Player Discussion William Nylander

[ACC1224]

Your points were not relevant and pretending Kessel had elite linemates when his lack of help was a frequent discussion point here during his tenure is just pure revisionist history.

Im sure you thought bozak sucked like everyone else. Bozak's reputation didnt take a turn until 2017 when he moved to 3C

Nylander has not had worse linemates and overall team support than kessel.

He isnt as capable of a player, his career production only confirms that so far.

Domi and Tavares + Nylander should be as good/better line than JVR - Bozak - Kessel was.

The fact that people here think it is not means all 3 of those guys are failing their jobs to get that line to work with Nylander being the highest AAV on that line

With Nylander it's always been his will more than his skill. He gets the easier matchups most(every?) nights, needs to take advantage of that more often.

All in all, overpaid for sure but still brings a lot of value.

 

[thewave]

With Nylander it's always been his will more than his skill. He gets the easier matchups most(every?) nights, needs to take advantage of that more often.

All in all, overpaid for sure but still brings a lot of value.

He doesn't give close to enough value at his cap. He needs to successfully transition into an effective C at 11.5m cap. We need a C for that money not another winger.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Your points were not relevant

Sure they were.

and pretending Kessel had elite linemates when his lack of help was a frequent discussion point here during his tenure is just pure revisionist history.

I never said Kessel had elite linemates, you saying this is a great example of what revisionist history is (revising my posts).

Im sure you thought bozak sucked like everyone else. Bozak's reputation didnt take a turn until 2017 when he moved to 3C

Wrong again.

Nylander has not had worse linemates and overall team support than kessel.

This is off topic (the use of the word "worse"). I was talking about Bozak and JVR being decent linemates when it comes to putting up points, that's all. Kessel/Bozak/JVR also played together for a very long time, Nylander gets new linemates every few minutes. I'll let you figure out for yourself why this is relevant to the discussion.

He isnt as capable of a player, his career production only confirms that so far.

Sure he is.

Domi and Tavares + Nylander should be as good/better line than JVR - Bozak - Kessel was.

Maybe, maybe not. But again, not the point.

The fact that people here think it is not means all 3 of those guys are failing their jobs to get that line to work with Nylander being the highest AAV on that line

What "people here think" - when you generalize to this extreme you're so far off track that you need to turn around and figure out where it is you're trying to go. Good luck!

 

[IPS]

Your points were not relevant and pretending Kessel had elite linemates when his lack of help was a frequent discussion point here during his tenure is just pure revisionist history.

Im sure you thought bozak sucked like everyone else. Bozak's reputation didnt take a turn until 2017 when he moved to 3C

Nylander has not had worse linemates and overall team support than kessel.

He isnt as capable of a player, his career production only confirms that so far.

Domi and Tavares + Nylander should be as good/better line than JVR - Bozak - Kessel was.

The fact that people here think it is not means all 3 of those guys are failing their jobs to get that line to work with Nylander being the highest AAV on that line

Yeah but this debate is a little more nuanced than it appears at surface level.

Kessel's production didn't actually improve immediately upon being traded to Pittsburgh and having Crosby and Malkin to play with. He really only had 1 year that exceeded his production in Toronto.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that all if you put Nylander in a hypothetical role where he as all of the offense flowing through him and practically him alone much like Kessel did that you would see far higher numbers than what he's putting up this year.

But I'm not saying this as some excuse or deflection of his play this year, he could be doing much better.

 

[ULF_55]

Not the % points difference but Matthews brings a whole bunch more than Pasta does in the rest of the game.

So even if the points were the same, Matthews is the better player.

I still believe the Leafs have painted themselves into a mess with the contracts they have given out, and it seems like they will continue to double down on it.

I especially liked when Matthews dropped the gloves with Tkachuk.

Nylander has to do that with Marchand.

 

[ULF_55]

With Nylander it's always been his will more than his skill. He gets the easier matchups most(every?) nights, needs to take advantage of that more often.

All in all, overpaid for sure but still brings a lot of value.

This easier match-ups argument I find suspect.

Leafs are the home team half the games they play, and know who is on the ice.

On an icing the offending team does not get to make a change, so whichever line caused the icing faces whoever the opposition coach puts out.

This is all coaching, and the coach determines who they put out, and frequently we here the coach put out the top line against the lower lines.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This easier match-ups argument I find suspect.

Leafs are the home team half the games they play, and know who is on the ice.

On an icing the offending team does not get to make a change, so whichever line caused the icing faces whoever the opposition coach puts out.

This is all coaching, and the coach determines who they put out, and frequently we here the coach put out the top line against the lower lines.

It's a really dumb argument IMO. I keep seeing it here, mostly seems to be coming from the Marner worship club who needs to discredit Nylander as much as they can.

 

[ACC1224]

This easier match-ups argument I find suspect.

Leafs are the home team half the games they play, and know who is on the ice.

On an icing the offending team does not get to make a change, so whichever line caused the icing faces whoever the opposition coach puts out.

This is all coaching, and the coach determines who they put out, and frequently we here the coach put out the top line against the lower lines.

Yes on the few icings a night, like every team they put out the top line, often Nylander joins them.
Typically Matthews and Marner get the top lines because they are also the top defensive players.

 

[hamzarocks]

I offer factual evidence refuting your post and your response is an ad hominem attack, and then claim I don't "argue in good faith"?

You didnt offer factual evidence

You inferred nylander is a 2nd liner when he plays ~20 mins a game last year and this season

Around what Kessle played as well.

You tried to pretend nylander doesnt get massive offensive opportunities and has failed to produce for nearly 100 games now

 

[ACC1224]

Looks like Willie and his dogs were having fun.

Wonder will the fans add Nylander to the Marner complaint with the Humane Society or will they file a seperate one and divide the outrage?

 

[hamzarocks]

Sure they were.

I never said Kessel had elite linemates, you saying this is a great example of what revisionist history is (revising my posts).

Wrong again.

This is off topic (the use of the word "worse"). I was talking about Bozak and JVR being decent linemates when it comes to putting up points, that's all. Kessel/Bozak/JVR also played together for a very long time, Nylander gets new linemates every few minutes. I'll let you figure out for yourself why this is relevant to the discussion.

Sure he is.

Maybe, maybe not. But again, not the point.

What "people here think" - when you generalize to this extreme you're so far off track that you need to turn around and figure out where it is you're trying to go. Good luck!

Nylander has been consistently playing with Tavares since 2019-2020.

That is a better linemate than JVR or Bozak.

Nylander has to drive the offense now but he can't.

Despite playing with a near ppg tavares (outside of last year where tavares did suck)

He gets almost 20 mins a game, tons of PP time and a better linemate and player than Kessel had in his leafs tenure as his 2C

Few people liked the JVR ahd Bozak duo with Kessel b/c he was being said to be held back due to bozak being a 3C played up in a higher role which hurt kessels offense.

The point is simple:

Nylander is overpaid for 93 consequtive games now. ~PPG production at 11.5M while getting ~20 mins a game and offensive opportunities is not enough

Fans need to blame nylander first before blaming the coach, his linemates or marner

 

[ACC1224]

Nylander has been consistently playing with Tavares since 2019-2020.

That is a better linemate than JVR or Bozak.

Nylander has to drive the offense now but he can't.

Despite playing with a near ppg tavares (outside of last year where tavares did suck)

He gets almost 20 mins a game, tons of PP time and a better linemate and player than Kessel had in his leafs tenure as his 2C

Few people liked the JVR ahd Bozak duo with Kessel b/c he was being said to be held back due to bozak being a 3C played up in a higher role which hurt kessels offense.

The point is simple:

Nylander is overpaid for 93 consequtive games now. ~PPG production at 11.5M while getting ~20 mins a game and offensive opportunities is not enough

Fans need to blame nylander first before blaming the coach, his linemates or marner

Let not get crazy here, it's always Marners fault.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Nylander is overpaid for 93 consequtive games now. ~PPG production at 11.5M while getting ~20 mins a game and offensive opportunities is not enough

I think we've reached agreement on Kessel - agree to disagree.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean by the bolded?

 

[hamzarocks]

I think we've reached agreement on Kessel - agree to disagree.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean by the bolded?

Since signing the contract he has 91 pts in 93 games for the leafs

That type of production cant be worth 11.5M

If it is then tavares is worth 11M

Matthews is worth 13.25M

And guys across the league who are producing like elite players making 9-14M are worth 4-5M more.

If a ~ppg winger is fair value for 11.5M

Then Knies at 50/55 can demand 8M and we cant say thats that bad.

The leafs internal cap structure is messed up based on the output we are getting from our core guys (besides marner for just this year) and it will only get worse unless somethinf changes

 

[ULF_55]

The point is simple:

Nylander is overpaid for 93 consequtive games now. ~PPG production at 11.5M while getting ~20 mins a game and offensive opportunities is not enough

You do know he had 98 points for $7mm? Right?
This is the first year of his double digit contract.

Team mates last year:
101 points for $10.9mm (Pace not actual)
107 points for $11.6mm

 

[hamzarocks]

You do know he had 98 points for $7mm? Right?
This is the first year of his double digit contract.

Team mates last year:
101 points for $10.9mm (Pace not actual)
107 points for $11.6mm

He had 57 in 39 at signing

Then 41 in 43 after signing

He started playing back at his career sub ppg level as soon as he signed his new deal.

He has kept up that level of play in the first 50 games of his new 11.5M deal

If Nylander was giving 100-110 pt production I wouldn't be complaining about him at 11.5M AAV

 

[Gary Nylund]

Since signing the contract he has 91 pts in 93 games for the leafs

That type of production cant be worth 11.5M

If it is then tavares is worth 11M

Matthews is worth 13.25M

And guys across the league who are producing like elite players making 9-14M are worth 4-5M more.

If a ~ppg winger is fair value for 11.5M

Then Knies at 50/55 can demand 8M and we cant say thats that bad.

The leafs internal cap structure is messed up based on the output we are getting from our core guys (besides marner for just this year) and it will only get worse unless somethinf changes

Nylander didn't start making 11.5M until this season. You don't think he was worth 7 million last season?

 

[ToneDog]

Nylander didn't start making 11.5M until this season. You don't think he was worth 7 million last season?

He was worth $11.5m for the first 39 games. He's worth $7m since.

I jest but you know what I am insinuating.

 

[ULF_55]

He had 57 in 39 at signing

Then 41 in 43 after signing

He started playing back at his career sub ppg level as soon as he signed his new deal.

He has kept up that level of play in the first 50 games of his new 11.5M deal

If Nylander was giving 100-110 pt production I wouldn't be complaining about him at 11.5M AAV

His current contract kicked in this season, so last season is irrelevant.

I'd like to see him produce more, but I'd like to see the Leafs improve the team around him, and Matthews and marner and Tavares.

The drop off is dramatic.

McMann started the season coming off injury.
Knies can't be on 1st. and 2nd. line.
Paccioretty is more or less what we should have expected, mostly done.

These are top 6 forwards they throw out there when healthy.

Only 2 players haven't taken games off.
Tavares does not have chemistry with Nylander.

Matthews gets hurt, Tavares and marner get together.
Domi? All 3 goals really help produce assists for linemates.

Leafs need a speedy center, with some skill.

How many of Nylander's goals are solo missions?

It isn't like he's playing with players who are offensively skilled and Selke candidates.

 

[hamzarocks]

Nylander didn't start making 11.5M until this season. You don't think he was worth 7 million last season?

As a whole he was worth 10.5M last year or closer to 11M

Its the splits pre and post contract which make him a big risk with his current 1st year of his deal also being same/similar to his 43 games post signing last year.

His contract and post contract play makes me nervous we see similar from marner if we give him 13-14M

It is risky signing these guys to tgese type of deals when they typically are not 110-120 pt players (marner's current pace and Nylander pace at time of signing last year)

 

[Gary Nylund]

As a whole he was worth 10.5M last year or closer to 11M

Its the splits pre and post contract which make him a big risk with his current 1st year of his deal also being same/similar to his 43 games post signing last year.

His contract and post contract play makes me nervous we see similar from marner if we give him 13-14M

It is risky signing these guys to tgese type of deals when they typically are not 110-120 pt players (marner's current pace and Nylander pace at time of signing last year)

Wow, that's pretty good for a guy with a 7m cap hit. Weird that you think he's now overpaid by 3-4 million, agree to disagree.

 

[ULF_55]

As a whole he was worth 10.5M last year or closer to 11M

Its the splits pre and post contract which make him a big risk with his current 1st year of his deal also being same/similar to his 43 games post signing last year.

His contract and post contract play makes me nervous we see similar from marner if we give him 13-14M

It is risky signing these guys to tgese type of deals when they typically are not 110-120 pt players (marner's current pace and Nylander pace at time of signing last year)

My speculation.

The overpay is:

1. backpay
2. bonus for locking in for 8 years

...
Matthews is shorter so he can increase his compensation in 4 years.
marner will likely follow suit, and hope for another increase to not fall behind Matthews.
...

I don't see any success coming from these players, without Treliving landing another top 6 forward.

 

[ToneDog]

As a whole he was worth 10.5M last year or closer to 11M

Its the splits pre and post contract which make him a big risk with his current 1st year of his deal also being same/similar to his 43 games post signing last year.

His contract and post contract play makes me nervous we see similar from marner if we give him 13-14M

It is risky signing these guys to tgese type of deals when they typically are not 110-120 pt players (marner's current pace and Nylander pace at time of signing last year)

Honestly I'd rather blow it up rather than pay this loser $13-$14m. He's not morphing into a Mark Messier or Nathan MacKinnon in the playoffs. He is what he is and he will prove it in the playoffs once again.

 

[ZEBROA]

If u play on the second line are you

A: A second line player
B: A first line player?

Or if it doesent matter, put Matthews with Tavares on the second line and knies Marner Nylander on the first...

 

[notDatsyuk]

You didnt offer factual evidence

You inferred nylander is a 2nd liner when he plays ~20 mins a game last year and this season

Around what Kessle played as well.

You tried to pretend nylander doesnt get massive offensive opportunities and has failed to produce for nearly 100 games now

Ignoring facts doesn't make them false. He plays on the second line, with second (at best) liners a lot of the time.

If you really believe that being fifth in goals and eighth in points among all wingers over the last 3+ seasons is failing, then I don't know what to say.