Wings fan spoke: It's Time for Holland to move on (but we'll still talk about him)

Henkka

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If I recall correctly, Athanasiou had a tremendous ratio as well.

Athanasiou had highest ratio from all NHL, 3.0 drawn per 60, and took zero minors himself. His only penalty at last season was a fight.

2015-16 Penalties Drawn - Taken /60 plusminus (players +30 games)

1. Athanasiou, Drawn +3.0pen/60min - Taken 0.0pen/60min = +3.0
2. Nick Cousins, Drawn +1.8, taken -0.2 = +1.6
3. Nazem Kadri, +2.6 -1.1 = +1.5
4. Kyle Palmieri, +1.9 -0.5 = +1.4
5. Charlie Coyle, +1.4 -0.2 = +1.2
6. J.Marchessault, +1.5 -0.3 = +1.2
7. Brendan Callagher, +1.3 -0.2 = +1.1
8. Anton Lander, +1.4 -0.3 = +1.1
9. Tobias Rieder +1.2 -0.2 = +1.0
10. Zemgus Girgensons +1.4 -0.4 = +1.0

Darren Helm +1.5 -0.7 = +0.8
Dylan Larkin +1.1 -0.5 = +0.6
Frans Nielsen +0.7 -0.2 = +0.5
Steve Ott +1.3 -0.9 = +0.4
Tomas Tatar +0.8 -0.4 = +0.4
Pavel Datsyuk +0.8 -0.4 = +0.4
Teemu Pulkkinen +1.2 -0.9 = +0.3
Henrik Zetterberg +0.6 -0.4 =+0.2
Gustav Nyquist +0.7 -0.6 = +0.1

Luke Glendening +0.9 -1.0 = -0.1
Riley Sheahan +0.3 -0.4 = -0.1
Brad Richards +0.1 -0.2 = -0.1
Justin Abdelkader +0.9 -1.1 = -0.2
Tomas Vanek +0.4 -0.7 = -0.3
Tomas Jurco +0.6 -1.1 = -0.5
 
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njx9

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AA should have Glendening, Miller, or Ott's position. Can we agree to ridicule and debase these 3 instead of Helm?

Why? Miller's and Ott are signed for 1 year for peanuts. Glendening makes an appropriate amount of money for a 27 year old 4th line center, and isn't signed until he's 35. If Helm had the same contract, no one would have made more than a post about it. Instead, a mediocre player has a lifetime contract for a significant amount of money, and we get to decide whether or not to trade Mantha or let Las Vegas take him for free. I love Darren Helm the player on the 2008-2009 Wings. He does nothing for the 2016-17 Wings that fifty other guys couldn't do just as effectively for less money.

But whatever, it's almost October. I'm over it. The team is what it is.
 
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Henkka

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. I love Darren Helm the player on the 2008-2009 Wings. He does nothing for the 2016-17 Wings that fifty other guys couldn't do just as effectively for less money.

Still waiting to see that list of those fifty players.

I'd like to see a 50 player list of those cheaper NHL players, who were free agents at last summer (or few summers ago to get more possibilities for Holland to aquire a replacement), and who were better or equal than Darren Helm in these areas?

- Top60 rank at individual corsi
- Top40 rank at Corsi%
- Can play wing and Center
- Wins 51-52% of his faceoffs if used as Center
- Is one of fastest skaters in the league
- Is a decent penalty killer
- Can play net-front role in offensive lines
- Has Top10 rank at Penalties Drawn/taken plusminus, if game sample size is +60 games.
 
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Winger98

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Admittedly I'm far too emotionally attached to this single player. I can appreciate the continual logic you've used to explain a different approach. If we were to miss the PO's could Helm be traded off?


I don't think so, but it's not because of Helm so much as it is the expansion draft. We'd have to find a team Helm would okay a trade to, and which had the open protection spot for him. And if we're moving Helm, is it at least partially to free up that protection spot for one of our guys or are we willing to accept someone back who we would want to protect?
 

One Blurred Eye

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It's the basic counter-argument in here for everything positive.

If power-play struggled at last season, it doesn't mean anything how it will work at next season. It worked well a season before. Now there's new assistant coaches again, and new net-front precense. You don't know how it will work.

Even a bad-working power-play is a better chance to score than being even-strength. So Helm does help this team by drawing penalties significantly more than he takes. Over and out. Don't be smart-ass, or do I have to find some mathematical proof for you?

I do enjoy my realism being framed in the negative with the charming pejorative (though I always preferred Nellie To Nancy--the soft 'e' providing more consistency in the musicality of the phrase), and perhaps I can't even deny the accusation. Let us look upon the defects of our beloved team with open and clear eyes, I say. Shine no turds. Rain on all pre-planned cup-parades the moment of their conception, from out the very clouds in which we find our thinnest linings of silver. To be fair to me though, I clung to the tiniest shred of hope that Pavel would return this year right to the end--so in light of that disappointment, I wonder if my perceived negativity can't be somewhat forgiven?

And anyhow, let it not be said that the point of Helm's penalty ratio wasn't well considered by the author of the original line. So let's throw some numbers at your premise to explore the impact of Helm's contribution in this regard. I'm not one to pin a player's value wholly upon the goals and points in his stat line, I too am a champion of many of those "little things" that help win hockey games, of which Helm has been an exemplar. But the contextual realities cannot be ignored either. Detroit's PP last year was, admittedly, not terrible--but it was never better than middling, and only likely to regress with the departure of Datsyuk, the further decline of Zetterberg and no improvement in the puck-moving/PP-quarterbacking in the backend (as of yet). Net front-presence means little-to-nothing when the players on your point can't get shots through defenders or in the vicinity of the net (or for that matter, if the unit can't enter the zone, or can't retain possession with loose pucks at the blue line). Nothing outside of sheer self-delusion indicates they'll be any better in that regard this year. But let's be generous, and allow that they convert at 25% clip anyway, just because the Hockey Gods decree it be--and we'll also generously allow that Helm's drawn/taken ratio puts Detroit on the advantage an extra 20 times this season than they would have been otherwise. That tallies out to five extra goals, which is nice, and if those extra goals fall right, they help us win five more games, which would be really nice! That can make a huge difference in the standings. But practically speaking, it's probably more like two or three wins at very best, and equally likely the extra goals show up in games we'd lose anyway, or games we'd win anyway. Overtimes soften the impact of the point accrued as well. So what portion of Helm's salary/caphit are those goals and potential two or three wins worth this year, and how much will that investment diminish in the remaining years of his contract? Wouldn't that money/cap-space have been better allocated now or in coming seasons to a player with a more direct impact on the offensive fortunes (and possibly defensive fortunes) of the team? Myself, the price of those handful of victories seems too steep, and I'd have been inclined to bide my time and let Helm walk, even accounting for the other things Helm brings to the table.

But again, not solely on goals shall I hang my assessment; a timely penalty can swing the fortunes of a game regardless if a goal is scored on the ensuing powerplay. So let us allow the same 20 extra advantages given; ideally that aids in 20 wins, should all the cards fall right--Helm draws a crucial penalty to kill the other team's PP or snuff out an otherwise momentous shift, that sort of thing, in 20 games where it swings us into the W column. Wouldn't that be incredible? But again we have to account (crudely) for the statistical noise inherent in the highly complex quantum system that is hockey, owing to all the variables difficult or impossible to account for, and all the entanglements therein--so a more realistic highly-optimistic estimate is Helm's positive penalty ratio aids in eight to ten more wins. Still pretty good. But a safer estimate is somewhere in the four to six win range, and a more realistic estimate tops out at four. Still, that can spell the difference between golfing or playoffs, or or getting home ice or starting on the road. But that's only for the upcoming season, and assumes no regression on Helm's part; the likelihood of Helm matching that impact in subsequent years of the contract becoming compoundingly less and less. So again the long-term investment appears dubious on that account. And then I'd wager any lad with horse legs, skates, a stick and a decent work ethic, given similar ice time, would provide similar impact in that specific regard, being available for less cost and term, and being younger and of less-questionable durability to boot. Helm's margin over such a replacement probably is at best two wins. Though indeed it is a bit silly to claim Helm could be easily replaced cheaply and immediately--you give up a skilled, experienced defender and leader in the trade-off for the cost-controlled youngster. But the vast majority of Helm's assets are learnable and teachable; speedy skaters are not the rarest of commodities; and "good locker room guys" aren't particularly uncommon either. By the time Detroit is poised for relevance again (in three-to-five years, the uglier side of Helm's contract), you've had ample enough time to draft and manicure a suitable replacement. Helm's two wins per season probably is of little importance in the wide scope in the interim. Facing economic and other uncertainties, again I'm inclined to hold onto my money rather than invest in a known-but-diminishing quantity like Helm.

Certainly we can patchwork together any number statistics with minor correlative significance with regard to winning hockey games to tell the tale of Helm's historical value as a hockey player, and no one should doubt its veracity--he was (and still is) a good player within his niche. All teams should want a Darren Helm, and any serious contender probably needs one. But of course that's the irony--only true contenders can realize Helm's true value--teams that have no need or desire to shove that square peg into their offensive units, and deploy him where he's most useful, in a energy/pk/lead protecting capacity (good teams get leads and hang on to them), and yet they wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't pay the premium the Wings paid this offseason for his continued service. They draft them or sign them cheap, just like the Wings did with Helm back in the day and let them walk when they get too pricey, as we should have done. So even when we hold up our patchwork Helm quilt to admire, at the end of the day we've squandered almost 20 million dollars on a five year installment and a significant portion of cap space for it, it isn't getting any newer and was never worth more than half that even when it was. For the record, I love Helm, and at half the price or half the term I'd have been a lot happier with his resigning. But as it is, it's hard to get behind it. While there's a lot of worse ways Holland could have spent the money, it doesn't change that there were probably wiser ways to invest it too.
 

The Zermanator

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AA should have Glendening, Miller, or Ott's position. Can we agree to ridicule and debase these 3 instead of Helm?

Yeah I'm just kidding around. :laugh:

But yes, I agree that Helm is much better than Miller and Ott (although I am a big fan of Glendening, feels like the 2nd coming of Draper sometimes). And I've been a Wings fan since '01 so I've been around for all the great years when Helm was a young, scrappy burner out there, love the guy. Problem I have is that Ott and Miller come at bargain prices so the impact is negligible, whereas Helm is expensive on both term and dollars. I think it was time to move on (I would have kept him on a smaller contract for a bottom 6 spot but he likely would have gotten better offers). AA and Mantha are better options offensively and that difference should only increase in the future, and for a team that's had a hard time scoring goals lately we need all the help we can get. Miller/Ott/Glendening (and even Jurco/Sheahan) are adequate as the defensive forward group, we need more dynamic offensive players like AA/Mantha.
 
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The Zermanator

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Or we know that they're not making decisions about the couple flashy plays a guy makes. If flashy plays were all that made you a good player, Alex Kovalev would be the greatest ever.

Helm didn't deserve the contract that he got. But Helm can do things that Athanasiou can't. Could they have not signed Helm and put Athanasiou in his role. They'd also be a worse team for it.

Bit of an understatement there, no? Athanasiou put up more highlight reel offensive plays in 37 games than Helm has in his entire career, I'd wager. And I wouldn't characterize plays that ended in goals as 'flashy', which implies a lack of substance. He scored goals and made things happen, the fact that it was 'flashy' is secondary.

The only really dangerous aspect of Helm's offensive game is his speed, but his ability to breakaway is more often than not counteracted by his inability to finish. AA showed some great finish in his stint and this team desperately needs more dynamic offensive players. AA fits the bill, Helm doesn't.

Helm is being paid as a mid-level offensive/defensive middle 6 tweener when he is best suited to a bottom 6 defensive role at this point. But it makes it very hard to navigate a salary cap environment when you're paying your bottom 6 guys middle 6 money. Helm got a sweetheart deal, and as a result of that commitment is getting a bigger role than he should given the makeup of the organization's depth chart.

So no I don't think they'd be worse off. Helm's defensive qualities can be replaced or close to it with much cheaper players, and Helm's offensive game can be improved upon by other much cheaper players. That's my gripe (which is towards Holland and not Helm, to be clear).

Athanasiou had highest ratio from all NHL, 3.0 drawn per 60, and took zero minors himself. His only penalty at last season was a fight.

Yep, speed kills. Really useful player to have, for a variety of reasons. And that he's shown these gifts in spades in just 37 games is very promising. :yo:
 

jkutswings

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It's the basic counter-argument in here for everything positive.

If power-play struggled at last season, it doesn't mean anything how it will work at next season. It worked well a season before. Now there's new assistant coaches again, and new net-front presence. You don't know how it will work.

Even a bad-working power-play is a better chance to score than being even-strength. So Helm does help this team by drawing penalties significantly more than he takes. Over and out. Don't be smart-ass, or do I have to find some mathematical proof for you?
I'm not sure what the disconnect is here.

Last year, the power play wasn't good. Therefore, drawing lots of penalties, while helpful, is not AS helpful as if the power play had been more potent. Perhaps the man advantage executes better this season, and the overall impact of drawing penalties will rise again.

But the overall point still remains. Darren Helm does certain things well. But the team is (once again) up against the cap, and its biggest needs are (once again) scoring and starting the rush. Helm is neither a potent scorer nor a puck moving defenseman. Does that mean he's a horrendous player? Definitely not. But perhaps his particular talents would be better suited to a team that is less desperate for offense, and more desperate for his brand of hockey.

Saying that his salary would be better put to use via another type of player isn't saying that Helm is a bum. It's being honest about the needs of the roster.
 

Pavels Dog

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janmarks first year in the NHL, 4 pts less then darren helms best year ever
jarnkroks 2nd year in the nhl, 3 pts less then darrens helms best year ever

now did we throw two 20million dollar players into the garbage or is helm simply not worth 20 million dollars?

guys who's career year is 33 pts are simply never worth 5 years and 20 million in a hard cap league because they can be EASILY replaced by guys we seemingly throw into the garbage
This is why you can't just look at points and think you know all there is to know about a player. But even so it's pointless looking at stuff like that since by the logic of "Holland is a terrible GM who gives out terrible contracts to terrible players", he would have signed Jarnkrok/Janmark to an equally bad or worse contract that Helm got.

Fact of the matter is our team's biggest flaws are the D and their inability to move the puck. One of the few ways to cope with that is to stack your forward group, and to stack it with speed. AA vs Helm is thinking you can only have 1 or 2 really speedy players on the team at the same time. AA+Helm+Larkin+Nielsen+Mantha is the way you should be thinking in order for our forward group to best make up for the weaknesses we have on D.

I'm not sure what the disconnect is here.

Last year, the power play wasn't good. Therefore, drawing lots of penalties, while helpful, is not AS helpful as if the power play had been more potent. Perhaps the man advantage executes better this season, and the overall impact of drawing penalties will rise again.

But the overall point still remains. Darren Helm does certain things well. But the team is (once again) up against the cap, and its biggest needs are (once again) scoring and starting the rush. Helm is neither a potent scorer nor a puck moving defenseman. Does that mean he's a horrendous player? Definitely not. But perhaps his particular talents would be better suited to a team that is less desperate for offense, and more desperate for his brand of hockey.

Saying that his salary would be better put to use via another type of player isn't saying that Helm is a bum. It's being honest about the needs of the roster.
Lol, everyone's been in agreement about how amazing AA was at drawing penalties, it's been a major point of hype for him. Now suddenly when we're talking Helm, it's pointless because OTHER players can't execute on those PP chances? That is completely and utter BS. Drawing penalties in a valuable quality no matter what. If you're protecting a lead, guys like Helm and AA can help put you on the PP wherre it's 10x easier to maintain that lead.

As for the salary of Helm being better put to use for other players, the question has to be what players? I'm sure Holland would have rather signed an elite PMD instead of Helm. But those aren't available. But as I mentioned above if you can't have a D that moves the puck great you can at least try to ice a forward group that can skate the puck out of trouble. We no longer have Datsyuk who could skate the puck from deep in the D zone into the O zone, but guys like AA, Larkin and Helm are actually able to pick up the puck defensively and on their own transition the puck to offense. That is very, very valuable on our current roster.
 
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This is flat-out ridiculous. The eye-test, advanced stats AND Blashill's usage all say that Athanasiou is the worst defensive forward on the team. He bleeds shots against more than any other forward on the roster, despite the fact that he has very favourable zone starts and low-quality competition. He's always been an all-offense, no defense player going back to his Barrie Colts days.
I didn't seem to think that when watching him play.

He was involved in scoring a LOT when he was on the ice, so hard to imagine he gave up more than he produced...
 

Frk It

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As for the salary of Helm being better put to use for other players, the question has to be what players? I'm sure Holland would have rather signed an elite PMD instead of Helm. But those aren't available. But as I mentioned above if you can't have a D that moves the puck great you can at least try to ice a forward group that can skate the puck out of trouble. We no longer have Datsyuk who could skate the puck from deep in the D zone into the O zone, but guys like AA, Larkin and Helm are actually able to pick up the puck defensively and on their own transition the puck to offense. That is very, very valuable on our current roster.

I'd rather just have that cap space, and more importantly roster spot open so we have some more flexibility with the roster.

But if I had to have used that money on something else, would have been Colborne or Demers.
 

Bench

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I don't think so, but it's not because of Helm so much as it is the expansion draft. We'd have to find a team Helm would okay a trade to, and which had the open protection spot for him. And if we're moving Helm, is it at least partially to free up that protection spot for one of our guys or are we willing to accept someone back who we would want to protect?

And like Holland needs another roadblock to making a trade. On top of his usual aversion he's got a salary cap crunch and the impending expansion draft.

I'm not holding out too much hope.
 

njx9

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Still waiting to see that list of those fifty players.

I'd like to see a 50 player list of those cheaper NHL players, who were free agents at last summer (or few summers ago to get more possibilities for Holland to aquire a replacement), and who were better or equal than Darren Helm in these areas?

- Top60 rank at individual corsi
- Top40 rank at Corsi%
- Can play wing and Center
- Wins 51-52% of his faceoffs if used as Center
- Is one of fastest skaters in the league
- Is a decent penalty killer
- Can play net-front role in offensive lines
- Has Top10 rank at Penalties Drawn/taken plusminus, if game sample size is +60 games.

Wins 51% of his 77 total taken faceoffs? Come on.

Can play Wing and Center? Is that really special?

It's awesome that he's fast, it means he gets to the other end and fires the puck into the crowd just a little bit faster. God forbid he was a step slower and could actually pass or shoot, right?

Darren Helm is *not* a good net front player, so the simple fact that he "can" is worthless.

Is a 'decent' penalty killer? Is that really irreplaceable?

His Corsi rankings do not turn into points. He's a terrible, terrible offensive player on a team that's already terrible at offense. He's a great energy player and forechecker on a team that does play offense well, which is why he was actually a pretty good addition to the 08/09 teams. It's also why he's worthless to this team. Darren Helm does *not* put this team into the playoffs, and he clearly doesn't win the team anything in the playoffs. He's a useless, overpaid part on a borderline playoff team.

All that said, you can pretty much go down this list of players. Find your forwards making an appropriate 4th line amount of money (see Miller, Ott and Glendening if you're unsure what that amount is, or just look at the average 4th line salary league-wide). Every single guy you find in that range would've been a better use of assets (and before you respond angrily, read that again: better use of assets).

Let's maybe stop letting the fact that Helm is a likable guy who plays a high-energy/fan-favorite kind of role get in the way of talking about what's actually good for a team that's been within 2 games of missing the playoffs the last 3 seasons and hasn't been improving over that span in any measurable way. Because of the horrific overpayment for a 4th-line-quality player, the Wings are up against the cap, with no room to maneuver. Because of idiotic contracts like Helm's, the team likely has to give up assets to move other bad contracts. Because of giving mediocre players long term, high dollar deals, the team has to waive younger, cheaper players, who go on to play similar roles with other teams.

*shrug* The sum total of giving out contracts, like Helm's and like Ericsson's and like Howard's is that the team is trapped, long-term, with mediocre to bad players, who don't improve the team and who had no business getting the term they got in the first place. There's a reason the Wings are stuck where they are, right now.
 

Zetterberg4Captain

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This is why you can't just look at points and think you know all there is to know about a player. But even so it's pointless looking at stuff like that since by the logic of "Holland is a terrible GM who gives out terrible contracts to terrible players", he would have signed Jarnkrok/Janmark to an equally bad or worse contract that Helm got.

Fact of the matter is our team's biggest flaws are the D and their inability to move the puck. One of the few ways to cope with that is to stack your forward group, and to stack it with speed. AA vs Helm is thinking you can only have 1 or 2 really speedy players on the team at the same time. AA+Helm+Larkin+Nielsen+Mantha is the way you should be thinking in order for our forward group to best make up for the weaknesses we have on D.


Lol, everyone's been in agreement about how amazing AA was at drawing penalties, it's been a major point of hype for him. Now suddenly when we're talking Helm, it's pointless because OTHER players can't execute on those PP chances? That is completely and utter BS. Drawing penalties in a valuable quality no matter what. If you're protecting a lead, guys like Helm and AA can help put you on the PP wherre it's 10x easier to maintain that lead.

As for the salary of Helm being better put to use for other players, the question has to be what players? I'm sure Holland would have rather signed an elite PMD instead of Helm. But those aren't available. But as I mentioned above if you can't have a D that moves the puck great you can at least try to ice a forward group that can skate the puck out of trouble. We no longer have Datsyuk who could skate the puck from deep in the D zone into the O zone, but guys like AA, Larkin and Helm are actually able to pick up the puck defensively and on their own transition the puck to offense. That is very, very valuable on our current roster.

Does helm really provide 20 million dollars worth of intangibles then players who are as offensive but whom we threw into the trash bin?

Does helm provide 19.2 million more in intangibles then miller?

Its a bad contract for a middling but nice guy player, end of story.
 

Pavels Dog

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Does helm really provide 20 million dollars worth of intangibles then players who are as offensive but whom we threw into the trash bin?

Does helm provide 19.2 million more in intangibles then miller?

Its a bad contract for a middling but nice guy player, end of story.
You skipped the important part though. If those players "we threw into the trash bin" are as good as Helm, why do you think it would have been cheaper to keep them? Nevermind the fact that by this logic we can NEVER trade anyone, because one day down the road they may develop into almost as good players as someone on our roster and they may or may not be cheaper that day and oh my god what if they're cheaper then we have to complain about it endlessly.

Helm is a good player. No the contract isn't great, but he certainly brings more elements valuable to this team than Miller, Jarnkrok or Janmark. A guy like Jarnkrok especially is the last thing our team needs, I can't believe anyone is still bitter about losing a guy like that while advocating that we gamble more by trading high-end prospects like Mantha/Svechnikov/Athanasiou.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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And like Holland needs another roadblock to making a trade. On top of his usual aversion he's got a salary cap crunch and the impending expansion draft.

I'm not holding out too much hope.

In a totally unrelated question to the impending expansion draft, does Helm have a NMC?
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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It's funny to see the pushback on here. There's been lots of defending Holland of late. I find that curious. Then again, I don't find it a very defensible position...

There is pushback because the vitriol towards him has become so overbearing. How dare our GM try to keep our team in the playoffs in the last couple years at the old rink towards getting a new rink which is also in the waning years of our owners life!
 

Ezekial

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In a totally unrelated question to the impending expansion draft, does Helm have a NMC?

He has a NTC that can be voided at certain times under certain parameters, but we are not required to protect him from the expansion draft like Nielsen.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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He has a NTC that can be voided at certain times under certain parameters, but we are not required to protect him from the expansion draft like Nielsen.

ok. thanks for the info!

It's not even that I want to lose Helm but with the wave of new signings I'm just curious who on the team is up for grabs come expansion draft.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Still waiting to see that list of those fifty players.

I'd like to see a 50 player list of those cheaper NHL players, who were free agents at last summer (or few summers ago to get more possibilities for Holland to aquire a replacement), and who were better or equal than Darren Helm in these areas?

- Top60 rank at individual corsi
- Top40 rank at Corsi%
- Can play wing and Center
- Wins 51-52% of his faceoffs if used as Center
- Is one of fastest skaters in the league
- Is a decent penalty killer
- Can play net-front role in offensive lines
- Has Top10 rank at Penalties Drawn/taken plusminus, if game sample size is +60 games.

Could you link to these advanced stats?

I'm not seeing Helm in the top 60 rank for individual or corsi% but may not be using the same parameters.

I also think using Corsi for individual players is where the stat really starts to get creaky.
 

WingedWheel1987

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I think people who still think Holland has a clue are going to change their tune after the first couple weeks of the season. He has assembled a very bad team with nothing to look forward in the short or long term.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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I think people who still think Holland has a clue are going to change their tune after the first couple weeks of the season. He has assembled a very bad team with nothing to look forward in the short or long term.

That's simply not true. Not one sentence of it.
 

ArGarBarGar

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44,045
11,764
You skipped the important part though. If those players "we threw into the trash bin" are as good as Helm, why do you think it would have been cheaper to keep them? Nevermind the fact that by this logic we can NEVER trade anyone, because one day down the road they may develop into almost as good players as someone on our roster and they may or may not be cheaper that day and oh my god what if they're cheaper then we have to complain about it endlessly.

Helm is a good player. No the contract isn't great, but he certainly brings more elements valuable to this team than Miller, Jarnkrok or Janmark. A guy like Jarnkrok especially is the last thing our team needs, I can't believe anyone is still bitter about losing a guy like that while advocating that we gamble more by trading high-end prospects like Mantha/Svechnikov/Athanasiou.

I'd rather have Jarnkrok for 2 million a season than Helm for 3.85 million a season.
 

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