly, the Gold Medal game."

And I know there were thousands and thousands of Canadians who thought the same way. (* I know USA Hockey said 2/3 tickets were sold to Canadians but I would be willing to bet it was higher. *)

Let me sum it up this way... if Canada ends up the finals with the US or Russia the 'stubhub' prices for the Gold Medal game will be thru the roof. But most of the Canadians I know still would never consider selling them - I know I wouldn't. We would think :

1) The team needs our support;
2) This is a once in a lifetime experience;
3) Ths is the WJR's!!!

I don't think an average American hockey fan would think that way - not a put down, just a fact.

 

[northstarsforever]

I don't think they are even close to being comparable.

This. Would Buffalo sell out their building for the state high school championship?

 

[wjhl2009fan]

That is ****ing insanity, those kinds of prices are ridiculous.

They are but for many its a great tournemant and they will pay big bucks to go.