Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[WolfHouse]

I think neither of Heinola or Stanley fit the top 4 criteria for Arniel.

From what I have seen the worst game Heinola played this season was against Vegas, a heavy forecheck team. Playing against smaller soft forwards, Heinola can outskate them, but this isn't that game. Hard to the net the Sens will go. Hard in the corners. Maybe Arniel wants to avoid the breakdowns he saw against Vegas, where there was some difficulty moving the puck out of our own end. Ottawa isn't as aggressive on defense as Vegas, but they can all play the boards. Which was a problem in that game, moving the puck up the boards.

Coghlan might be able to absorb a few more hits to make plays. Got a nice rush goal on the Moose which probably helped his cause. Let's see what he can do before we criticize the coach and management for having no sense.

Because to me every opponent is different and should be approached differently. So far Arniel is getting more success out of Heinola than any other previous coach has, so maybe he's pushing the right buttons.

You mean the vegas game where stan's weak ass pass to.vegas in our own zone was the difference in the game...? Hahha yeah tough one for heinola...

Toronto is one of the hardest forechecking teams in the league and the wild one of the toughest trap teams - it is what it is... but we are starting to reach pretty far for logic here

 

[KingBogo]

I think neither of Heinola or Stanley fit the top 4 criteria for Arniel.

From what I have seen the worst game Heinola played this season was against Vegas, a heavy forecheck team. Playing against smaller soft forwards, Heinola can outskate them, but this isn't that game. Hard to the net the Sens will go. Hard in the corners. Maybe Arniel wants to avoid the breakdowns he saw against Vegas, where there was some difficulty moving the puck out of our own end. Ottawa isn't as aggressive on defense as Vegas, but they can all play the boards. Which was a problem in that game, moving the puck up the boards.

Coghlan might be able to absorb a few more hits to make plays. Got a nice rush goal on the Moose which probably helped his cause. Let's see what he can do before we criticize the coach and management for having no sense.

Because to me every opponent is different and should be approached differently. So far Arniel is getting more success out of Heinola than any other previous coach has, so maybe he's pushing the right buttons.

Personally I don’t think Stan or Villie would be in the lineup of a cup winner. Both have major liabilities that can’t be masked in a playoff run where teams will take advantage of your weaknesses. I’m of the opinion that Fleury is now above both and that Chevy will a make a move to improve on Fleury.

 

[voyageur]

You mean the vegas game where stan's weak ass pass to.vegas in our own zone was the difference in the game...? Hahha yeah tough one for heinola...

Toronto is one of the hardest forechecking teams in the league and the wild one of the toughest trap teams - it is what it is... but we are starting to reach pretty far for logic here

Heinola couldn't move the puck at all that game. The Stanley pass, that if anyone else made you wouldn't have heard anything about, but the bone that needs to picked for those who can't stand the guy. Heinola was the one who got benched not Stanley, so what did the coaches see?

I'm sorry man but Mitch Marner, William Nylander, Max Domi don't bear down on your. Or Nick Robertson. Watch Tkachuk and Batherson, Cousins and Greig play and tell me they are the same. That's all. If you really think Ville could handle top PK against these guys I'm not sure what you've seen, but it's not matching my eye test.

 

[voyageur]

Personally I don’t think Stan or Villie would be in the lineup of a cup winner. Both have major liabilities that can’t be masked in a playoff run where teams will take advantage of your weaknesses. I’m of the opinion that Fleury is now above both and that Chevy will a make a move to improve on Fleury.

We're in Winnipeg. And we play the cards we've been dealt. At least Heinola has ended any Chisholm discussions because they were competing for the same spot. I see weaknesses on every defense in the West, Vegas is probably the best, which reflects in the points they've accumulated. These weaknesses could lead to some major moves. But the whole arguing over which 3LD is the best and complaining every single time Stanley gets in the lineup is going to be a familiar refrain well into February. It's part of the ride.

Arniel has got results. I think he's using all of his players so far. I'm pretty happy with the coaches we have, the armchair coaches can only have expected results.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Arniel has got results. I think he's using all of his players so far. I'm pretty happy with the coaches we have, the armchair coaches can only have expected results.

I have to agree with this.....

 

[surixon]

Moving Heinola at the TDL seems likely to me as well. It looks like the organization has him as the #5 LHD behind Morrissey, Samberg, Fleury and Stan. I think Arniel likes what Stanley brings but knows he can’t handle anything above the 3rd pairing. I wouldn’t be surprised if Chevy adds a veteran D with size by the TDL.

Agreed, Chevy needs to double down on the build from the net out philosophy we have adopted.

We need a a good two way second pairing LD who can PK, and that can carry a bottom pairing and step up the lineup if needed.

 

[Cnile]

Stanley has played 161 games over the last 4 1/2 seasons. That is an average of 36 games a season. He has been used as a typical bottom pairing PB player. He would likely get similar usage on most teams.

I disagree.
Path not taken.
Not able to prove one way or another.
He is not a good defender, he certainly has little to zero offensive instincts and his physicality is very meh

 

[voyageur]

Agreed, Chevy needs to double down on the build from the net out philosophy we have adopted.

We need a a good two way second pairing LD who can PK, and that can carry a bottom pairing and step up the lineup if needed.

People don't realize how good of a situation the Jets are in. They aren't in any Cap Hell, they can maneuver players around the lineup. They've used 24 skaters so far this year. 9 on defense. By the deadline they can' add some more, probably carry as many as 15 forwards and 10 d-men under the Cap after the deadline. Maybe even start some load management with the regulars if the Jets get clear of the pack, which in the West, from #4 to #10, is a 6 point separation. Jets are 9 points ahead of #6, or #3 in the division.

I'm sure there will be an add on defense, for more experience. And at least an add or two up front. I don't see the need to subtract when the season has been about trying to build some chemistry at the bottom of the lineup, fighting through injuries. Having Heinola signed for next year, maybe the more he plays the more opportunities he gets, like a home playoff game, to put under his belt. Once the playoffs start I think you don't have the same apprehension using Josh Morrissey on the PK, it's just getting him there healthy that matters.

All the debate about LD but RD becomes extremely unrpoven with one injury, so I think it's equal parts there, someone who can fill in on either side.

 

[KingBogo]

People don't realize how good of a situation the Jets are in. They aren't in any Cap Hell, they can maneuver players around the lineup. They've used 24 skaters so far this year. 9 on defense. By the deadline they can' add some more, probably carry as many as 15 forwards and 10 d-men under the Cap after the deadline. Maybe even start some load management with the regulars if the Jets get clear of the pack, which in the West, from #4 to #10, is a 6 point separation. Jets are 9 points ahead of #6, or #3 in the division.

I'm sure there will be an add on defense, for more experience. And at least an add or two up front. I don't see the need to subtract when the season has been about trying to build some chemistry at the bottom of the lineup, fighting through injuries. Having Heinola signed for next year, maybe the more he plays the more opportunities he gets, like a home playoff game, to put under his belt. Once the playoffs start I think you don't have the same apprehension using Josh Morrissey on the PK, it's just getting him there healthy that matters.

All the debate about LD but RD becomes extremely unrpoven with one injury, so I think it's equal parts there, someone who can fill in on either side.

I think the organization beefs up on defense and tries to plug their #2 center hole again. I just hope Chevy looks more at hockey trades than rentals.

I disagree.
Path not taken.
Not able to prove one way or another.
He is not a good defender, he certainly has little to zero offensive instincts and his physicality is very meh

Actually Stanley isn’t bad offensively. His mobility is an issue. But most teams have similar players in their 6-8 range.

 

[surixon]

I think the organization beefs up on defense and tries to plug their #2 center hole again. I just hope Chevy looks more at hockey trades than rentals.


Actually Stanley isn’t bad offensively. His mobility is an issue. But most teams have similar players in their 6-8 range.

Despite being typecast there, he's never been very good defensively.

He had some modest success as an offensive dmen in junior.

 

[KingBogo]

Despite being typecast there, he's never been very good defensively.

He had some modest success as an offensive dmen in junior.

IMO Fleury is ahead of both Stan and Heinola. Saying that I think Chevy tries to upgrade above all of them before the TDL.

 

[voyageur]

I think the organization beefs up on defense and tries to plug their #2 center hole again. I just hope Chevy looks more at hockey trades than rentals.

If Chevy was looking at Henrique in the offseason you have to believe it's the number one position he's trying to add depth to. But has to wait for the right opportunity.

I've got a little bit of hope that Fleury can steady his play on a 3rd pairing to secure a spot. But it's likely an upgrade is needed to compete in the playoffs.

Hockey trades at the deadline are very rare. And I don't think Chevy makes the first move in the position he is in. The GMs that are feeling more pressure will move first.

In terms of draft and develop, Perfetti, Samberg, Stanley, Heinola, Chibrikov and Lambert have all had greater opportunities this year, beyond the core. Salomonsson isn't too far away if you listen to Scotty. It's probably a more positive season than is spun on here.

 

[KingBogo]

If Chevy was looking at Henrique in the offseason you have to believe it's the number one position he's trying to add depth to. But has to wait for the right opportunity.

I've got a little bit of hope that Fleury can steady his play on a 3rd pairing to secure a spot. But it's likely an upgrade is needed to compete in the playoffs.

Hockey trades at the deadline are very rare. And I don't think Chevy makes the first move in the position he is in. The GMs that are feeling more pressure will move first.

In terms of draft and develop, Perfetti, Samberg, Stanley, Heinola, Chibrikov and Lambert have all had greater opportunities this year, beyond the core. Salomonsson isn't too far away if you listen to Scotty. It's probably a more positive season than is spun on here.

Do you think the necessary upgrades can come from within? I can’t shake the feeling we will be again trying to upgrade at #2 center and at defense again. Of course the Ehlers situation needs to be addressed.

 

[voyageur]

Do you think the necessary upgrades can come from within? I can’t shake the feeling we will be again trying to upgrade at #2 center and at defense again. Of course the Ehlers situation needs to be addressed.

I don't. Trade deadline is an opportunity to upgrade, but usually not long term. Maybe you get a player who you like that sticks around, like De Melo, Nino, or Miller.

Hasn't been the case with 2Cs other than Vlad, who came into the lineup in a lesser role. But Lowry is performing at a 2C level this year which takes some pressure off Chevy. He will probably get some interesting calls from teams who try to get draft picks from him. The draft and develop mold probably makes almost every roster player/prospect valuable to maintain. If nothing else for depth and the future.

I am not sure what Chevy can do with Ehlers. Trading him now seems impossible. Maybe you bank on a career year when you need it most. There's a lot of key players going towards UFA in the West, like Rantanen, Boeser, Benn and Duchene. The Jets may be in a better position to replace their losses internally than any of those teams, who will likely overpay in free agency.

 

[LowLefty]

Do you think the necessary upgrades can come from within? I can’t shake the feeling we will be again trying to upgrade at #2 center and at defense again. Of course the Ehlers situation needs to be addressed.

I'd think Ehlers can do a lot of the things a center does without being a center -
That line is good if they can get it together for a stretch - they've shown it in the past.
I have no issues with Names - he's mostly defensive and works hard - I'd be happy if he was able to carry a lot of the d load on that line.
Perfetti and Ehlers should be able to drive the line and produce - and I don't think they need another line driver to get it done (especially Ehlers).
I'm hoping they leave the line alone and skip on the upgrades - if they need to upgrade, focus on the blueline - one more competent 2 way dman (either side) would be a huge help - and I'd be OK with a guy that is more defensive minded.

 

[surixon]

I'd think Ehlers can do a lot of the things a center does without being a center -
That line is good if they can get it together for a stretch - they've shown it in the past.
I have no issues with Names - he's mostly defensive and works hard - I'd be happy if he was able to carry a lot of the d load on that line.
Perfetti and Ehlers should be able to drive the line and produce - and I don't think they need another line driver to get it done (especially Ehlers).
I'm hoping they leave the line alone and skip on the upgrades - if they need to upgrade, focus on the blueline - one more competent 2 way dman (either side) would be a huge help - and I'd be OK with a guy that is more defensive minded.

I agree with this. I think they need to focus on strengthening the defense.

 

[ps241]

I'd think Ehlers can do a lot of the things a center does without being a center -
That line is good if they can get it together for a stretch - they've shown it in the past.
I have no issues with Names - he's mostly defensive and works hard - I'd be happy if he was able to carry a lot of the d load on that line.
Perfetti and Ehlers should be able to drive the line and produce - and I don't think they need another line driver to get it done (especially Ehlers).
I'm hoping they leave the line alone and skip on the upgrades - if they need to upgrade, focus on the blueline - one more competent 2 way dman (either side) would be a huge help - and I'd be OK with a guy that is more defensive minded.

I agree with this. I think they need to focus on strengthening the defense.

100% agree

Our 2nd line is good enough for a playoff run. We are in 1st place overall right now. I don’t mind bolstering the D at the deadline as long as we get the one year extra term on our target.

Especially if we are doing an own rental on Nik.

 

[Whileee]

We're in Winnipeg. And we play the cards we've been dealt. At least Heinola has ended any Chisholm discussions because they were competing for the same spot. I see weaknesses on every defense in the West, Vegas is probably the best, which reflects in the points they've accumulated. These weaknesses could lead to some major moves. But the whole arguing over which 3LD is the best and complaining every single time Stanley gets in the lineup is going to be a familiar refrain well into February. It's part of the ride.

Arniel has got results. I think he's using all of his players so far. I'm pretty happy with the coaches we have, the armchair coaches can only have expected results.

I respect the Jets performance this far, and the coaching behind it. But the Jets need to prepare for the playoffs and I still remember how Arniel was coaching a D that was very effective last season and then inexplicably broke it up to insert Stanley, shifting Samberg to his off side. The results were awful and Stanley ended up in the press box even after injuries to Morrissey and Dillon.

So I think it's reasonable to question whether Arniel overvalues Stanley as the Jets prepare for the playoffs again.

 

[voyageur]

I respect the Jets performance this far, and the coaching behind it. But the Jets need to prepare for the playoffs and I still remember how Arniel was coaching a D that was very effective last season and then inexplicably broke it up to insert Stanley, shifting Samberg to his off side. The results were awful and Stanley ended up in the press box even after injuries to Morrissey and Dillon.

So I think it's reasonable to question whether Arniel overvalues Stanley as the Jets prepare for the playoffs again.

The regular seasons results were good, part of the season ending winning streak. Including the beatdown on Colorado. The playoff results weren't. Schmidt hit a wall last year, so I think subbing one left d for another wasn't a bad move. Samberg would probably be #1 RD if he played his offside.

It's a valid question about Stanley though.

 

[Jet]

I'd think Ehlers can do a lot of the things a center does without being a center -
That line is good if they can get it together for a stretch - they've shown it in the past.
I have no issues with Names - he's mostly defensive and works hard - I'd be happy if he was able to carry a lot of the d load on that line.
Perfetti and Ehlers should be able to drive the line and produce - and I don't think they need another line driver to get it done (especially Ehlers).
I'm hoping they leave the line alone and skip on the upgrades - if they need to upgrade, focus on the blueline - one more competent 2 way dman (either side) would be a huge help - and I'd be OK with a guy that is more defensive minded.

I'm of the same mind. I think if Chevy can perform some of his magic to get a legit 2c with size and speed, you go for it.

However, for all the hand wringing going on around here about who should play between Fleury, Miller, Heinola, Stanley, and Coghlan, they are all pretty much 6-7 D in a strong core, and though Fleury has performed admirably filling in on the second pair, the loss of snerg shows the weakness especially with Fleury going down. I am interested to see how Miller does with Pionk, that 'should' be a decent pair.

I think getting a legit second pair guy, be it L or R has to be Chevys #1 prio. That gives us some options in case of injury and can strengthen the bottom pair no matter who is playing there.

Of course I'd love for him to hit it out of the park and get a 1RD to play with Jomo which would further insulate, but that's a very tall order.

 

[voyageur]

100% agree

Our 2nd line is good enough for a playoff run. We are in 1st place overall right now. I don’t mind bolstering the D at the deadline as long as we get the one year extra term on our target.

Especially if we are doing an own rental on Nik.

Ehlers process if going to be interesting because technically KFC can't renegotiate his contract until part way through training camp since that's when he signed, when the Jets were juggling his and Laine's contracts, and they gave him the long term and Laine the bridge. In retrospect that was the right decision but I think that was questioned by many at the time.

Now I imagine the exit meetings with KFC go something to the extent of are you willing to re-sign? If the answer is yes then it's an easy process. Sign him in camp, and let Ehlers go, maybe trade him for a late draft pick to a team that wants to extend a negotiating window. If the answer is no it's probably a trade looming. If KFC is traded do the Jets double down on Ehlers? Because it's not a large drop off from one to the other, but it's a huge drop off after that, probably enough to affect the Jets playoff chances.

I still think the Jets need to add at C. Because an injury to Namestnikov doesn't look replaceable internally. Doubtful Lambert or Kupari could perform as 2C in the playoffs. Maybe Lowry could and Kupari takes the 3C, but it's stretching the talent level thin.

I think this is a definite add position for the Jets. Maybe it's a 4C who can play 2C. That might be my preference just to keep some quality draft picks, and not lose out on prospects in the arms race with other divisional foes. I feel like the Jets need to draft a quality defenseman in 2025, because the cupboards aren't full there.

I'd hope that the picks Chevy uses as trade collateral are this year's 3rd, next year's 2nd, and prospects that are uncertain like Rashevsky, Levis, or maybe a prospect who isn't going to surpass the impact of a re-signed Appleton, like Parker Ford.

 

[Jet]

I respect the Jets performance this far, and the coaching behind it. But the Jets need to prepare for the playoffs and I still remember how Arniel was coaching a D that was very effective last season and then inexplicably broke it up to insert Stanley, shifting Samberg to his off side. The results were awful and Stanley ended up in the press box even after injuries to Morrissey and Dillon.

So I think it's reasonable to question whether Arniel overvalues Stanley as the Jets prepare for the playoffs again.

I wonder if they're using this season to see if they can get Stan to a place where he's playoff ready?

The one biggest knock on him is his speed and agility, but the breakdowns that allowed the Avs to expose him so badly were happening to other D 2, and it was a team breakdown.

Too much separation between D and F leading to turnovers and failed clears, not enough pressure by the F through the neutral zone causing the D to back off the blueline allowing easy entries, and not enough forward support at the offensive blueline led to of man advantages and less aggressiveness by the D.

2 things the Jets must improve if they want to have success this year:

Figuring out how to counter teams' stretching them out to circumvent our 5 man forecheck/ possession game, and

Recognizing that you can't always make a pretty exit with possession. Sometimes, you just need to break the other teams cycle.

 

[WolfHouse]

I wonder if they're using this season to see if they can get Stan to a place where he's playoff ready?

The one biggest knock on him is his speed and agility, but the breakdowns that allowed the Avs to expose him so badly were happening to other D 2, and it was a team breakdown.

Too much separation between D and F leading to turnovers and failed clears, not enough pressure by the F through the neutral zone causing the D to back off the blueline allowing easy entries, and not enough forward support at the offensive blueline led to of man advantages and less aggressiveness by the D.

2 things the Jets must improve if they want to have success this year:

Figuring out how to counter teams' stretching them out to circumvent our 5 man forecheck/ possession game, and

Recognizing that you can't always make a pretty exit with possession. Sometimes, you just need to break the other teams cycle.

Thing is... this is what i saw in the toronto game - the jets weathered the early storm and countered - traditionally they have collapsed...

Avs and kings will.be a good test - hillier has a real.aggressive system

 

[Buffdog]

Ehlers process if going to be interesting because technically KFC can't renegotiate his contract until part way through training camp since that's when he signed, when the Jets were juggling his and Laine's contracts, and they gave him the long term and Laine the bridge. In retrospect that was the right decision but I think that was questioned by many at the time.

Now I imagine the exit meetings with KFC go something to the extent of are you willing to re-sign? If the answer is yes then it's an easy process. Sign him in camp, and let Ehlers go, maybe trade him for a late draft pick to a team that wants to extend a negotiating window. If the answer is no it's probably a trade looming. If KFC is traded do the Jets double down on Ehlers? Because it's not a large drop off from one to the other, but it's a huge drop off after that, probably enough to affect the Jets playoff chances.

I still think the Jets need to add at C. Because an injury to Namestnikov doesn't look replaceable internally. Doubtful Lambert or Kupari could perform as 2C in the playoffs. Maybe Lowry could and Kupari takes the 3C, but it's stretching the talent level thin.

I think this is a definite add position for the Jets. Maybe it's a 4C who can play 2C. That might be my preference just to keep some quality draft picks, and not lose out on prospects in the arms race with other divisional foes. I feel like the Jets need to draft a quality defenseman in 2025, because the cupboards aren't full there.

I'd hope that the picks Chevy uses as trade collateral are this year's 3rd, next year's 2nd, and prospects that are uncertain like Rashevsky, Levis, or maybe a prospect who isn't going to surpass the impact of a re-signed Appleton, like Parker Ford.

KFC can extend July 1 2025 and there's nothing stopping him and the team from negotiating a deal in place before that

 

[voyageur]

KFC can extend July 1 2025 and there's nothing stopping him and the team from negotiating a deal in place before that

Are you sure? I thought the negotiating window was one year to the date of the last contract signed. That would make life easier for Chevy in what will be a busy offseason.