Speculation: Will Teams Be Able to Make Expansion Protection Deals?

[Number 57]

What's the incentive for Las Vegas to do that though? The NHL made the rules so that good players wind up on their roster and the league is going to "advise" management on who they should hire as GM. They aren't going to suggest a GM who would rather have magic beans than de Haan, it's everyone's interest that Vegas be competitive right away.

What kind of package would you give up from the Islanders roster in exchange for de Haan or Pulock? I doubt we'll see many trades of the "please don't take good player x" variety because a quality NHL player is generally preferable to whatever quantity offer you put together. We might see a team bribe Vegas if they only have scrubs and negative value contracts exposed to take cap off their books, but it's naive to think a team can wiggle out of losing a good player they can't protect.

Las Vegas will be in a good position to negotiate because they only need 12 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies. Suppose there is 5 quality goalies available, you obviously wont take all 5. So if a GM comes up and says; listen, if you're not picking this goalie, and instead you're picking our scrub forward, we'll give you a 2nd in 2017 and a 3rd in 2018.

As the GM of Las Vegas you take this deal because there are 4 other goalies you can take, so you'll gladly take the free picks.

Those back-door deals happened before and they will happen again. It's a win-win situation. The existing team keeps their asset and the new team gets draft picks AND still picks good players.

 

[Mr Misty]

Las Vegas will be in a good position to negotiate because they only need 12 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies. Suppose there is 5 quality goalies available, you obviously wont take all 5. So if a GM comes up and says; listen, if you're not picking this goalie, and instead you're picking our scrub forward, we'll give you a 2nd in 2017 and a 3rd in 2018.

As the GM of Las Vegas you take this deal because there are 4 other goalies you can take, so you'll gladly take the free picks.

Those back-door deals happened before and they will happen again. It's a win-win situation. The existing team keeps their asset and the new team gets draft picks AND still picks good players.

I encourage you to read the OP. You came up with a hypothetical that has nothing to do with my post and provided no reason why Vegas would draft somebody besides de Haan and Pulock from the Islanders in exchange for a draft pick.

 

[topnotch]

Las Vegas will be in a good position to negotiate because they only need 12 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies. Suppose there is 5 quality goalies available, you obviously wont take all 5. So if a GM comes up and says; listen, if you're not picking this goalie, and instead you're picking our scrub forward, we'll give you a 2nd in 2017 and a 3rd in 2018.

As the GM of Las Vegas you take this deal because there are 4 other goalies you can take, so you'll gladly take the free picks.

Those back-door deals happened before and they will happen again. It's a win-win situation. The existing team keeps their asset and the new team gets draft picks AND still picks good players.

Why wouldn't Vegas go to another team with an available goalie and say, "team X is offering a 2nd and 3rd to pick your goalie, why don't you offer me a first and I'll pick their goalie"?

Vegas will extract the most value based on the players available and the other teams' desires to not lose those players. Mid- and late-round picks won't be enough to entice them to select scrub players over valuable ones.

Think about it this way, the Islanders have Calvin De Haan and Thomas Hickey exposed to the expansion draft. If a team was trading for De Haan and offering Hickey, what else would have to be given for the return to be equal? A 3rd round pick? No.

De Haan has much more value than Hickey, thus Vegas will require that much more value in order to select Hickey rather than De Haan.

 

[uncleben]

You both fail the HF test by offering quantity for quality. This is essentially a trade where Vegas can get player A or player B + a pick. If we go by the cliche, the team that gets the best player wins the trade so it is always in your interest to take player A instead of the package.

Quantity over quality is not a bad thing.
Team needs will make the package of Player B + pick, more valuable for one team, and simply Player A more valuable for another.
Let's say Vegas can get an A centre from Colorado and New York Islanders. Colorado's next best player is a C defenseman, New York's is a B defenseman.
New York asks you not to take their A centre, and offers a pick to encourage.

You take the pick and draft their B defenseman, bc you know you can take Colorado's equally good A centre, and still end up with a better defenseman, and an extra pick.

Vegas "loses" the trade because they didn't get the best player. But their team is better.
Easy example.



And why would you think Vegas would have "no scouts" lmfao.
Moving roster-ready pieces (they have to select 30 players... you do not need 30 players to ice a team) for draft picks only makes sense. Being sustainably competitive is nigh more important it is more important than being immediately competitive.
They will have professional scouts. They will amateur scouts. They will have North Amercan and European scouts.
They're going to be prepared for this, and they will make transactions as they see fit.
There will be trades. Some will be "won", some will be "lost". I don't get how there is a question of this...

 

[uncleben]

Why wouldn't Vegas go to another team with an available goalie and say, "team X is offering a 2nd and 3rd to pick your goalie, why don't you offer me a first and I'll pick their goalie"?

It's one thing to accept protection money, but extortion will make a new team some fast enemies in the management world, haha

 

[uncleben]

I encourage you to read the OP. You came up with a hypothetical that has nothing to do with my post and provided no reason why Vegas would draft somebody besides de Haan and Pulock from the Islanders in exchange for a draft pick.

Maybe didn't address Pulock or de Haan, but addressed OP's core concept.

They gave a reason why a team would offer protection money (to protect their goalie, in the example given), as well as why Vegas would except the deal (they can still get a good, if not better goalie elsewhere, plus they get a free wallet with the draft picks).

 

[topnotch]

It's one thing to accept protection money, but extortion will make a new team some fast enemies in the management world, haha

Perhaps. But why would Vegas take less than market value? Why wouldn't Vegas take both A centers and then trade one?

If the team is offering fair value for the protection, then sure. But if they aren't, Vegas can just select the best player and trade said player for more value than what is being offered.

 

[topnotch]

Maybe didn't address Pulock or de Haan, but addressed OP's core concept.

They gave a reason why a team would offer protection money (to protect their goalie, in the example given), as well as why Vegas would except the deal (they can still get a good, if not better goalie elsewhere, plus they get a free wallet with the draft picks).

In the OP the Islanders are protecting (my guess) F: Tavares, Ladd, Lee, Cizikas, Bailey, Nelson, and Strome; D: Boychuk, Leddy, Hamonic;

That leaves Pulock, De Haan, Hickey, Kulemin, Chimera, Prince as potential selections by Vegas. Now the OP is also asking Vegas to select the 3rd best player from this list (Hickey?) rather than the first best player (Pulock or De Haan) and is offering a 3rd round pick as compensation.

Would you take Hickey and a 3rd round pick over De Haan?

 

[uncleben]

Perhaps. But why would Vegas take less than market value? Why wouldn't Vegas take both A centers and then trade one?

If the team is offering fair value for the protection, then sure. But if they aren't, Vegas can just select the best player and trade said player for more value than what is being offered.

Reality is, Vegas doesn't need to take any deal. They can select whomever they want, period. They can already take the best player.

Now, if two teams came to Vegas offering protection money, Vegas can play games, and try to create a bidding war.

But if I'm a GM, and a Vegas just comes to me and says, "Tampa (for example) is offering me a 2nd, to not take their G. If you give me a 1st I will not take their deal, and stay away from your G" I would tell them to take my goalie and hangup.

 

[uncleben]

In the OP the Islanders are protecting (my guess) F: Tavares, Ladd, Lee, Cizikas, Bailey, Nelson, and Strome; D: Boychuk, Leddy, Hamonic;

That leaves Pulock, De Haan, Hickey, Kulemin, Chimera, Prince as potential selections by Vegas. Now the OP is also asking Vegas to select the 3rd best player from this list (Hickey?) rather than the first best player (Pulock or De Haan) and is offering a 3rd round pick as compensation.

Would you take Hickey and a 3rd round pick over De Haan?

No. I would not.
You are right that would not be a good deal. Not in a vaccum, at least.

But the point of OPs thread was 'can they make those types of deals' and 'would they'.
We do not know for sure yet if they will be able to, but there is certainly reason why teams would offer Vegas compensation for not taking a player.

Another poster than questioned why Vega would accept compensation, instead of just taking the player they want.

The post I was referring to, and what I have been trying demonstrate myself is that there is in fact reason for Vegas to accept those types of deals.

Taking a 3rd instead of Pulock is not a good deal.
Taking a 3rd instead of Pulock when there is an equally good or better D still available, is not a bad idea.

 

[Rorschach]

In the OP the Islanders are protecting (my guess) F: Tavares, Ladd, Lee, Cizikas, Bailey, Nelson, and Strome; D: Boychuk, Leddy, Hamonic;

That leaves Pulock, De Haan, Hickey, Kulemin, Chimera, Prince as potential selections by Vegas. Now the OP is also asking Vegas to select the 3rd best player from this list (Hickey?) rather than the first best player (Pulock or De Haan) and is offering a 3rd round pick as compensation.

Would you take Hickey and a 3rd round pick over De Haan?

In other words, Isles fans, if Vegas offered you de Haan back for Hickey and a 3rd, would you take it? If yes then LV would rather take de Haan.


Vegas needs picks, prospects and very young NHLers. If you're trying to buy them off to just not pick your youngster, you'll have to pay high.

 

[vannzee]

I sure hope so. I would very much like Ottawa to offer Lazar+ to be able to keep Methot.
Not sure if LV takes that, but I hope it's doable at least.

Would Ottawa do that? Has Lazar fallen that far?

 

[Sparksrus3]

In the OP the Islanders are protecting (my guess) F: Tavares, Ladd, Lee, Cizikas, Bailey, Nelson, and Strome; D: Boychuk, Leddy, Hamonic;

That leaves Pulock, De Haan, Hickey, Kulemin, Chimera, Prince as potential selections by Vegas. Now the OP is also asking Vegas to select the 3rd best player from this list (Hickey?) rather than the first best player (Pulock or De Haan) and is offering a 3rd round pick as compensation.

Would you take Hickey and a 3rd round pick over De Haan?

I would protect
JT,Ladd,nelson,strome,boychuk,leddy,hammer,Dehaan . Pulock may be exempt.
If not then protect pulock not Dehaan.

Leave Lee,Cizikas ,Bailey open for LV.

I would say your protected list is not accurate.

My guess is we lose Lee .

 

[vincent1999]

expansion draft composition

I believe the league states it clearly they have to pick 18 forwards, 9 defensemen and 3 goalies. So it's not a case they can draft say 15 defensemen then turn around and start trading those defensemen to other teams for picks, prospects and forwards

the numbers are: 14 forwards, 9 defensemen and 3 goalies (minimum number for each category), and 4 others from any of the three categories for a total of 30 players, ie one player from each existing NHL team. Not sure the rules stipulated a maximum for any of the three categories. So they could draft up to 13 d-men if there is no stipulation that the 4 others can't be all from one category of player.

 

[vincent1999]

According to the expansion rukes thread on BoH, Vegas has to select 14 forwards, 9 defensemen and 3 goalies. The remaining four are their choice of position, I'd assume.

so Vegas will be picking players both with an eye on fielding a current team, and wrt future developing prospects. So from some teams they'll pick a solid aging veteran, and from others a young prospect with potential.

should be an interesting "exercise" for Vegas management, and quite a "game" of talks or trading between Vegas and some of the other NHL teams--- particularly the strong clubs who have roster strength at every position and often also developing prospect strength in their pipeline.

it's also probably an opportunity for some of the weak sister teams in the NHL to make some deals with the NHL powerhouses.

 

[ichabod13]

im glad mcphee and snow are friends ( as far as i know ). so maybe mcphee will cut snow a cheap deal to leave pulock and dehaan alone.

but then again.....why would mcphee do that? he has a team to build and job to worry about. so he could just say "friendships be damned, ive got a team to build".

 

[topnotch]

I would protect
JT,Ladd,nelson,strome,boychuk,leddy,hammer,Dehaan . Pulock may be exempt.
If not then protect pulock not Dehaan.

Leave Lee,Cizikas ,Bailey open for LV.

I would say your protected list is not accurate.

My guess is we lose Lee .

If Pulock is exempt then, yes, protecting 8 skaters and 1 goalie (4D, 4F) is a viable option for the Islanders. And Vegas may like Lee because there will likely be many other defensemen available.

 

[topnotch]

so Vegas will be picking players both with an eye on fielding a current team, and wrt future developing prospects. So from some teams they'll pick a solid aging veteran, and from others a young prospect with potential.

should be an interesting "exercise" for Vegas management, and quite a "game" of talks or trading between Vegas and some of the other NHL teams--- particularly the strong clubs who have roster strength at every position and often also developing prospect strength in their pipeline.

it's also probably an opportunity for some of the weak sister teams in the NHL to make some deals with the NHL powerhouses.

Based on the expansion draft rules, nearly all of the "prospects" Vegas could select would be waiver eligible, meaning that Vegas could not send those prospects to their AHL team without possibly losing them to waivers.

All waiver ineligible prospects are exempt from expansion - either not enough NHL seasons, or in the AHL but still too young.

I suspect Vegas will select the best NHL talent available to them and then trade players to fill out their NHL and AHL roster; or make deals with teams to not select certain NHL players for good prospects who are waiver ineligible.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I'm pretty sure it's allowed but McPhee is going to make it costly.

The trend among good rebuilds lately has been assembling a lot of picks to build a lot of depth.

It makes a lot of sense to gather picks to do that.

That being said, they still need about 18-20 players, at a minimum, before relying on UFAs and possibly some of their draft picks making the jump right away.

So it's definitely going to happen that a team is going to lose a good player.

And the better the player that is being lost, the higher the price to save him.

So we could see some really scary looking deals being made to save the prospect and sell the farm.

 

[DrDangles]

This is exactly why I haven't put much stock into the idea that the expansion draft will handcuff teams with young roster players.