TSN: WJC ~ Team Canada @ the World Junior Championships

[Back in Black]

WOW. Now I have no doubt that Canada will win Gold!!!

And that's why I'm not a Betting man....

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

This sounds very much like the "if you didn't spend so much on avocado toast you could buy a house" boomer argument. It's bunk.

The reality is, that the majority of parents do not drive luxury cars, and hockey is prohibitively expensive for most.

I have a friend in Sweden, where the club teams run their own minor hockey programs (similar to how soccer works in Europe). It costs ~$500 per year for his kids to play (each), and that includes all fees and equipment.

In Canada? It's a game for the rich. The cost is 4 or 5x per year.

*Also, in 2023, the average age of a car on the road in Canada was 11 years. So most people still have that 10-year-old vehicle in the driveway.

Play on a travel team in Canada these days, and you could easily shell out $10k a year. It's insane.

 

[jbeck5]

This sounds very much like the "if you didn't spend so much on avocado toast you could buy a house" boomer argument. It's bunk.

The reality is, that the majority of parents do not drive luxury cars, and hockey is prohibitively expensive for most.

I have a friend in Sweden, where the club teams run their own minor hockey programs (similar to how soccer works in Europe). It costs ~$500 per year for his kids to play (each), and that includes all fees and equipment.

In Canada? It's a game for the rich. The cost is 4 or 5x per year.

No, it's very different. Hockey is expensive but not THAT expensive.


You're comparing not buying a $2 toast will get you to buy an 800k house. That's 400,000% change.

I'm saying the parent not buying the latest $1,200 iPhone would go a long way of covering the $500-2,500 it costs to play hockey for a season.

Also, the luxury car argument was just to point out my experience. You can make the same argument with a person buying a new $30,000 Toyota Corolla instead of an 8 year old 2016 corolla used for 15k.

That 15k saved would go a long way to being able to afford to put your kids in hockey.

Also , do you not remember the old days? Parents almost never spent on themselves..now they all do. There's definitely a trend where parents are become more selfish and less about their kids.

 

[BondraTime]

No, it's very different. Hockey is expensive but not THAT expensive.


You're comparing not buying a $2 toast will get you to buy an 800k house. That's 400,000% change.

I'm saying the parent not buying the latest $1,200 iPhone would go a long way of covering the $500-2,500 it costs to play hockey for a season.

Also, the luxury car argument was just to point out my experience. You can make the same argument with a person buying a new $30,000 Toyota Corolla instead of an 8 year old 2016 corolla used for 15k.

That 15k saved would go a long way to being able to afford to put your kids in hockey.

Also , do you not remember the old days? Parents almost never spent on themselves..now they all do. There's definitely a trend where parents are become more selfish and less about their kids.

Well, there is your problem

You're paying significantly, significantly more than that

For the guys that Hockey Canada would actually be looking at, or guys that would be looking to be drafted to the CHL, 500 doesn't cover your sticks for the season

 

[Joeffice]

Alberta has been the 2nd best province outside of Ontario over the past 15 years, only 4 times it's been lower than 2nd for number of players, and only 3 times did Quebec have more. They had a strong group of 97's and 95's, that's it in the past 15 years

My bad, I did not realize Alberta had eclipsed so dramatically already.
Even more of an issue for Quebec in my mind then it was.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

No, it's very different. Hockey is expensive but not THAT expensive.


You're comparing not buying a $2 toast will get you to buy an 800k house. That's 400,000% change.

I'm saying the parent not buying the latest $1,200 iPhone would go a long way of covering the $500-2,500 it costs to play hockey for a season.

Also, the luxury car argument was just to point out my experience. You can make the same argument with a person buying a new $30,000 Toyota Corolla instead of an 8 year old 2016 corolla used for 15k.

That 15k saved would go a long way to being able to afford to put your kids in hockey.

Also , do you not remember the old days? Parents almost never spent on themselves..now they all do. There's definitely a trend where parents are become more selfish and less about their kids.

More bunk, in all honesty.

Just like your car argument, most parents in Canada do not buy themselves the new iPhone whenever it comes out. You seem to think the average family/parent lives like what you see on Instagram, which is just not true.

"Ahh the old days".

I'm from the old days. I spent plenty on myself. I recognize that it'll be WAY harder for my children to put their kids in hockey than it was for me to put them in hockey.

It's a different world. Young families are in tough.

And tt's one thing to get kids playing house league. But if you have 2-3 kids who are playing AA+ on travel teams? Get ready to pony up $20k+ per year for the privilege.

And really, that's just an insanely stupid investment. Put the kids in basketball and save that money for school and to help them start a life when they graduate.

 

[jbeck5]

Well, there is your problem

You're paying significantly, significantly more than that

Not here, no.

Fees to register for hockey are in the 700s in Ottawa east.

You can add equipment and stuff, but play it again sports and Facebook marketplace is full of free or dirt cheap used equipment.

Add in the odd tournaments and the price doubles.


I play hockey and it's $550 for about 30-35 games and no practice time...and men's league is NOT subsidized by the government.

Minor hockey is subsidised...they get their 30-35 games plus practices for about $780. Would be about $1,000 if not subsidized.

 

[BondraTime]

Not here, no.

Fees to register for hockey are in the 700s in Ottawa east.

You can add equipment and stuff, but play it again sports and Facebook marketplace is full of free or dirt cheap used equipment.

Add in the odd tournaments and the price doubles.

House league and minor hockey?

That has nothing to do with development of hockey though, those players mean nothing to the Hockey Canada system. Those players don't have anything to do with Hockey Canada, because they aren't moving on to the levels where Hockey Canada would every have any development.

If you can play on a competitive team, where Hockey Canada and the CHL develops it's players, for 700, it's the best price in Canada by a very, very significant amount

 

[jbeck5]

House league?

That has nothing to do with development of hockey though, those players mean nothing to the Hockey Canada system.

If you can play on a competitive team, that Hockey Canada develops it's players, for 700, it's the best price in Canada by a very, very significant amount

Were simply talking about getting your kids into hockey. People say it's too expensive to get their kids into hockey so they put them in other sports.

But it's only $780 to register for hockey. Actually less at the novice age.

U7 is $440 this year. U9 is $650.

I don't see that as too expensive for getting your kid into hockey at a young age while people change phones every couple years and their phones cost more than registering for a season.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Were simply talking about getting your kids into hockey. People say it's too expensive to get their kids into hockey so they put them in other sports.

But it's only $780 to register for hockey. Actually less at the novice age.

U7 is $440 this year. U9 is $650.

I don't see that as too expensive for getting your kid into hockey at a young age while people change phones every couple years and their phones cost more than registering for a season.

You were talking about the development of elite players, who could one day end up in the Team Canada pipeline. "Why are we falling behind other countries" is what you asked that sparked the conversation.

That's very different than getting a 6-year-old into house league.

Developing an elite player is prohibitively expensive in Canada. The pool will keep getting smaller.

And on the rec side, you're also not factoring in the cost of equipment for kids, who if things are the same as when I had them, tend to grow every year.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

100 dollars for a low end stick that can break in 2 games attempting a shot or if slashed the right way.

i swear the sticks are made to break. hockey is crazy.

 

[jbeck5]

You were talking about the development of elite players, who could one day end up in the Team Canada pipeline. "Why are we falling behind other countries" is what you asked that sparked the conversation.

That's very different than getting a 6-year-old into house league.

Developing an elite player is prohibitively expensive in Canada.

That depends on the way you go about things.

What happened to playing on your local competitive team for about twice the price of house league, and then making juniors where costs are covered for you?

I see these travel teams being expensive, but thats absolutely not needed to become a good player.

 

[BondraTime]

Were simply talking about getting your kids into hockey. People say it's too expensive to get their kids into hockey so they put them in other sports.

But it's only $780 to register for hockey. Actually less at the novice age.

U7 is $440 this year. U9 is $650.

I don't see that as too expensive for getting your kid into hockey at a young age while people change phones every couple years and their phones cost more than registering for a season.

95+% of CHL kids are drafted out of AAA Bantam and AAA Midget.

If you aren't playing at that level, you're not getting on Hockey Canada's radar.

To play on those teams, you're generally paying more than 5 grand in registration alone. Another couple hundred in equipment, another ton in travel.

If you're not paying ~5+k in fees from 13-15, you're generally not getting on Hockey Canada's radar, and are irrelevant to what you see as a declining program

Tons, a majority, of parents can't afford that. Doesn't matter much if they have a new iPhone or a Motorolla Razr

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

That depends on the way you go about things.

What happened to playing on your local competitive team for about twice the price of house league, and then making juniors where costs are covered for you?

I see these travel teams being expensive, but thats absolutely not needed to become a good player.

Because that kid who just plays on his local competitive team is not going to develop enough to ever make major junior.

They're not going to play against the best competition. They're not going to play enough. They're not going to get the coaching they need. They're not going to be seen by scouts.

You can still become a good player. Maybe you make Jr.B. But you're not becoming an elite player who's going to be on the WJC radar.

You seem pretty out of touch with how the current minor hockey system in Canada works, at the elite level.

The required cost of developing an elite hockey player, between the ages of 11-16, is prohibitively expensive for 95% of families. The pool is small.

 

[jbeck5]

90+% of CHL kids are drafted out of AAA Bantam and AAA Midget.

If you aren't playing at that level, you're not getting on Hockey Canada's radar.

To play on those teams, you're generally paying more than 5 grand in registration alone. Another couple hundred in equipment, another ton in travel.

If you're not paying ~5+k in fees from 13-15, you're generally not getting on Hockey Canada's radar, and are irrelevant to what you see as a declining program

Did things change recently or are levels different in other areas?

Growing up, AA was the top league. AAA was a summer league with a lot of the talent not playing... Like I knew several A players that couldn't crack their AA team but played AAA hockey every summer. Because half the kids who played major junior hockey played other sports like competitive soccer during the summer to get a break from hockey and work on developing other skills that can be useful for hockey.

I know Quebec had different levels...like CC? Wtf is that?

So has AAA changed to be the new top level or is it still just summer hockey with a huge discrepancy in top to bottom talent, having a mix of AA, A and even some competitive B players?

 

[BondraTime]

Did things change recently or are levels different in other areas?

Growing up, AA was the top league. AAA was a summer league with a lot of the talent not playing... Like I knew several A players that couldn't crack their AA team but played AAA hockey every summer. Because half the kids who played major junior hockey played other sports like competitive soccer during the summer to get a break from hockey and work on developing other skills that can be useful for hockey.

I know Quebec had different levels...like CC? Wtf is that?

So has AAA changed to be the new top level or is it still just summer hockey with a huge discrepancy in top to bottom talent, having a mix of AA, A and even some competitive B players?

AAA is the top level, if you aren't playing at that level, you generally are not going anywhere. It has been for long before I began at that level for sure, I watched the Atlantic cup and Air Canada Cup, before it was changed to the Telus Cup, as a 10ish year old back in maybe 99, 2000 with my cousin playing, and they were the feeders for the CHL then for sure. It's been changed to U18, U16, etc., but the same thing.

I'm from Newfoundland, when I was playing, if you were not playing AAA, or had not left to play Junior A as a 16 or 17 year old, there was zero chance of you being drafted into the CHL. In Newfoundland, there is legitimately 0 chance, outside of one that I can recall and that was a special circumstance, of a guy playing on the island getting drafted to the QMJHL (or OHL as you were able to a year prior to my draft) unless you played AAA hockey.

It's different elsewhere on the mainland, with prep schools and easier access to scouts, but if you're planning on playing at St. Andrews, or Champions Hockey Academy, or any other prep school, you're paying a significant amount more.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Did things change recently or are levels different in other areas?

Growing up, AA was the top league. AAA was a summer league with a lot of the talent not playing... Like I knew several A players that couldn't crack their AA team but played AAA hockey every summer. Because half the kids who played major junior hockey played other sports like competitive soccer during the summer to get a break from hockey and work on developing other skills that can be useful for hockey.

I know Quebec had different levels...like CC? Wtf is that?

So has AAA changed to be the new top level or is it still just summer hockey with a huge discrepancy in top to bottom talent, having a mix of AA, A and even some competitive B players?

In Ontario, AAA is the top level. If you're not playing AAA Bantam, your chances of ever becoming elite (member of a National Team elite) are slim to none.

The estimated cost for a single AAA season, per player, in the GTA, is ~$20-25k (includes fees, travel, equipment).

You can still develop and become a very good player playing AA (maybe you make the Jr.A team and land a scholarship at a Div 3 school), but you'll be far behind the pack in terms of the elite players.

AndBut the cost of a single season at the A or AA level, per player, in the GTA, is still $5-8k.

Because half the kids who played major junior hockey played other sports like competitive soccer during the summer to get a break from hockey and work on developing other skills that can be useful for hockey.

This used to be the case, long ago! It was great. We should get back to it. But it's not anymore. Elite players focus on hockey 12 months a year.

Honestly, the elite system sucks.

I'd never advise parents to go down that wormhole with their kids. Expose them to a wide range of house league sports when they're young, and help them develop a love for activity and competition, but don't try to raise an NHLer.

 

[jbeck5]

More bunk, in all honesty.

Just like your car argument, most parents in Canada do not buy themselves the new iPhone whenever it comes out. You seem to think the average family/parent lives like what you see on Instagram, which is just not true.

"Ahh the old days".

I'm from the old days. I spent plenty on myself. I recognize that it'll be WAY harder for my children to put their kids in hockey than it was for me to put them in hockey.

It's a different world. Young families are in tough.

And tt's one thing to get kids playing house league. But if you have 2-3 kids who are playing AA+ on travel teams? Get ready to pony up $20k+ per year for the privilege.

And really, that's just an insanely stupid investment. Put the kids in basketball and save that money for school and to help them start a life when they graduate.

Maybe you're right. But maybe it's because I definitely see a lot of people my age without a better job with kids, spending money on toys for them, that I can only afford because I don't have kids.

I make average money. I just bought myself a new laptop for $1,500. A new exhaust for my car for $2,000. A new Xbox for $750. I have almost zero expenses. What I often see, is people my age with a similar paying job with 2 kids, getting all the little luxury toys I'm getting. No wonder they can't afford stuff for their kids.

But also, why on earth would it cost that much? I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm asking why?

Why were we able to play competitive hockey and then get scouted for junior from your AA team and then have expenses covered?

I played competitive hockey, and my coaches weren't parents on the team. And it didn't cost nearly that much. What has changed, and why are other countries more easily able to afford it and are making improvements to their hockey programs while we're regressing?

 

[jbeck5]

In Ontario, AAA is the top level. If you're not playing AAA Bantam, your chances of ever becoming elite (member of a National Team elite) are slim to none.

The estimated cost for a single AAA season, per player, in the GTA, is ~$20-25k (includes fees, travel, equipment).

You can still develop and become a very good player play A or AA (maybe you make the Jr.A team and land a scholarship at a Div 3 school), but you'll be far behind the pack in terms of the elite players.

AndBut the cost of a single season at the A or AA level, per player, in the GTA, is still $5-8k.



This used to be the case, long ago! It was great. We should get back to it. But it's not anymore. Elite players focus on hockey 12 months a year.

Honestly, the elite system sucks.

I'd never advise parents to go down that wormhole with their kids. Expose them to a wide range of house league sports when they're young, and help them develop a love for activity and competition, but don't try to raise an NHLer.

But we literally have plenty of examples on our sens team of players playing other sports competitively instead. Young players. Chychrun played baseball. As did Pinto I believe. They weren't playing hockey year round.

 

[jbeck5]

AAA is the top level, if you aren't playing at that level, you generally are not going anywhere. It has been for long before I began at that level for sure, I watched the Atlantic cup and Air Canada Cup, before it was changed to the Telus Cup, as a 10ish year old back in maybe 99, 2000 with my cousin playing, and they were the feeders for the CHL then for sure. It's been changed to U18, U16, etc., but the same thing.

I'm from Newfoundland, when I was playing, if you were not playing AAA, or had not left to play Junior A as a 16 or 17 year old, there was zero chance of you being drafted into the CHL. In Newfoundland, there is legitimately 0 chance, outside of one that I can recall and that was a special circumstance, of a guy playing on the island getting drafted to the QMJHL (or OHL as you were able to a year prior to my draft) unless you played AAA hockey.

It's different elsewhere on the mainland, with prep schools and easier access to scouts, but if you're planning on playing at St. Andrews, or Champions Hockey Academy, or any other prep school, you're paying a significant amount more.

See, unless I'm mistaken, when I was growing up. The top league was AA.

You had the Cumberland barons, the Orleans blues, and the Gloucester Rangers, just to name a few teams. They didn't have a AAA team.

AAA was an off season select league.

After AA, you would get scouted by the local junior A teams like the Cumberland grads or the Ottawa jr senators or the Ottawa jr 67s... Which was JR A. And then the next league up was major JR A in the OHL or QMJHL. There was of course jr B but that is not a pipeline to the NHL.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

But we literally have plenty of examples on our sens team of players playing other sports competitively instead. Young players. Chychrun played baseball. As did Pinto I believe. They weren't playing hockey year round.

They were playing hockey year-round. It was their primary focus. Chychrun, for example, participated in elite summer programs and camps in the Ottawa Valley (his parents spent summers up here).

Saying elite hockey players can't play other sports was a bit of a hyperbole because they can dabble, but they can't play competitively, and by the time they're 12 or 13, they can't put down their sticks and skates for 4 months in the summer.

 

[jbeck5]

They were playing hockey year-round. It was their primary focus. Chychrun, for example, participated in elite summer programs and camps in the Ottawa Valley (his parents spent summers up here).

Saying elite hockey players can't play other sports was a bit of a hyperbole because they can dabble, but they can't play competitively, and by the time they're 12 or 13, they can't put down their sticks and skates for 4 months in the summer.

Wasn't Heatley another one that had to choose between baseball and hockey?

I thought it was later than 12-13 and more up until 15-16 when their junior careers started that they decided to make a choice and drop the other sport.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

See, unless I'm mistaken, when I was growing up. The top league was AA.

You had the Cumberland barons, the Orleans blues, and the Gloucester Rangers, just to name a few teams. They didn't have a AAA team.

AAA was an off season select league.

After AA, you would get scouted by the local junior A teams like the Cumberland grads or the Ottawa jr senators or the Ottawa jr 67s... Which was JR A. And then the next league up was major JR A in the OHL or QMJHL. There was of course jr B but that is not a pipeline to the NHL.

Take a look at the 2023 OHL draft selections:

Ontario Hockey League

The OHL consists of 20 member teams, including 17 in the province of Ontario as well as three in the United States, with two in the state of Michigan and one in the state of Pennsylvania.

chl.ca

All played AAA level (the Canadian players).

The feeder (in the Ottawa area) is the HEO AAA league (HEO ‘AAA’ Hockey League). If you want your kids to have a chance, you better pony up to get them into that league.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

95+% of CHL kids are drafted out of AAA Bantam and AAA Midget.

If you aren't playing at that level, you're not getting on Hockey Canada's radar.

To play on those teams, you're generally paying more than 5 grand in registration alone. Another couple hundred in equipment, another ton in travel.

If you're not paying ~5+k in fees from 13-15, you're generally not getting on Hockey Canada's radar, and are irrelevant to what you see as a declining program

Tons, a majority, of parents can't afford that. Doesn't matter much if they have a new iPhone or a Motorolla Razr

Not to mention a lot of these kids parents pay for private skating and skills coaching from very early ages now.
From Peewee on the top players are paying 10k + a year. Its crazy even at younger ages what parents are spending

Its expensive ,, Canadian parents and I am sure in the US too invest in their kids ... which is fantastic on one hand but we also lose some due to the expense

Look at the price of skates alone now... These kids playing AAA are all in the top equipment

 

[BondraTime]

See, unless I'm mistaken, when I was growing up. The top league was AA.

You had the Cumberland barons, the Orleans blues, and the Gloucester Rangers, just to name a few teams. They didn't have a AAA team.

AAA was an off season select league.

After AA, you would get scouted by the local junior A teams like the Cumberland grads or the Ottawa jr senators or the Ottawa jr 67s... Which was JR A. And then the next league up was major JR A in the OHL or QMJHL. There was of course jr B but that is not a pipeline to the NHL.

Possibly, I'm not sure how far back that is, but I know for sure at the bare minimum it's been the highest, and main feeder for the CHL since at least 95' for Quebec and the Atlantic provinces, and with the Air Canada/Telus Cup being on the go through the 80's, I'd imagine it was then as well