Will Shane jumping off the Hell in a cell change anything?

[quoipourquoi]

Mick Foley and Jeff Hardy are like the Scott Stevens and Mark Messier of wrestling. Fantastic at the time, but you wonder why there wasn't more awareness and restraint in hindsight. What Shane McMahon did is as out of touch as an elbow to the head in the current NHL.

And while it's fundamentally the same spot as KOTR 1998, they don't communicate the same message in their matches. Mankind taking the high spot of all high spots in the opening minute was jarring. The match doesn't let any time pass before you're ripped out of the narrative in concern for the human being, and then it relentlessly punishes him again and again under the guise of a pro wrestling match. The story becomes less of Undertaker vs Mankind and more of the audience and Mick Foley.

The Shane McMahon spot was 20 minutes of waiting for him to satisfy our bloodlust. All spectacle and no introspection. It's the extra element that made KOTR 1998 what it was. So I don't think Shane McMahon changes anything.

 

[Loosie]

And right there is your problem! We need to go back to the good old days, when nobody worried about that kind of things. We as fans want Entertainment! Entertainment should come Before anything else, especially before safety. Mick Foley and Jeff Hardy didn't become wrestlers because it's safe, they became wrestlers to entertain us fans!

Goodbye credibility!

 

[Mulletman]

You say that as we literally have a wrestler in there giving his opponent more than a dozen suplexes in a 10-minute span.

Everything you said is still there so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah Brock Lesnar, and he's not half the guy he was back when he started. We're the belly to belly suplexes? In the Summerslam match against Cena they actually counted ALL THE SUPLEXES! Just Watch a old match between Angle and Benoit and you'll see how stupid that would've been back then...

Yeah, you still have some of the same moves here and there nowadays. But not nearly as much as back in the day? Serious question: How often do we see a actual back drop in a match on Smackdown and Raw these days? Back in early 2000s that move was everywhere!

 

[TNT87]

It's not going to change anything.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Yeah Brock Lesnar, and he's not half the guy he was back when he started. We're the belly to belly suplexes? In the Summerslam match against Cena they actually counted ALL THE SUPLEXES! Just Watch a old match between Angle and Benoit and you'll see how stupid that would've been back then...

Yeah, you still have some of the same moves here and there nowadays. But not nearly as much as back in the day? Serious question: How often do we see a actual back drop in a match on Smackdown and Raw these days? Back in early 2000s that move was everywhere!

There are belly-to-belly suplexes. Big E does them as well. Gable and Jordan do so, too. There are a lot.

A backdrop does not mean anything gets better, but they're still used.

You went from saying puppies and misogyny is how wrestling should be to suplexes and back drops. Make up your mind. Either way, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Mulletman]

There are belly-to-belly suplexes. Big E does them as well. Gable and Jordan do so, too. There are a lot.

A backdrop does not mean anything gets better, but they're still used.

You went from saying puppies and misogyny is how wrestling should be to suplexes and back drops. Make up your mind. Either way, it doesn't make sense.

Oh I want the whole mix that we got with the attitude era. Just take a look at the high lights from this Old Raw match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlrLzoGR-2Y

It doesn't just have the big spots, it has a ton of suplexes and a intesity that's simply been lost for years now. Sometimes it might help to actually Watch some of these old matches again so we get reminded of just how great it used to be!

 

[Sarcastic]

Can we just get rid of this thread since it's Mulletman just trying to troll people again into a straw man argument?

 

[Serac]

The attitude era is kind of renowned for having "great" story lines and poor match quality
"Rectified" by the insane and career shortening spots that guys would put themselves through

 

[Loosie]

Oh I want the whole mix that we got with the attitude era. Just take a look at the high lights from this Old Raw match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlrLzoGR-2Y

It doesn't just have the big spots, it has a ton of suplexes and a intesity that's simply been lost for years now. Sometimes it might help to actually Watch some of these old matches again so we get reminded of just how great it used to be!

Then sign up for the WWE Network and watch attitude era RAWs and PPVs.

 

[Mulletman]

Then sign up for the WWE Network and watch attitude era RAWs and PPVs.

I don't want to support the Product that they put out at the moment. Plus all those old matches have been edited and altered by the WWE to remove everything that they "don't support" anymore... No thanks!

 

[Emperoreddy]

I think every fan still has a part of them that goes "wow" to the big insane spots.

Shane's spot was to much. I was literally asked him not to do it because it was to scary. Trained professionals doing flips off ladders. Charlotte doing a moonsault off the top to the outside. Those are spots I'll still go "holy ****" to but I don't feel like anyone shortened their lives in the process.

It would be nice if they scaled back their full on PG stuff in certain areas. Brock/Dean for example desperately needed some non-PG spots.

Overall though no. The product does not need to go "edgy" to be good. Blood for blood's sake won't boost the ratings. Honestly it makes it worse. In the attitude era they pulled out a blade all the damn time. We overlooked it in part because it was a different time, but also because the rest of the product was good. Same with the spam finishers ******** that started around here (X7 I love you, but you started a bad trend).

What everyone wants, and what we NEED. Is good writing and good booking. NXT proves you can do both in a PG environment. Everyone can wrestle mostly safe, and still put on a highly entertaining match.

Takeover: Dallas was such a gigantic success because it was booked so well. Everyone on the card wrestled pretty safe matches, but they were all brilliant anyway.

 

[BonMorrison]

-slowly unfurls dusty proposition for the 40 foot Wrestling forum wall-

 

[Kimi]

Can we just get rid of this thread since it's Mulletman just trying to troll people again into a straw man argument?

But the fun of seeing people fall for it would then be lost. It's got minor value for a thread or two before you ban him away.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Mick Foley and Jeff Hardy are like the Scott Stevens and Mark Messier of wrestling. Fantastic at the time, but you wonder why there wasn't more awareness and restraint in hindsight. What Shane McMahon did is as out of touch as an elbow to the head in the current NHL.

And while it's fundamentally the same spot as KOTR 1998, they don't communicate the same message in their matches. Mankind taking the high spot of all high spots in the opening minute was jarring. The match doesn't let any time pass before you're ripped out of the narrative in concern for the human being, and then it relentlessly punishes him again and again under the guise of a pro wrestling match. The story becomes less of Undertaker vs Mankind and more of the audience and Mick Foley.

The Shane McMahon spot was 20 minutes of waiting for him to satisfy our bloodlust. All spectacle and no introspection. It's the extra element that made KOTR 1998 what it was. So I don't think Shane McMahon changes anything.

Since this is definitely getting locked soon I don't mind going a bit off topic.

Big Stevens fan but you are right. In today's NHL he would be having a hearing every week for some of his hits. Legal at the time, in today's world no way that is allowed.

Times change, and there isn't anything wrong with putting more effort into the athletes/performers health.

 

[Emperoreddy]

-slowly unfurls dusty proposition for the 40 foot Wrestling forum wall-

How long does it usually take for the Mania crowd to take off and it is just the few of us again?

 

[Mulletman]

I think every fan still has a part of them that goes "wow" to the big insane spots.

Shane's spot was to much. I was literally asked him not to do it because it was to scary. Trained professionals doing flips off ladders. Charlotte doing a moonsault off the top to the outside. Those are spots I'll still go "holy ****" to but I don't feel like anyone shortened their lives in the process.

It would be nice if they scaled back their full on PG stuff in certain areas. Brock/Dean for example desperately needed some non-PG spots.

Overall though no. The product does not need to go "edgy" to be good. Blood for blood's sake won't boost the ratings. Honestly it makes it worse. In the attitude era they pulled out a blade all the damn time. We overlooked it in part because it was a different time, but also because the rest of the product was good. Same with the spam finishers ******** that started around here (X7 I love you, but you started a bad trend).

What everyone wants, and what we NEED. Is good writing and good booking. NXT proves you can do both in a PG environment. Everyone can wrestle mostly safe, and still put on a highly entertaining match.

Takeover: Dallas was such a gigantic success because it was booked so well. Everyone on the card wrestled pretty safe matches, but they were all brilliant anyway.

But don't you at least agree that it's harder to give us good Writing as long as they're handcuffing the writers with the PG label. There's just so much that's off the table in every aspect of the Product. In the ring, in the promos, in interviews, in wrestling caracters. Without the PG, the writers would've more to work with and could give a better Product in the long run...

 

[Serac]

But don't you at least agree that it's harder to give us good Writing as long as they're handcuffing the writers with the PG label. There's just so much that's off the table in every aspect of the Product. In the ring, in the promos, in interviews, in wrestling caracters. Without the PG, the writers would've more to work with and could give a better Product in the long run...

Watch nxt

 

[BonMorrison]

But don't you at least agree that it's harder to give us good Writing as long as they're handcuffing the writers with the PG label. There's just so much that's off the table in every aspect of the Product. In the ring, in the promos, in interviews, in wrestling caracters. Without the PG, the writers would've more to work with and could give a better Product in the long run...

PG does not handcuff the writers. Bad writing handcuffs the writers. Watch NXT. Watch that video I posted on the first page.

 

[Emperoreddy]

But don't you at least agree that it's harder to give us good Writing as long as they're handcuffing the writers with the PG label. There's just so much that's off the table in every aspect of the Product. In the ring, in the promos, in interviews, in wrestling caracters. Without the PG, the writers would've more to work with and could give a better Product in the long run...

No I don't. Prime example being NXT.

Edit: LMAO everyone responds with NXT. It is true though.

MCG was also right. Heyman's run on Smackdown was proof as well. Things were getting toned down by then, but Heyman booked such a good product that Smackdown was awesome (meanwhile RAW was in HHH's burial mode).

 

[Mulletman]

PG does not handcuff the writers. Bad writing handcuffs the writers. Watch NXT. Watch that video I posted on the first page.

I've watched it already a while back and while I do agree that there's some Points in there, I just don't agree with Adam on all things, especially him wanting to "tone down" the wrestling.

 

[Serac]

This is as bad as y2k telling us that WM was good this year

 

[BonMorrison]

Or when whats-his-face tried to convince us that Daniel Bryan was a B+ player.

 

[S A W F T*]

Or that moron that had been begging for 6 months for E&C to be called up.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Or that moron that had been begging for 6 months for E&C to be called up.

God that clown was getting annoying. Every Monday with that.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Oh I want the whole mix that we got with the attitude era. Just take a look at the high lights from this Old Raw match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlrLzoGR-2Y

It doesn't just have the big spots, it has a ton of suplexes and a intesity that's simply been lost for years now. Sometimes it might help to actually Watch some of these old matches again so we get reminded of just how great it used to be!

The wrestling now is so much better.

ITT you don't know that wrestling has been PG for all but a few years with Raw, and you don't actually know what constraints come with a PG rating - there aren't that many.

This thread has run its course.