Player Discussion William Nylander

[ULF_55]

You might want to check the level of talent Pasta has played with for 3 years and how badly he has dominated his teammates in scoring

If nylander was able to put 110 pt seasons he would he isnt capable of being that type of player

Again every nylander fan is ignoring his suckage is beyond this season. 91 pts in 93 games while playing for the leafs in a premium offensive role is no where good enough for his money.

He scammed us, that contract was going to be tough to live up to and he fell off right after signing it with 41 pts in final 43 games last year.

There is no special hidden talent here. Nylander has been a ppg player at best for his career outside of last year.

He isnt a guy who should be paid like a franchise winger

Matthews scammed the Leafs along the same lines, unless you think .03 P/GP is worth $2mm?

Leafs overpay.

 

[hamzarocks]

Matthews scammed the Leafs along the same lines, unless you think .03 P/GP is worth $2mm?


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Leafs overpay.

Ofcourse matthews scammed the leafs.

Hes not worth 13.25M and isnt consistent enough to be worth that type of money.

He is just givem a pass by people on here due to the everlasting injuries which come up whenever hes playing bad or sucking in the playoffs.

Nylander being overpaid and not as good as leaf fans think is not an isolated incident.

None of the core 5 guys are as good as people here think and none if them should be making as much as they do if the goal is to win a cup in Toronto.

50M to any teams core 5 guys would make contending for a cup tough

50M for our Core 5 guys makes it impossible as these guys just cant produce in the playoffs at the level needed of a ~10M player (on avg(

 

[thewave]

Ofcourse matthews scammed the leafs.

Hes not worth 13.25M and isnt consistent enough to be worth that type of money.

He is just givem a pass by people on here due to the everlasting injuries which come up whenever hes playing bad or sucking in the playoffs.

Nylander being overpaid and not as good as leaf fans think is not an isolated incident.

None of the core 5 guys are as good as people here think and none if them should be making as much as they do if the goal is to win a cup in Toronto.

50M to any teams core 5 guys would make contending for a cup tough

50M for our Core 5 guys makes it impossible as these guys just cant produce in the playoffs at the level needed of a ~10M player (on avg(

He is a pretty consistent Rocket winner for crying out loud. You make it sound like anybody can just go get actual goals not just points. Marner is just a little bit less than Matthews you said. That is like some otherworldly kookoo banana stuff. I mean come on give us all a break from ridiculous narrative building block posts.

Multiple rocket winners are getting paid. 69 goal scorers are getting paid max. They are getting paid period.

 

[hamzarocks]

He is a pretty consistent Rocket winner for crying out loud. You make it sound like anybody can just go get actual goals not just points. Marner is just a little bit less than Matthews you said. That is like some otherworldly kookoo banana stuff. I mean come on give us all a break from ridiculous narrative building block posts.

Multiple rocket winners are getting paid. 69 goal scorers are getting paid max. They are getting paid period.

Matthews can score goals in the reg season all he wants

Look at his hart voting, ross finishes, lindsay finishes

He has 3 years of note out of 9.

His goal scoring also dies in the playoffs while more play making superstars like Mack, Kuch, Drai continue to torch the league even in playoffs.

If you are only a one-way threat (goals or only assists) your a limited offensive player that will be super hard to build around and win.

Matthews has a great narrative around him and good PR team, but he's failed to deliver at every big/key moment for us just like Marner/Nylander/Tavares.

 

[thewave]

Matthews can score goals in the reg season all he wants

Look at his hart voting, ross finishes, lindsay finishes

He has 3 years of note out of 9.

His goal scoring also dies in the playoffs while more play making superstars like Mack, Kuch, Drai continue to torch the league even in playoffs.

If you are only a one-way threat (goals or only assists) your a limited offensive player that will be super hard to build around and win.

Matthews has a great narrative around him and good PR team, but he's failed to deliver at every big/key moment for us just like Marner/Nylander/Tavares.

Some of us are putting together compelling arguments that Marner playing scared in the playoffs is hampering both players.

 

[ULF_55]

Matthews can score goals in the reg season all he wants

Look at his hart voting, ross finishes, lindsay finishes

He has 3 years of note out of 9.

His goal scoring also dies in the playoffs while more play making superstars like Mack, Kuch, Drai continue to torch the league even in playoffs.

If you are only a one-way threat (goals or only assists) your a limited offensive player that will be super hard to build around and win.

Matthews has a great narrative around him and good PR team, but he's failed to deliver at every big/key moment for us just like Marner/Nylander/Tavares.

Last 5 playoffs
Nylander has scored 17 goals in 34 games
Matthews has scored 13 goals in 35 games

Here are last 4.

 

[Jojalu]

It sucks Draisaitl can be making 14M (next year still at 8.5M this year) and be a regular 2nd to 5th best player in the world discussion with some year of being best player in the world discussion AND dominate the playoffs at historcal levels

Same for Mack, Mcdavid, Kuch, Rantanen, Makar etc

Our guys getting a pass for being ppg in regular season just shows how badly we overestimated the talent level of this core group and overpaid.

Nylander will neeed to be a 90-100 pt playoff player (30 in 24 type run) to make up for this regular season.

Very hard to expect that type of run from him when hes never been that good in the playoffs and his best series werent enough for us to win usually in the playoffs.


Nylander has played with Tavares whose been around ppg this year in a bounce back season

Hes played games with matthews, domi, knies, McMann etc

being 3rd in the NHL doesnt make you worth 11.5M

Marner must be worth 14M since he is 5th in the league in points by this logic (he isnt for me and I wouldnt want him back based off a contract year season(

If Nylander, or anyone of them is just PPG in the playoffs but they win 16 games then I could care less.

The chances of that are not great and one of them will most likely need to get really hot.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ehlers isn’t close to William

And how about those Bills choked away another year. Who knew? lol!

I wouldn't call it a choke job, they played a very good game and lost a close one on the road to a team that could go down in history as one of the best ever. But whatever, I really thought they were going to win this time so not happy at all today. But hey, at the beginning of the season nobody thought they had much of a chance of winning the Super Bowl so it was still a pretty good year for them despite how it ended.

So 4M overpaid is likely too much but 2-3M overpayment is aligned with how Tavares was viewed when he was around ppg for a 4 year stretch after his first year.

This is year 1 of the deal, if he plays this poorly from the start this deal will be terrible by Year 3 or 4 at latest

You're ignoring a very important point - if the cap goes up as much as people seem to think, Willie's deal could look like quite the bargain a few years from now. That's the thing with 8 year contracts, the percentage of the cap they take up goes down every single year. Covid screwed us so we didn't see that effect with our stars last time around but that's in the past now.

Here is my take.

As the regular season to this fan base means verty little, wouldn't we have to see what happens in the playoffs before we decide who is overpaid or not.

Win the Cup. No one was overpaid.

Lose anytime before= debate away on how many of them are overpaid.

But Nylander at 13.1 %
Matthews at 15% means Marner will probably get 14%.

Now back to 42% of the cap in 3 players. They have to win to justify doing this again.

I wouldn't quite go that far - win or lose there will still be different grades given to different players. That said, if we win the cup most people just won't care about individual grades. But I base most of a players grade on playoffs, maybe 80% or so so considering the playoffs haven't even started, I agree that it's too early to even think about grading players.

There is no special hidden talent here. Nylander has been a ppg player at best for his career outside of last year.

He isnt a guy who should be paid like a franchise winger

Kessel got 8M right? Without doing the math to adjust for cap, I figure Nylander isn't paid that much more than Kessel. I also think he is better than Kessel and while not a franchise player, Kessel was worth every penny in the playoffs for Pittsburgh, and Nylander has been the only one of our star players who's production hasn't dropped big time in the playoffs.

 

[thewave]

Maybe Berube can try him as center again, rather than Kampf/Holmberg/Minten/Dewar ...

It's actually very important that he can do that switch for the money he makes. He is giving us less than Martin Necas performance on the year for 11.5m. Necas makes like 6m and was had for an expiring player they had no intention of paying ransom to.

 

[Menzinger]

Nope 50 in 50 is around 7.5M to 8.5M

Look at Ehlers makes 6M plays 15.5 mins a game and is around a ppg

He will be coming in at 8-9M which is what Nylander should have been at if he were to be kept a leaf.

That signing was f***ed up from the summer of 2023

Ehlers will get less than Nylander because he's produced less, not just this year, but over the last several. He barely cracked 60 points over 82 games last season.and paced for less than 70 points 2 seasons ago. He's a lesser player

Elhers signed that current contract well over half a decade ago too, it's not really reflective over what a current PPG player earns.

Edit: elhers also signed that deal when he was a 60 something point RFA (when the cap was much lower too) it's not really relevant to this discussion regardless

 

[hamzarocks]

Ehlers will get less than Nylander because he's produced less, not just this year, but over the last several. He barely cracked 60 points over 82 games last season.and paced for less than 70 points 2 seasons ago. He's a lesser player

Elhers signed that current contract well over half a decade ago too, it's not really reflective over what a current PPG player earns.

Edit: elhers also signed that deal when he was a 60 something point RFA (when the cap was much lower too) it's not really relevant to this discussion regardless

Nylander has gotten more favorable usage compared to ehlers and has been more healthy leading to larger point totals the past few years.

As far as career production there isnt a massive gap and there shouldn't be a gap moving forward assuming Ehlers leaves WPG for a bigger role.

Sam Reinhart in Buffalo was held back and was behind Nylander as well.

Since then hes been the better palyer by a decent margin and makes less than 9M on a LT deal signed last offseason.

Kyle Connor is a big time player whose contract expires in a year. He should ve making 11.5-12M if he uses nylander as a comparable and a team offers him the same money.

We will see if nylander is just overpaid within the team or if upcoming comparable players will be getting paid similar AAVs.

 

[hamzarocks]

I wouldn't call it a choke job, they played a very good game and lost a close one on the road to a team that could go down in history as one of the best ever. But whatever, I really thought they were going to win this time so not happy at all today. But hey, at the beginning of the season nobody thought they had much of a chance of winning the Super Bowl so it was still a pretty good year for them despite how it ended.

You're ignoring a very important point - if the cap goes up as much as people seem to think, Willie's deal could look like quite the bargain a few years from now. That's the thing with 8 year contracts, the percentage of the cap they take up goes down every single year. Covid screwed us so we didn't see that effect with our stars last time around but that's in the past now.

I wouldn't quite go that far - win or lose there will still be different grades given to different players. That said, if we win the cup most people just won't care about individual grades. But I base most of a players grade on playoffs, maybe 80% or so so considering the playoffs haven't even started, I agree that it's too early to even think about grading players.


Kessel got 8M right? Without doing the math to adjust for cap, I figure Nylander isn't paid that much more than Kessel. I also think he is better than Kessel and while not a franchise player, Kessel was worth every penny in the playoffs for Pittsburgh, and Nylander has been the only one of our star players who's production hasn't dropped big time in the playoffs.

I just dont see Nylander as a comparable player to Kessel.

Kessel had 3 top 10 pt finishes from 2010 to 2015 for the leafs on a team with less talent that these versions of the leafs and in a harder league for offense.

Kessel was a marner comparable for offensive perspective. If he had played his prime with Matthews as his center would have been a 40G+ & 60A threat for us.

Nylander at 11.5M can't be simply seeing his production drop big time. He has to raise it if hes only ~ppg as a player in the reg season.

We wont win with a ~ppg winger making 11.5M on the team in the playoffs.

 

[GoonieFace]

Nylander has gotten more favorable usage compared to ehlers and has been more healthy leading to larger point totals the past few years.

As far as career production there isnt a massive gap and there shouldn't be a gap moving forward assuming Ehlers leaves WPG for a bigger role.

Sam Reinhart in Buffalo was held back and was behind Nylander as well.

Since then hes been the better palyer by a decent margin and makes less than 9M on a LT deal signed last offseason.

Kyle Connor is a big time player whose contract expires in a year. He should ve making 11.5-12M if he uses nylander as a comparable and a team offers him the same money.

We will see if nylander is just overpaid within the team or if upcoming comparable players will be getting paid similar AAVs.

So now Nylander being healthy and Ehlers being injured constantly is some sort of slight to Nylander’s point totals? That’s weird to even bring that up. Being physically able to play is kind of important.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I just dont see Nylander as a comparable player to Kessel.

Kessel had 3 top 10 pt finishes from 2010 to 2015 for the leafs on a team with less talent that these versions of the leafs and in a harder league for offense.

Kessel was a marner comparable for offensive perspective. If he had played his prime with Matthews as his center would have been a 40G+ & 60A threat for us.

Nylander at 11.5M can't be simply seeing his production drop big time. He has to raise it if hes only ~ppg as a player in the reg season.

We wont win with a ~ppg winger making 11.5M on the team in the playoffs.

Nylander's a little more than half way into the first season of an 8 year deal. For reference, Kessel's first year of his deal he had 61 points and was -34. IIRC he played on a line with Bozak and JVR, and while those guys were abysmal defensively (record setting bad even), it was a pretty good spot for putting up points. Nylander's never had the same linemates for an extended period of time, mostly he plays with random leftovers. Give him guys as good offensively as JVR and Bozak for an extended period of time and I'll bet you'd see substantially higher point totals.

You can crunch all the numbers you want but IMHO, your contention that he's 3-4 million overpaid is simply absurd. Bottom line, I'd suggest waiting at least another year or so before getting all worked up about his production.

When it comes to playoffs, Nylander's the last guy I'm worried about.

 

[ULF_55]

Nylander's a little more than half way into the first season of an 8 year deal. For reference, Kessel's first year of his deal he had 61 points and was -34. IIRC he played on a line with Bozak and JVR, and while those guys were abysmal defensively (record setting bad even), it was a pretty good spot for putting up points. Nylander's never had the same linemates for an extended period of time, mostly he plays with random leftovers. Give him guys as good offensively as JVR and Bozak for an extended period of time and I'll bet you'd see substantially higher point totals.

You can crunch all the numbers you want but IMHO, your contention that he's 3-4 million overpaid is simply absurd. Bottom line, I'd suggest waiting at least another year or so before getting all worked up about his production.

When it comes to playoffs, Nylander's the last guy I'm worried about.

Not sure I like how he scores his goals in the playoffs.

He usually is beating a goalie that doesn't stop his shots.

Anyone could score those goals.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Long overdue but playing center would severely cut down on the breakaways.

Nylander simply cannot play center on a team trying to win hockey games if he refuses to enter his own end. He gets caved in enough as a winger.

 

[hamzarocks]

Nylander's a little more than half way into the first season of an 8 year deal. For reference, Kessel's first year of his deal he had 61 points and was -34. IIRC he played on a line with Bozak and JVR, and while those guys were abysmal defensively (record setting bad even), it was a pretty good spot for putting up points. Nylander's never had the same linemates for an extended period of time, mostly he plays with random leftovers. Give him guys as good offensively as JVR and Bozak for an extended period of time and I'll bet you'd see substantially higher point totals.

You can crunch all the numbers you want but IMHO, your contention that he's 3-4 million overpaid is simply absurd. Bottom line, I'd suggest waiting at least another year or so before getting all worked up about his production.

When it comes to playoffs, Nylander's the last guy I'm worried about.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Bozak was enemy #1 and a bum here when he was 1C for the 2010 to 2015 leafs

JVR wasnt a better player than Tavares ever as a leaf has been (much cheaper and playoffs wise similar production)

I got called hasty for saying nylander has to be better after 20 games this year

Now after 50 games people still dont seem concerned despite a major drop off in production from last year.

He better drop 9/10 in round 1

 

[Jojalu]

Matthews scammed the Leafs along the same lines, unless you think .03 P/GP is worth $2mm?


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Leafs overpay.

Not the % points difference but Matthews brings a whole bunch more than Pasta does in the rest of the game.

So even if the points were the same, Matthews is the better player.

I still believe the Leafs have painted themselves into a mess with the contracts they have given out, and it seems like they will continue to double down on it.

 

[ULF_55]

Not the % points difference but Matthews brings a whole bunch more than Pasta does in the rest of the game.

So even if the points were the same, Matthews is the better player.

I still believe the Leafs have painted themselves into a mess with the contracts they have given out, and it seems like they will continue to double down on it.

Maybe.

We do know top 2 scorers for both teams based on P/GP over the past 4 playoffs, minimum 25 games.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I just dont see Nylander as a comparable player to Kessel.

Kessel had 3 top 10 pt finishes from 2010 to 2015 for the leafs on a team with less talent that these versions of the leafs and in a harder league for offense.

Kessel was a marner comparable for offensive perspective. If he had played his prime with Matthews as his center would have been a 40G+ & 60A threat for us.

Nylander at 11.5M can't be simply seeing his production drop big time. He has to raise it if hes only ~ppg as a player in the reg season.

We wont win with a ~ppg winger making 11.5M on the team in the playoffs.

"A harder league for offence" applies equally to all teams, so is irrelevant.

Over the last 5 years Matthews has 3 top 10 point finishes, Marner has 2, and Nylander has 1.

Kessel, Matthews, and Marner all play on the top line, so the comparison is fair for them - Matthews is comparable (3 to 3), while Marner Is a step below(2 to Kessel's 3).

Why anyone would even think that it would be fair to compare first line and second line production is beyond me.

For a fair comparison, how many second line players on the Leafs (or for that matter, any team) finished top ten from 2010 to 2015?

Malkin did once (there may be others), so by your criteria he's the true comparable to Nylander.

 

[ZEBROA]

You can't and don't speak for "most of us". Darnell Nurse is overpaid. Tristan Jarry is overpaid. Marc E. Vlasic is overpaid. Nylander is not overpaid for all of the easily verifiable reasons for people interested in good faith exchanges can access.

I think Knies and Nylander should be a fixture, and more so now that McMann has looked good with Marner (and Matthews). A healthy Pacioretty would make a pretty interesting line in the playoffs.

And I think as the cap rises, we'll see that the value is there for Nylander, who, isn't really a "second line" player, but certainly a first line player deployed on the line behind our nigh-70 goal scoring Rocket winner.

I cant speak for everyone but if u ask every Leaffan if Nylander is overpaid(in a vacum) it is not a wild guess 50+% would say yes= "most of us". They as i might be ok with it , but he is still overpaid.

He is a first line player playing on the second line. With Second to fourth line players a lot of times.
Dont know who play best with Nylander of Knies or McMann, but the one who do i want on his side, long time. Marner has Matthews and vice versa. I want a fast smart C with Nylander , not Tavares.

 

[hamzarocks]

"A harder league for offence" applies equally to all teams, so is irrelevant.

Over the last 5 years Matthews has 3 top 10 point finishes, Marner has 2, and Nylander has 1.

Kessel, Matthews, and Marner all play on the top line, so the comparison is fair for them - Matthews is comparable (3 to 3), while Marner Is a step below(2 to Kessel's 3).

Why anyone would even think that it would be fair to compare first line and second line production is beyond me.

For a fair comparison, how many second line players on the Leafs (or for that matter, any team) finished top ten from 2010 to 2015?

Malkin did once (there may be others), so by your criteria he's the true comparable to Nylander.

Nylander plays almost 20 mins a game.

Stop pretending his usage is causing his lack of production. His inconsistency and lack of talent is causing him to be a ppg player nothing else.

kessel played ~20 mins a game as well from 2011 to 2014 but he was a more productive player than nylander.

You never argue in good faith with nylander. You have been pumping his tires for a while now and he has failed to perform anywhere near the required level.

Blame Nylander and stop making excuses for his failures

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not sure I like how he scores his goals in the playoffs.

He usually is beating a goalie that doesn't stop his shots.

Anyone could score those goals.

That's true and that's the biggest separator between him and Marner. When people don't understand how Marner could demand a lot more money than Nylander, they're ignoring the portion of the fan base who has told them that players don't get paid based on playoffs. Also points don't matter, it's how those points are scored. What matters are things like skating around in circles in the summertime that are so pretty, even guys like McKinnon are so blown away that they go out of their way to publicly praise Marner. Fans pay to be entertained and prettiness matters, that's the long and short of it. Whether the gap between the two is so big, that it gets Marner a 14 Million contract remains to be see but make no mistake about it, the gap between the two exists and the reason for it couldn't be more clear.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Bozak was enemy #1 and a bum here when he was 1C for the 2010 to 2015 leafs

JVR wasnt a better player than Tavares ever as a leaf has been (much cheaper and playoffs wise similar production)

I got called hasty for saying nylander has to be better after 20 games this year

Now after 50 games people still dont seem concerned despite a major drop off in production from last year.

He better drop 9/10 in round 1

Sure, I can do that.

FYI - Bozak was never a bum and I never said JVR was a better player than Tavares. Maybe you should try reading more carefully before responding, makes for better discussion.

 

[hamzarocks]

That's true and that's the biggest separator between him and Marner. When people don't understand how Marner could demand a lot more money than Nylander, they're ignoring the portion of the fan base who has told them that players don't get paid based on playoffs. Also points don't matter, it's how those points are scored. What matters are things like skating around in circles in the summertime that are so pretty, even guys like McKinnon are so blown away that they go out of their way to publicly praise Marner. Fans pay to be entertained and prettiness matters, that's the long and short of it. Whether the gap between the two is so big, that it gets Marner a 14 Million contract remains to be see but make no mistake about it, the gap between the two exists and the reason for it couldn't be more clear.


Sure, I can do that.

FYI - Bozak was never a bum and I never said JVR was a better player than Tavares. Maybe you should try reading more carefully before responding, makes for better discussion.

Your points were not relevant and pretending Kessel had elite linemates when his lack of help was a frequent discussion point here during his tenure is just pure revisionist history.

Im sure you thought bozak sucked like everyone else. Bozak's reputation didnt take a turn until 2017 when he moved to 3C

Nylander has not had worse linemates and overall team support than kessel.

He isnt as capable of a player, his career production only confirms that so far.

Domi and Tavares + Nylander should be as good/better line than JVR - Bozak - Kessel was.

The fact that people here think it is not means all 3 of those guys are failing their jobs to get that line to work with Nylander being the highest AAV on that line

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nylander plays almost 20 mins a game.

Stop pretending his usage is causing his lack of production. His inconsistency and lack of talent is causing him to be a ppg player nothing else.

kessel played ~20 mins a game as well from 2011 to 2014 but he was a more productive player than nylander.

You never argue in good faith with nylander. You have been pumping his tires for a while now and he has failed to perform anywhere near the required level.

Blame Nylander and stop making excuses for his failures

I offer factual evidence refuting your post and your response is an ad hominem attack, and then claim I don't "argue in good faith"?