William Nylander

[authentic]

This board takes for granted how good Matthews is defensively really. One of the best defensive forwards among top scorers anyone here will ever see in their life.

 

[ITM]

Regardless of who has more goals watching these two on a shift to shift basis in the playoffs it’s clear who’s been better. People bring up the last 5 years well that’s Matthews easy as he’s become a premier two-way center. Willy is great with the puck on his stick but he’s just plain bad defensively most nights.

Good to see his comment boosted your spirits.

Matthews seemed more of a premier two-way center earlier in his career. He was supposed to progress. He hasn’t. Perhaps he reemerges this round.

But what Nylander is supposed to do, he does, and in those moments when it’s needed. He may disappear at moments in the game, but he shows up in the series when it matters.

That’s an either/or proposition with Matthews that he has failed to correct. He doesn’t lead like Sittler. Or like Gilmour. And he doesn’t absorb and engage and lead the way Sundin did.

Nylander gains the zone better than anyone on the club, and from the regular season into the playoffs that’s plain to see. It cuts away at the notion that he’s simply a perimeter player or lacks toughness and courage. He is absolutely selective, but he selects to engage more than the other two.

If Matthews’ were paid like a Danault or a Bergeron, I could understand the reflex to point out a part of his game that is good or great when another part of his game is criticized. But when that one part of his game is championed on the basis of his regular season play vs a disjunct reality in his playoffs production, we’re running into bad faith representation.

Auston Matthews is supposed to lead by goals points and defensive acumen. He’s the “unicorn” right? His value is defined on that singular, exceptional whole, not by preferred composition that annually excuses his inability to define playoffs series success.

So it’s not “regardless” of who has more goals and points, it’s because of production at times of need that I infer, if we’re getting nothing - NOTHING - by way of advancement from production, and NOTHING by way of imposed will where Matthews is shutting down production from the opposite side. It’s reasonable to conclude, that his value is misplaced now as advised by a five year trend in which the reasonable expectation through 14 opportunities sees him and Matthews alone, affect our better outcome at least once if not half the time. Said otherwise, improve the team’s outcome during the period of his career where he matures and ideally improves.

Think of our positions this way; You and your friend are free to prefer that production, role and salary don’t matter, but meanwhile, sheepish and inconsistent Nylander is shouldering his load and leading our club in playoffs scoring, and telling the other so-called better players to “Shut the f@#? up and shoot the f-n puck!”.

Now…Can anyone remember a Maple Leaf who told Sittler, Clark, Gilmour or Sundin anything resembling that? And you know why that is? Because there was zero question about their leadership on the ice. Typically, it’s captains who speak like that because they can because their leadership is obvious.

Hoping for a return to form for Matthews and Marner.

Thankful that Nylander has quietly done the job he’s been paid to do.

 

[authentic]

Good to see his comment boosted your spirits.

Matthews seemed more of a premier two-way center earlier in his career. He was supposed to progress. He hasn’t. Perhaps he reemerges this round.

But what Nylander is supposed to do, he does, and in those moments when it’s needed. He may disappear at moments in the game, but he shows up in the series when it matters.

That’s an either/or proposition with Matthews that he has failed to correct. He doesn’t lead like Sittler. Or like Gilmour. And he doesn’t absorb and engage and lead the way Sundin did.

Nylander gains the zone better than anyone on the club, and from the regular season into the playoffs that’s plain to see. It cuts away at the notion that he’s simply a perimeter player or lacks toughness and courage. He is absolutely selective, but he selects to engage more than the other two.

If Matthews’ were paid like a Danault or a Bergeron, I could understand the reflex to point out a part of his game that is good or great when another part of his game is criticized. But when that one part of his game is championed on the basis of his regular season play vs a disjunct reality in his playoffs production, we’re running into bad faith representation.

Auston Matthews is supposed to lead by goals points and defensive acumen. He’s the “unicorn” right? His value is defined on that singular, exceptional whole, not by preferred composition that annually excuses his inability to define playoffs series success.

So it’s not “regardless” of who has more goals and points, it’s because of production at times of need that I infer, if we’re getting nothing - NOTHING - by way of advancement from production, and NOTHING by way of imposed will where Matthews is shutting down production from the opposite side. It’s reasonable to conclude, that his value is misplaced now as advised by a five year trend in which the reasonable expectation through 14 opportunities sees him and Matthews alone, affect our better outcome at least once if not half the time. Said otherwise, improve the team’s outcome during the period of his career where he matures and ideally improves.

Think of our positions this way; You and your friend are free to prefer that production, role and salary don’t matter, but meanwhile, sheepish and inconsistent Nylander is shouldering his load and leading our club in playoffs scoring, and telling the other so-called better players to “Shut the f@#? up and shoot the f-n puck!”.

Now…Can anyone remember a Maple Leaf who told Sittler, Clark, Gilmour or Sundin anything resembling that? And you know why that is? Because there was zero question about their leadership on the ice. Typically, it’s captains who speak like that because they can because their leadership is obvious.

Hoping for a return to form for Matthews and Marner.

Thankful that Nylander has quietly done the job he’s been paid to do.

You lost me after the bolded…

 

[ITM]

You lost me after the bolded…

Oh if I were you, I wouldn’t address my post anymore than I would consider the five year scoring comparison either.

Does absolutely nothing for your preferences.

 

[ITM]

Exactly, no one in a million years expected that, especially for a two-way center it’s unheard of

As if to point your flawed filter:

Your quote above responds to Stephen’s reply which includes this quote:

“As the years go by, I don't think Matthews has always been consistently that solid as that as a center…”

Reread that a couple of times. It’ll sink in.

 

[authentic]

As if to point your flawed filter:

Your quote above responds to Stephen’s reply which includes this quote:

“As the years go by, I don't think Matthews has always been consistently that solid as that as a center…”

Reread that a couple of times. It’ll sink in.

 

[ULF_55]

Regardless of who has more goals watching these two on a shift to shift basis in the playoffs it’s clear who’s been better. People bring up the last 5 years well that’s Matthews easy as he’s become a premier two-way center. Willy is great with the puck on his stick but he’s just plain bad defensively most nights.

Nylander 2nd. in Goals this year. So surprising but being healthy is part of the game.

He averages about 1 game missed per year?

Too bad he doesn't get to play with a Selke candidate, would improve his defensive game, just by having someone there to cover up mistakes, and giveaways.

 

[IronHookem]

This board takes for granted how good Matthews is defensively really. One of the best defensive forwards among top scorers anyone here will ever see in their life.

What stands out to me is that he blocks a ton of shots as a forward and is elite as lifting the opponents stick and stripping them of the puck when they least expect it. Some people seem to have this preconceived notion that if you are an offensive juggernaut that racks up goal/points, it is impossible to be responsible defensively at a selke caliber level.

 

[ITM]

Ok, well to simplify further, your argument that Matthews’ value in absence of scoring is as an impact two-way center. I’ve pointed out the obvious flaws. And then when a member - widely regarded as informed and authoritative notes Matthews as being an inconsistent center OVER TIME, lol (compressing my own assessment) your inference is to affirm your argument…which is the opposite, lol.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I do think the "always having the #1 against him" scenario needs to be questioned.

At home the coach determines who he goes out against.
On icings, by the other team, the coach determines who he goes out against.

I agree when the opposition coach has the option he'll match but enough with the "always" fantasy defense.

You have to understand context.

When Matty's line is against the Tkachuk line, the Tkachuk line is the #1 shutdown.

When Matty's line is against the Pinto line, the Pinto line is the #1 shutdown.

I'm sure when Ottawa's fourth line iced the puck and Berube sent out Matty for the faceoff, he was still facing the #1 shutdown line.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Fair enough…

For charity’s sake, no one would expect you to know that I’ve typically qualified my evaluation over the last five years.

So before continuing in the response, a couple of questions - now remember, my assessment takes the playoffs and salaries into consideration:

(1) How many playoffs goals/points does Matthews have in the last five years?
(2) How many playoffs goals/ points does Nylander have in the last five years?

Thanks in advance for the specific answers to the specific two questions asked above.

Last 5 playoffs:

Matthews: 36 games,13 goals, 36 points.
Nylander: 35 games, 18 goals, 37 points.

Clearly Matthews is the better goal scorer, especially considering he is stuck playing top minutes on the top line, and saddled with the two best wingers.

 

[authentic]

Ok, well to simplify further, your argument that Matthews’ value in absence of scoring is as an impact two-way center. I’ve pointed out the obvious flaws. And then when a member - widely regarded as informed and authoritative notes Matthews as being an inconsistent center OVER TIME, lol (compressing my own assessment) your inference is to affirm your argument…which is the opposite, lol.

Cringe

 

[ruaware41]

That was an incredible stretch of goal scoring from Auston Matthews and hopefully we haven't seen the last of it. I think that run of goal scoring was completely unexpected though.

On draft day he was billed as an Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Toews plus type center who could do everything everything for a franchise, but not match the flash of a McDavid or Eichel. As the years go by, I don't think Matthews has always been consistently that solid as that as a center, but kind of overwhelmingly good as a sniper with a chameleon-like change in playstyle. You're never sure what you'll get.

Well put

 

[authentic]

What stands out to me is that he blocks a ton of shots as a forward and is elite as lifting the opponents stick and stripping them of the puck when they least expect it. Some people seem to have this preconceived notion that if you are an offensive juggernaut that racks up goal/points, it is impossible to be responsible defensively at a selke caliber level.

He’s inconsistent though (in large part due to these seemingly reoccurring wrist issues, which still doesn’t stop him from being a stellar two-way center), so apparently that makes him not good defensively, especially in comparison to Nylander

 

[Stephen]

He’s inconsistent though (in large part due to these seemingly reoccurring wrist issues, which still doesn’t stop him from being a stellar two-way center), so apparently that makes him not good defensively, especially in comparison to Nylander

Matthews is a five tool player, but on the whole you don’t get all five tools on any given night. I would characterize his style as having chameleon-like tendency. He can play the game any way you want but that also means he’s not the same predictable way any night.

So sometimes he’s on his way to a Rocket win and just an overwhelming goal scorer. Sometimes he’s a physical force and contributing heavy power game and just a force carrying the puck up the ice all night. Sometimes he’s approaching a Selke level of defense and a shot block machine. Sometimes he’s a passive scoring winger deferring to Marner. These versions of him aren’t always integrated into one consistent play style. And it’s not a health issue. So for me that’s a source of frustration. Sometimes you think you’re going to get this but you get that.

Don’t think anyone could say with confidence what it’ll look like vs Florida.

 

[authentic]

Matthews is a five tool player, but on the whole you don’t get all five tools on any given night. I would characterize his style as having chameleon-like tendency. He can play the game any way you want but that also means he’s not the same predictable way any night.

So sometimes he’s on his way to a Rocket win and just an overwhelming goal scorer. Sometimes he’s a physical force and contributing heavy power game and just a force carrying the puck up the ice all night. Sometimes he’s approaching a Selke level of defense and a shot block machine. Sometimes he’s a passive scoring winger deferring to Marner. These versions of him aren’t always integrated into one consistent play style. And it’s not a health issue. So for me that’s a source of frustration. Sometimes you think you’re going to get this but you get that.

Don’t think anyone could say with confidence what it’ll look like vs Florida.

I’ve been critical of him for these very reasons, just not sure the relevance as it pertains to Matthews vs. Nylander when Nylander is a fairly inconsistent player himself (all our core 4 are really). But a mediocre night defensively from Matthews is pretty much Nylander on a good day, except when Nylander disappears you’re not getting much of anything.

 

[sunstersun]

People are vastly overstating how bad he is defensively.

No he's not good, but he's improved and yeah the brain dead plays are still there, but overall he's closer to neutral defensively now.

Berube doesn't give Nylander the series clinching minutes if he doesn't trust him defensively.

 

[Stephen]

I’ve been critical of him for these very reasons, just not sure the relevance as it pertains to Matthews vs. Nylander when Nylander is a fairly inconsistent player himself (all our core 4 are really). But a mediocre night defensively from Matthews is pretty much Nylander on a good day, except when Nylander disappears you’re not getting much of anything.

I didn’t compare them, I’m sure I can cook up what I like and don’t like about Nylander later though.

 

[LeafEgo]

People are vastly overstating how bad he is defensively.

No he's not good, but he's improved and yeah the brain dead plays are still there, but overall he's closer to neutral defensively now.

Berube doesn't give Nylander the series clinching minutes if he doesn't trust him defensively.

He doesn't include a full defence package into his program, but when it comes to turnovers, one on one stick battles, and swooping in to disrupt plays with speed (when he does it) he's as good as it gets.

As far as wingers who score over 40 goals a year go, there's not much to omplain about. Somebody has to score our goals.

 

[GoonieFace]

People are vastly overstating how bad he is defensively.

No he's not good, but he's improved and yeah the brain dead plays are still there, but overall he's closer to neutral defensively now.

Berube doesn't give Nylander the series clinching minutes if he doesn't trust him defensively.

He also plays with slow, not good defensive players as well, which doesn’t help his case. People equate not standing at the blue line and bailing on the offensive zone early as being bad defensively.

 

[arso40]

People are vastly overstating how bad he is defensively.

No he's not good, but he's improved and yeah the brain dead plays are still there, but overall he's closer to neutral defensively now.

Berube doesn't give Nylander the series clinching minutes if he doesn't trust him defensively.

It’s actually ridiculous tbh but as they were ……….

 

[ULF_55]

Draft - 2014

1st. 6 years:

Past 5 years:

Career:

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Good to see his comment boosted your spirits.

Matthews seemed more of a premier two-way center earlier in his career. He was supposed to progress. He hasn’t. Perhaps he reemerges this round.

But what Nylander is supposed to do, he does, and in those moments when it’s needed. He may disappear at moments in the game, but he shows up in the series when it matters.

That’s an either/or proposition with Matthews that he has failed to correct. He doesn’t lead like Sittler. Or like Gilmour. And he doesn’t absorb and engage and lead the way Sundin did.

Nylander gains the zone better than anyone on the club, and from the regular season into the playoffs that’s plain to see. It cuts away at the notion that he’s simply a perimeter player or lacks toughness and courage. He is absolutely selective, but he selects to engage more than the other two.

If Matthews’ were paid like a Danault or a Bergeron, I could understand the reflex to point out a part of his game that is good or great when another part of his game is criticized. But when that one part of his game is championed on the basis of his regular season play vs a disjunct reality in his playoffs production, we’re running into bad faith representation.

Auston Matthews is supposed to lead by goals points and defensive acumen. He’s the “unicorn” right? His value is defined on that singular, exceptional whole, not by preferred composition that annually excuses his inability to define playoffs series success.

So it’s not “regardless” of who has more goals and points, it’s because of production at times of need that I infer, if we’re getting nothing - NOTHING - by way of advancement from production, and NOTHING by way of imposed will where Matthews is shutting down production from the opposite side. It’s reasonable to conclude, that his value is misplaced now as advised by a five year trend in which the reasonable expectation through 14 opportunities sees him and Matthews alone, affect our better outcome at least once if not half the time. Said otherwise, improve the team’s outcome during the period of his career where he matures and ideally improves.

Think of our positions this way; You and your friend are free to prefer that production, role and salary don’t matter, but meanwhile, sheepish and inconsistent Nylander is shouldering his load and leading our club in playoffs scoring, and telling the other so-called better players to “Shut the f@#? up and shoot the f-n puck!”.

Now…Can anyone remember a Maple Leaf who told Sittler, Clark, Gilmour or Sundin anything resembling that? And you know why that is? Because there was zero question about their leadership on the ice. Typically, it’s captains who speak like that because they can because their leadership is obvious.

Hoping for a return to form for Matthews and Marner.

Thankful that Nylander has quietly done the job he’s been paid to do.

We are less than a year from Matthews being nominated for the Selke. So a year ago he was viewed as one of the best defensive forwards and now he isn't close?

 

[ACC1224]

We are less than a year from Matthews being nominated for the Selke. So a year ago he was viewed as one of the best defensive forwards and now he isn't close?

Apparently Marner isn’t any longer either. They were celebrating it over in the Marner thread.

 

[authentic]

People are vastly overstating how bad he is defensively.

No he's not good, but he's improved and yeah the brain dead plays are still there, but overall he's closer to neutral defensively now.

Berube doesn't give Nylander the series clinching minutes if he doesn't trust him defensively.

Actually you’re right. He has improved and I’m thankful for that.