GDT: Wings @ Bruins 7pm, 12-1-18

[raymond23]

Also Marchand is the biggest ****ing rat in the league. No idea how anyone can defend that sequence with him slashing Bert and Howard and not fighting anyone.

It was hilarious to watch him drop the gloves after the scrum is basically over.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Also Marchand is the biggest ****ing rat in the league. No idea how anyone can defend that sequence with him slashing Bert and Howard and not fighting anyone.

Marchand is such a funny case because given the type of reputation and game the Bruins traditionally play, their fanbase would hate his guts if he were on any other team.

 

[Bondurant]

Just getting around to awood40's recap video. I did a tremendous disservice to myself for missing the game. Flaked while binging F is for Family. What a game! Bertuzzi and Witkowski are warriors for the winged wheel. Rasmussen gets in on a hit. Howard goes nuts in goal and was ready to step up if not for the damned zebras. The goaltender interference call was NFL against the Lions grade crap. Rask flopped. I can see fudging the call live but what replay were they watching?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

yes, beautiful vintage open ice hit. Too bad that this led to a stupid fight, since this was as clean as it gets, as far as i see it

Definitely was clean.

I don't know how the Wings didn't end up with a PP after the Bruins chased Witkowski around until he dropped the gloves.

 

[Realgud]

Marchand is such a funny case because given the type of reputation and game the Bruins traditionally play, their fanbase would hate his guts if he were on any other team.

Or Jack Edwards constantly complaining about divers while Marchand is historically one the biggest diver (and Rask with a nice one yesterday too to cancel Bert's 2nd goal...)

I really despise the Bruins and their hypocrisy.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You wanna now why arguing against buffalo or Toronto is so illogical?

Elite dmen and elite centres

The reason edmonton still sucks is because they don't have that elite Dman but those others finally found them both and presto, you win

We will never be good enough untill such time as we add one way or another that elusive elite #1 Dman and elite #1 centre.

Way too simplified.

We need more talent but we also need development. We shouldn't panic about finding a #1D when Cholowski looks like one of the most promising U23D in the league. If we find ourselves in a position to draft a high-end D prospect, we should do it. But meanwhile if we are winning hockey games in large part because Cholowski is so smooth, it's not a negative. Finding a truly elite #1C would be great, but meanwhile if we are winning hockey games in large part because Larkin is able to go head-to-head against anyone in the league and hold his own, it's not a bad thing.

People are so stressed about finding those "can't miss", guaranteed elite superstars that they can't see the development happening before our eyes. Last night we looked physically dominant against Boston. Just a thing like that.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Way too simplified.

We need more talent but we also need development. We shouldn't panic about finding a #1D when Cholowski looks like one of the most promising U23D in the league. If we find ourselves in a position to draft a high-end D prospect, we should do it. But meanwhile if we are winning hockey games in large part because Cholowski is so smooth, it's not a negative. Finding a truly elite #1C would be great, but meanwhile if we are winning hockey games in large part because Larkin is able to go head-to-head against anyone in the league and hold his own, it's not a bad thing.

People are so stressed about finding those "can't miss", guaranteed elite superstars that they can't see the development happening before our eyes. Last night we looked physically dominant against Boston. Just a thing like that.

That wasn' my point pavel

People will rag on buffalo, Toronto, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona as examples how tanking for picks dosent always out

The answer is actually simple. Until you acquire that elite top line centre and elite #1 Dman you can tank all you want and it won' do you any good

I said you can acquire them any which way you want but you MUST acquire them

Its why buffalo now looks good and Toronto looks great

 

[Ingvar]

That wasn' my point pavel

People will rag on buffalo, Toronto, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona as examples how tanking for picks dosent always out

The answer is actually simple. Until you acquire that elite top line centre and elite #1 Dman you can tank all you want and it won' do you any good

I said you can acquire them any which way you want but you MUST acquire them

Its why buffalo now looks good and Toronto looks great

Neither of Buffalo, Toronto, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona did anything noteworthy yet. This “elite 1C and 1d” criteria is also really hindsight friendly because players magically become elite or get exposed after playoff results are known.

Does Toronto have elite 1D? Did they have elite 1C last season?

Does Oilers have elite 1D? They were 1 game away from conference final, would their 1D become elite if they got there?

Does Arizona have elite 1C? What if they reach playoffs?

Does Buffalo have elite 1D? Was Ristolainen not good enough? If they miss playoffs or drop out in the first round - does it mean that Dahlin is also not enough?

Do Preds have elite 1C? Do Knights have elite 1C and elite 1D? Did Pens have elite 1D in their last cup run? How can we explain their success then?

 

[jkutswings]

Neither of Buffalo, Toronto, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona did anything noteworthy yet. This “elite 1C and 1d” criteria is also really hindsight friendly because players magically become elite or get exposed after playoff results are known.

Does Toronto have elite 1D? Did they have elite 1C last season?

Does Oilers have elite 1D? They were 1 game away from conference final, would their 1D become elite if they got there?

Does Arizona have elite 1C? What if they reach playoffs?

Does Buffalo have elite 1D? Was Ristolainen not good enough? If they miss playoffs or drop out in the first round - does it mean that Dahlin is also not enough?

Do Preds have elite 1C? Do Knights have elite 1C and elite 1D? Did Pens have elite 1D in their last cup run? How can we explain their success then?

Name a Stanley Cup champ who doesn't have one of the best 10 centers in the league, AND one of the best 10 defensemen.

It probably happens every so often, but the vast majority of the last few decades worth of teams have had both.

Again, it was not stated that one or both must come from a top 3 draft pick. Just that those assets must be found somewhere, and they're not yet in the organization.

For example, if Cholowski has such a great career as to be both our best defenseman and Rafalski-esque, and Larkin/Veleno/Rasmussen all become 1B/2A kind of centers... That's enough to get to the 2nd or 3rd round, but I'm not optimistic that it'll be enough for 16 wins when it matters. You're clearly a playoff team, but you're a St Louis or a Columbus, making a little noise but never unseating the favorites.

Add 1-2 more great pieces, though, and now you're cooking with gas.

 

[pz29]

Neither of Buffalo, Toronto, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona did anything noteworthy yet. This “elite 1C and 1d” criteria is also really hindsight friendly because players magically become elite or get exposed after playoff results are known.

Does Toronto have elite 1D? Did they have elite 1C last season?

Does Oilers have elite 1D? They were 1 game away from conference final, would their 1D become elite if they got there?

Does Arizona have elite 1C? What if they reach playoffs?

Does Buffalo have elite 1D? Was Ristolainen not good enough? If they miss playoffs or drop out in the first round - does it mean that Dahlin is also not enough?

Do Preds have elite 1C? Do Knights have elite 1C and elite 1D? Did Pens have elite 1D in their last cup run? How can we explain their success then?

I get the whole thing about needing good players to have a good team. However, this is a team game, and having 1-2 "elite" players, whatever that even means, with a bunch of mediocre ones around them, will not win you anything. Secondly, I have said it before and I will say it again: pinning your hope on a lottery is not a plan. As someone a few posts above has said, it took Toronto and Buffalo over a decade of picking at the top to find anyone who resembles "elite." I am just not willing to wait that long. So, I am pleased that the young players we have are now driving this team, and I will rather do that that watching a 15-77 season hoping that someone "elite" will come my way in the next year or fifteen.

 

[masta8]

The goaltender interference call was NFL against the Lions grade crap. Rask flopped. I can see fudging the call live but what replay were they watching?

Agreed about the review. Rask's dive was so obvious that when they didn't count I was shocked. It wasn't even a good flop either like it was so obvious. Not gonna lie, I thought that the no goal was going to deflate the guys. Kudos for them to keep grinding.

 

[JoesuffP]

You don’t need to win the draft lottery to draft a top 10 center or defensemen. Classifying who is top 10 in their position is very vague as well. If Larkin scores 70 points and is a Selke candidate does that make him a top 10 center? 6 of the last 7 Norris trophy winners have zero cups. Duncan Keith the last Norris trophy winner to have won a Stanley cup was drated 54th overall. The notion that you can only win a Stanley cup by winning the draft lottery is ridiculous. Look at Nashville. Look at the Penguins defense. All we can gauge is higher draft picks = more individual awards but as far as team success, theirs a number of ways to go about it. It’s going to be hard to see the wings, one year removed from announcing a rebuild, as having any chance of a cup in the near future but keep stockpiling talent where they can and things will gradually change people’s outlook

 

[pz29]

You don’t need to win the draft lottery to draft a top 10 center or defensemen. Classifying who is top 10 in their position is very vague as well. If Larkin scores 70 points and is a Selke candidate does that make him a top 10 center? 6 of the last 7 Norris trophy winners have zero cups. Duncan Keith the last Norris trophy winner to have won a Stanley cup was drated 54th overall. The notion that you can only win a Stanley cup by winning the draft lottery is ridiculous. Look at Nashville. Look at the Penguins defense. All we can gauge is higher draft picks = more individual awards but as far as team success, theirs a number of ways to go about it. It’s going to be hard to see the wings, one year removed from announcing a rebuild, as having any chance of a cup in the near future but keep stockpiling talent where they can and things will gradually change people’s outlook

will a "top-10 player" be "elite" enough for the cork-sniffers on this forum? Has Dahlin been elite for Buffalo? I have not watched many of their games, but I do not hear his name be thrown around as much as some other ones. And he was supposed to be the second coming of Cofffey, Lidstrom, Robinson, and Bourke combined.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

will a "top-10 player" be "elite" enough for the cork-sniffers on this forum? Has Dahlin been elite for Buffalo? I have not watched many of their games, but I do not hear his name be thrown around as much as some other ones. And he was supposed to be the second coming of Cofffey, Lidstrom, Robinson, and Bourke combined.

Dahlin is 18 years old and has played 27 games in the NHL.

Feel free to link to whoever was saying he was supposed to be all those players combined.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

will a "top-10 player" be "elite" enough for the cork-sniffers on this forum? Has Dahlin been elite for Buffalo? I have not watched many of their games, but I do not hear his name be thrown around as much as some other ones. And he was supposed to be the second coming of Cofffey, Lidstrom, Robinson, and Bourke combined.

His last 15 games he has been very very good and yes I give a 18 year old rookie some games to get going

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Neither of Buffalo, Toronto, Edmonton, Florida, Arizona did anything noteworthy yet. This “elite 1C and 1d” criteria is also really hindsight friendly because players magically become elite or get exposed after playoff results are known.

Does Toronto have elite 1D? Did they have elite 1C last season?

Does Oilers have elite 1D? They were 1 game away from conference final, would their 1D become elite if they got there?

Does Arizona have elite 1C? What if they reach playoffs?

Does Buffalo have elite 1D? Was Ristolainen not good enough? If they miss playoffs or drop out in the first round - does it mean that Dahlin is also not enough?

Do Preds have elite 1C? Do Knights have elite 1C and elite 1D? Did Pens have elite 1D in their last cup run? How can we explain their success then?

What is this arguement, haven' done anything yet?

I know more Habs fans who think the wings accomplished back over their 25 year run compared to Montreal's 24 cups? Are they right?

The problem with that opinion is who defines the arguement?

Again I am not and have not said you MUST only dead elite talent in the top 3 otherwise it doesn't count.

I simply said you have to acquire it, period. Specifically you need an elite #1 Dman and centre.

 

[jkutswings]

will a "top-10 player" be "elite" enough for the cork-sniffers on this forum? Has Dahlin been elite for Buffalo? I have not watched many of their games, but I do not hear his name be thrown around as much as some other ones. And he was supposed to be the second coming of Cofffey, Lidstrom, Robinson, and Bourke combined.

The real question is: Do you believe that this franchise can beat the odds of finding two additional core players outside the top ten of the draft, while having all or nearly all the best players they've recently drafted pan out enough to become a perennial Cup contender?

Because while any scenario resulting in that degree of success is a long shot...what you're asking is a shot too long for me to consider it a reasonable expectation.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

will a "top-10 player" be "elite" enough for the cork-sniffers on this forum? Has Dahlin been elite for Buffalo? I have not watched many of their games, but I do not hear his name be thrown around as much as some other ones. And he was supposed to be the second coming of Cofffey, Lidstrom, Robinson, and Bourke combined.

Are you saying Dahlin has finished developing already?

 

[pz29]

Are you saying Dahlin has finished developing already?

No, far from it. But that is exactly the argument many here are making: we have to find someone who is already "fully baked," or "elite" from the get-go. Because, if not, then why worry about picking higher than 4 or 5?

 

[pz29]

The real question is: Do you believe that this franchise can beat the odds of finding two additional core players outside the top ten of the draft, while having all or nearly all the best players they've recently drafted pan out enough to become a perennial Cup contender?

Because while any scenario resulting in that degree of success is a long shot...what you're asking is a shot too long for me to consider it a reasonable expectation.

OK, let me turn this around for you: are you sure we can find someone amazing and generational? How do you know? No one knows, either way. My argument is simple: I don't want to wait for a messiah and throw season after season after season away, like Arizona, Edmonton, Buffalo, and others have done. I want to current team to play to its current ability, whatever it may be, whether win or lose. I am driven crazy by phrases like "let's get this tank back on track," because, to me, they mean intentionally throwing a season away for some ephemeral hope for one amazing player almost as year from now. That is all I am saying.

 

[jkutswings]

OK, let me turn this around for you: are you sure we can find someone amazing and generational? How do you know? No one knows, either way. My argument is simple: I don't want to wait for a messiah and throw season after season after season away, like Arizona, Edmonton, Buffalo, and others have done. I want to current team to play to its current ability, whatever it may be, whether win or lose. I am driven crazy by phrases like "let's get this tank back on track," because, to me, they mean intentionally throwing a season away for some ephemeral hope for one amazing player almost as year from now. That is all I am saying.

I care about chasing Cups, and that's it. Whether the team wins 10-0 or loses 10-0 on a Tuesday in December doesn't matter. So I want the kids to continue to develop, but I also want the team to lose enough games to miss the playoffs another year or two, and land a few more good players each of those drafts.

If they stop picking in the top ten now, I don't have confidence in them having and/or finding enough talent to be more than a token appearance in the playoffs, and I don't value that level of success.

If you're going to move to a new core of players, do everything you can to make that core as awesome as possible...or why bother?

 

[Bondurant]

OK, let me turn this around for you: are you sure we can find someone amazing and generational? How do you know? No one knows, either way. My argument is simple: I don't want to wait for a messiah and throw season after season after season away, like Arizona, Edmonton, Buffalo, and others have done. I want to current team to play to its current ability, whatever it may be, whether win or lose. I am driven crazy by phrases like "let's get this tank back on track," because, to me, they mean intentionally throwing a season away for some ephemeral hope for one amazing player almost as year from now. That is all I am saying.

Arizona only tanked for McEichel. The other futile seasons were the result of pauper ownership and buying contracts just to hit the cap floor. It wasn't a revolving rebuild via lottery like Edmonton.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

No, far from it. But that is exactly the argument many here are making: we have to find someone who is already "fully baked," or "elite" from the get-go. Because, if not, then why worry about picking higher than 4 or 5?

Because a top-5 pick is most likely to be elite in their prime and for longer? Who is saying that we need players who will be elite immediately? Those players don't come in every draft, let alone in the top-5 consistently.

 

[obey86]

If the Wings did terrible with their Larkin, Mantha, Cholowski, etc draft picks they are probably in a better position for a top pick in the draft next year than they would be otherwise. But the flip side of that is Larkin, Mantha, Chowloski, etc didn't work out as good picks is that the team would also be in terrible shape moving forward, whether they get that top pick or not. It's almost like some fans here are penalizing the Wings for their non top 5 draft picks working out better than expected and therefore the team isn't as bad as they would like it to be because of that. But if the Larkin, Chowloski etc picks all sucked they would be killing the management for being terrible drafters too.....so there's really not a way for them to win in the eyes of these people.

The reason Buffalo, Edmonton, Arizona, etc have accumulated so many top draft picks (and therefore so many shots at "elite players") is because they all were/are terrible at drafting outside of their super high draft picks. Unfortunately for the tanking crowd, the Wings haven't been that way lately.

 

[ricky0034]

If the Wings did terrible with their Larkin, Mantha, Cholowski, etc draft picks they are probably in a better position for a top pick in the draft next year than they would be otherwise. But the flip side of that is Larkin, Mantha, Chowloski, etc didn't work out as good picks is that the team would also be in terrible shape moving forward, whether they get that top pick or not. It's almost like some fans here are penalizing the Wings for their non top 5 draft picks working out better than expected and therefore the team isn't as bad as they would like it to be because of that. But if the Larkin, Chowloski etc picks all sucked they would be killing the management for being terrible drafters too.....so there's really not a way for them to win in the eyes of these people.

The reason Buffalo, Edmonton, Arizona, etc have accumulated so many top draft picks (and therefore so many shots at "elite players") is because they all were/are terrible at drafting outside of their super high draft picks. Unfortunately for the tanking crowd, the Wings haven't been that way lately.

the thing is without getting a couple top picks guys like Larkin and Cholowski developing well actually does more harm than good

I mean what's the best case scenario there? in a few years ending up as a Minnesota type for a decade or so that usually makes the Playoffs but never actually competes for anything and then eventually bottoming out from there in the distant future? that just sounds like a huge waste of time to me

i'd much rather bottom out now for however long it takes than continue along the path i'm worried the team is on and maybe compete for something in two decades if it goes well next time around