Will Ovechkins greatness surpass Crosby???

[Midnight Judges]

Why are you taking about baseball and why are you talking about an NHL award that doesn’t exist and making your own rules that would apply?

Because it's pretty obvious that a player should not be credited for a per-game stat unless they play a certain minimum of games.

How is this unreasonable?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread? HFBoards batsignal goes up and the usual suspects race in to protect the integrity and honor of their player; predictable and almost cult like.

 

[ijuka]

Yes, I'd say. Ovechkin's probably the best goal-scorer ever, and has the unique power forward aspect to his game as well - you could easily argue that he's the best power forward ever, considering the level of scoring during Lindros's prime. Crosby's not the best ever at anything, barely even the best on his own team.

 

[Toby91ca]

Because it's pretty obvious that a player should not be credited for a per-game stat unless they play a certain minimum of games.

How is this unreasonable?

What sort of credit do you think he's getting? It's not like he won an award in a certain year where his games played were low. The only credit he's getting is having been above a point per game in 17 straight seasons, only trailing Gretzky...you think he shouldn't be known for that because of the 2 years with concussion problems where he only played 63 games and put up 103 points? By the way, Gretzky has a year in there were he only played 45 games.

If you like baseball and the way they do things so much, if you think about it more, using their methodologies.....Crosby probably would have more Art Ross trophies than he does (not that I have tried to verify that). Baseball's batting champ is based on batting average, not total hits, so similar to ppg vs. total points....with min plate appearances or games of course. Either way, bit of a non-sense thing to look at here.

 

[Toby91ca]

Yes, I'd say. Ovechkin's probably the best goal-scorer ever, and has the unique power forward aspect to his game as well - you could easily argue that he's the best power forward ever, considering the level of scoring during Lindros's prime. Crosby's not the best ever at anything, barely even the best on his own team.

I don't get the constant arguments repeating that Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever and Crosby isn't the best at anything. What does that even matter? If someone was clearly one of the best players of all time, but because they aren't the best all time, all of a sudden that means they can't be better than someone that was considered best at something (goal scoring)?

 

[ijuka]

I don't get the constant arguments repeating that Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever and Crosby isn't the best at anything. What does that even matter?

Well, this is a "greatness" poll, not a "goodness" poll. I think it matters quite a bit for greatness, at least what it means to me.

The poll doesn't ask "will Ovechkin be known as a better hockey player than Crosby?"

When we talk about the players 40 years down the line, we might say "Ovechkin was the greatest goal-scorer of all time" while with Crosby it's "well he's not really even close to best at anything, but at one point he was the best player in the league".

 

[Toby91ca]

Well, this is a "greatness" poll, not a "goodness" poll. I think it matters quite a bit for greatness, at least what it means to me.

The poll doesn't ask "will Ovechkin be known as a better hockey player than Crosby?"

When we talk about the players 40 years down the line, we might say "Ovechkin was the greatest goal-scorer of all time" while with Crosby it's "well he's not really even close to best at anything, but at one point he was the best player in the league".

I get that, but it's kind of weird....way too subjective (meaning, we are talking about "greatness" vs. who is the better player. I mean, do we really look back in history today and talk about who's legacy is best or who has the most greatness? That is so subjective to how you determine those.....I don't know about you or anyone else, but even if we use those terms, whenever I think about players throughout the history of the game, I simply think about who was the "best player" - that incorporates enough subjectiveness for me on it's own, no reason to throw in other weird stuff.

If you think pure physical skills....Gretzky wasn't close to being the best at anything, but most would consider him the best player ever.

EDIT: Said differently, if you are comparing Crosby and Ovechkin and think they are basically tied in terms of who is the best player, if you want to use the fact that Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever to tip the scale, I'm fine with that...makes sense, but if you are in the boat where you think Crosby is clearly the better player, but we'll say Ovechkin wins the greatness vote....that's what I really don't understand.....who the hell thinks like that? When people ask who is the "greatest player ever", they are going to say who they think is the best. There isn't a follow up question.....ok....but who has the most "greatness"?

 

[norrisnick]

Why are you taking about baseball and why are you talking about an NHL award that doesn’t exist and making your own rules that would apply?

Did you ask Hank Aaron guy that question?

 

[norrisnick]

I get that, but it's kind of weird....way too subjective (meaning, we are talking about "greatness" vs. who is the better player. I mean, do we really look back in history today and talk about who's legacy is best or who has the most greatness? That is so subjective to how you determine those.....I don't know about you or anyone else, but even if we use those terms, whenever I think about players throughout the history of the game, I simply think about who was the "best player" - that incorporates enough subjectiveness for me on it's own, no reason to throw in other weird stuff.

If you think pure physical skills....Gretzky wasn't close to being the best at anything, but most would consider him the best player ever.

EDIT: Said differently, if you are comparing Crosby and Ovechkin and think they are basically tied in terms of who is the best player, if you want to use the fact that Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever to tip the scale, I'm fine with that...makes sense, but if you are in the boat where you think Crosby is clearly the better player, but we'll say Ovechkin wins the greatness vote....that's what I really don't understand.....who the hell thinks like that? When people ask who is the "greatest player ever", they are going to say who they think is the best. There isn't a follow up question.....ok....but who has the most "greatness"?

Greatness is no less subjective than better/best. Better/best at what? Playing hockey? Ok, how does one objectively measure who is better at hockey?

And I get you address that, but to diminish someone saying X is greater because Y and you sit there saying that's more subjective than saying X is better because Y is just silly.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Yes once Ovechkin passes Gretzky.

 

[NordiquesForeva]

I'm not an Ovechkin fan by any means for reasons that aren't important to this particular thread, but surpassing Gretzky to become the all-time goals leader? Come on, that's huge. I'm old enough to remember when Wayne passed Gordie and the attention and significance that was given to that event. If Ovechkin manages to go on to surpass Wayne, I would expect that to be celebrated to the same extent.

I'm a Canadian and respect immensely what Crosby has done for us internationally and with Pittsburgh. His resume is extensive and really, incredible, with some years left to play, and backed up by the eye test. But even acknowledging its subjectivity, Crosby's argument for being "greater" than Ovechkin is kind of flimsy imo. It requires a deep dive into his lengthy resume, factoring in some what-ifs around injury (not his fault, imo), and a healthy amount of team accomplishments (which he played a massive part in). Ovechkin gets to simply point to the goals leaderboard and say "hey, that thing that is most important in winning hockey games? I did that more than anyone else in history. Ever."

At the end of it all, both Ovechkin and Crosby should be recognized as among the top-10 players to ever play the game. Ordering isn't particularly important in my mind, just like its unimportant for Hull vs. Beliveau (the closest analogy we have to these two players.) We got to witness two of the top-10 players of all time, and people should appreciate that more imo.

 

[TeeTee]

I'm not an Ovechkin fan by any means for reasons that aren't important to this particular thread, but surpassing Gretzky to become the all-time goals leader? Come on, that's huge. I'm old enough to remember when Wayne passed Gordie and the attention and significance that was given to that event. If Ovechkin manages to go on to surpass Wayne, I would expect that to be celebrated to the same extent.

I'm a Canadian and respect immensely what Crosby has done for us internationally and with Pittsburgh. His resume is extensive and really, incredible, with some years left to play, and backed up by the eye test. But even acknowledging its subjectivity, Crosby's argument for being "greater" than Ovechkin is kind of flimsy imo. It requires a deep dive into his lengthy resume, factoring in some what-ifs around injury (not his fault, imo), and a healthy amount of team accomplishments (which he played a massive part in). Ovechkin gets to simply point to the goals leaderboard and say "hey, that thing that is most important in winning hockey games? I did that more than anyone else in history. Ever."

At the end of it all, both Ovechkin and Crosby should be recognized as among the top-10 players to ever play the game. Ordering isn't particularly important in my mind, just like its unimportant for Hull vs. Beliveau (the closest analogy we have to these two players.) We got to witness two of the top-10 players of all time, and people should appreciate that more imo.

Using this logic, I would assume that you would place Ovi above Gretzky, correct? Probably not. Why not? Because there are so many other factors to consider. Using your words, the "eye test".

I am convinced that many posters on this board do not spend much time watching Ovi play. They only see a few clips of his highlights. For many many years, his game has been so singularly focused on shots. Watch an entire Caps game and then watch an entire Pens game. Crosby is by far the superior player. It isnt even close.

 

[EdJovanovski]

If everyone didn’t hate Russia Ovechkin would win this poll in a landslide lol

 

[Midnight Judges]

Using this logic, I would assume that you would place Ovi above Gretzky, correct? Probably not. Why not? Because there are so many other factors to consider. Using your words, the "eye test".

I am convinced that many posters on this board do not spend much time watching Ovi play. They only see a few clips of his highlights. For many many years, his game has been so singularly focused on shots. Watch an entire Caps game and then watch an entire Pens game. Crosby is by far the superior player. It isnt even close.

It's funny, I watch every Capitals game and lots of Penguins games and I come away with the exact opposite impression.

The Canadian media can just run with the "Crosby is great at defense now that he's no longer contending for the Art Ross" narrative and people just unquestioningly buy into it. But watching the games, Crosby does very little defensively. He's clearly a 'last guy back' offense-oriented player, and always has been.

Conversely, the falsehood that you typed in your post is destroyed by actually watching Capitals games. Ovechkin once again is leading the team in points by a pretty good margin and the top center on the team only has 2 more assists than Ovie. But to hear your narrative, Ovie doesn't ever pass the puck. But somehow he has a higher career assists-per-game than Patrice Bergeron and Jonathon Toews - who NOBODY has ever accused of being "singularly focused" on something other than passing the puck.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It's funny, I watch every Capitals game and lots of Penguins games and I come away with the exact opposite impression.

The Canadian media can just run with the "Crosby is great at defense now that he's no longer contending for the Art Ross" narrative and people just unquestioningly buy into it. But watching the games, Crosby does very little defensively. He's clearly a 'last guy back' offense-oriented player, and always has been.

Conversely, the falsehood that you typed in your post is also is destroyed by actually watching Capitals games. Ovechkin once again is leading the team in points by a pretty good margin and the top center on the team only has 2 more assists than Ovie. But to hear your narrative, Ovie doesn't ever pass the puck. But somehow he has a higher career assists-per-game than Patrice Bergeron and Jonathon Toews - who NOBODY has ever accused of being "singularly focused" on something other than passing the puck.

Buddy you must be blind. Crosby is always the last forward out of the zone always down low helping his defense

 

[Voight]

Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread? HFBoards batsignal goes up and the usual suspects race in to protect the integrity and honor of their player; predictable and almost cult like.

You'll know the world is going to end when you dont see any new Ovy/Sid threads on HFB.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosby is still one of the best players in the league. Ovechkin is a liability and hanging on to try and break the record. Breaking the record doesn't do anything at this point imo. He's been one dimensional for years.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

All things remaining as they are and on the current trajectory along with Ovi getting the goal record, it's going to be very hard to place Crosby ahead of Ovechkin all time a decade removed from their careers. He's a far more decorated individual player and is already the greatest goal scorer in it's history. They're both top 10 all time but unless Crosby does something really to elevate his personal resume people are going to look back and ask what exactly were we thinking placing Sid ahead of Ovechkin?

Ultimately it will always be neck and neck but time will be far more kind to Ovechkin's career. The amount of sheer records Ovechkin will hold across the board while Crosby will hold exactly zero is pretty spectacular and the laughable one dimensional narrative, and it is embarrassingly laughable to anyone who uses it, goes completely out the window when you have a 3 time MVP who will be top 5 in hits all time and likely top 8-10 in points all time. Also, the international resume is irrelevant, Canada winning in hockey is like the United States winning in the Olympics and the sooner you have to get to the international accolades the weaker your personal resume is.

It's funny that the only people that will refute this are massive Penguins homers. Canadian gold medals don't matter ultimately, one guy will be the GOAT goal scorer, a massive advantage in individual hardware, more MVP's, be neck and neck in points and ahead in primary points, the greatest power forward to ever play the game, the best left winger to ever play the game, the greatest Russian born player to ever play in the NHL and hold an insane amount of records in the league. The only thing Crosby will have over Ovechkin are 2 cups which are no small thing but there are many people with more than 3 Stanley Cups in the HOF, none of them are going in with the individual resume Alexander Ovechkin will have.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

How has he aged better? Crosby's clearly been a better player since 2010. Ovechkin has been a one dimensional scorer for many years.

Objectively false. There are a number of years where Ovechkin has been better, namely he's been better basically every year since the Caps won the Cup but last year it's unarguable that Ovechkin was the better player of the 2. Claiming Crosby has just simply been better since 2010 is about as big of a homer take as you can have.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Pt is a pt

I'll take the pt over a goal any and every day

You'll take 91 pts and I'll take 104

Jesus Christ man, you can't honestly believe this...

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I don't think people here realize how far Ovechkin has declined. He is invisible 5on5 despite getting 91% offensive starts and playing against easy competition. The team is doing everything they can to get him scoring opportunities and all he's doing is his standing around and shooting on the PP routine.

Yes his powerplay scoring is productive, but people also don't consider how much his teamates sacrifice for that. When 1 of your teamates just floats around in the middle of the ice, that means the other 4 guys need to scramble around and forecheck much harder. He doesn't make his teamates better, he just has them working harder to help him.

Yet last year he was stellar and was top 5 in the league in 5v5 points for the first half of the year, led the league in goals for the first half of the yearand most peoples Hart favorite in the first half of the year all while carrying a Caps team who's top 6 were decimated by injury. He tired in the second half but that's expected for a 36 year old. 90 points and 50 goals at 36 while carrying your team to the playoffs is a lot to ask but he did it and he wasn't a liability whatsoever.

Fast forward to this year where Ovi hasn't been good, but he's certainly not bad and he's still producing. The Caps are still decimated by injuries to their best players who are getting close to returning. The Caps have picked up play offensively since Oshie returned so we have to reserve judgement on the drop in play until the end of the year. If it continues then we can have that discussion but we're not even at the halfway mark of the season and the Caps haven't iced a healthy team all year long.

 

[DearDiary]

Yet last year he was stellar and was top 5 in the league in 5v5 points for the first half of the year, led the league in goals for the first half of the yearand most peoples Hart favorite in the first half of the year all while carrying a Caps team who's top 6 were decimated by injury. He tired in the second half but that's expected for a 36 year old. 90 points and 50 goals at 36 while carrying your team to the playoffs is a lot to ask but he did it and he wasn't a liability whatsoever.

Fast forward to this year where Ovi hasn't been good, but he's certainly not bad and he's still producing. The Caps are still decimated by injuries to their best players who are getting close to returning. The Caps have picked up play offensively since Oshie returned so we have to reserve judgement on the drop in play until the end of the year. If it continues then we can have that discussion but we're not even at the halfway mark of the season and the Caps haven't iced a healthy team all year long.

Your injury arguments don't make sense. It should be easier for Ovechkin to score points at ES this season than last season for reasons I have explained through the last few pages. When the Caps players return, why would Ovechkins numbers go up when he will be back to having more DZone starts and facing higher level competition? Compared to now when he's playing sheltered minutes? This is noteworthy considering that your best players are supposed to play harder minutes when there's a lot of team injuries, not get soft balls in starts and competition.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Your injury arguments don't make sense. It should be easier for Ovechkin to score points at ES this season than last season for reasons I have explained through the last few pages. When the Caps players return, why would Ovechkins numbers go up when he will be back to having more DZone starts and facing higher level competition? Compared to now when he's playing sheltered minutes? This is noteworthy considering that your best players are supposed to play harder minutes when there's a lot of team injuries, not get soft balls in starts and competition.

You can't be serious right? Better players make other better players better, especially when they pretty much all are involved in the top 6. If this was a prime superstar Ovechkin we were talking about and his production was at the level of it is now then I'd be more apt to agree with you but he isn't the same player and no one is claiming he is. Last year he was immensely effective in every capacity of the game and jumping on a small sample size to desperately try and prove a point when most of the teams important players are out and injured is just a bad look overall.

 

[DearDiary]

You can't be serious right? Better players make other better players better, especially when they pretty much all are involved in the top 6. If this was a prime superstar Ovechkin we were talking about and his production was at the level of it is now then I'd be more apt to agree with you but he isn't the same player and no one is claiming he is. Last year he was immensely effective in every capacity of the game and jumping on a small sample size to desperately try and prove a point when most of the teams important players are out and injured is just a bad look overall.

The point is that the Caps are decimated with injuries, that's why we're having this discussion. So why does their best player have 11 DZone starts in 26 games and playing against weak competition? Why is the Caps coach sheltering Ovechkin and having the Caps worse players play harder minutes and set them up to fail? Ovechkin is not producing enough at ES to cover for how much his coach has helped him.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

All things remaining as they are and on the current trajectory along with Ovi getting the goal record, it's going to be very hard to place Crosby ahead of Ovechkin all time a decade removed from their careers. He's a far more decorated individual player and is already the greatest goal scorer in it's history. They're both top 10 all time but unless Crosby does something really to elevate his personal resume people are going to look back and ask what exactly were we thinking placing Sid ahead of Ovechkin?

Ultimately it will always be neck and neck but time will be far more kind to Ovechkin's career. The amount of sheer records Ovechkin will hold across the board while Crosby will hold exactly zero is pretty spectacular and the laughable one dimensional narrative, and it is embarrassingly laughable to anyone who uses it, goes completely out the window when you have a 3 time MVP who will be top 5 in hits all time and likely top 8-10 in points all time. Also, the international resume is irrelevant, Canada winning in hockey is like the United States winning in the Olympics and the sooner you have to get to the international accolades the weaker your personal resume is.

It's funny that the only people that will refute this are massive Penguins homers. Canadian gold medals don't matter ultimately, one guy will be the GOAT goal scorer, a massive advantage in individual hardware, more MVP's, be neck and neck in points and ahead in primary points, the greatest power forward to ever play the game, the best left winger to ever play the game, the greatest Russian born player to ever play in the NHL and hold an insane amount of records in the league. The only thing Crosby will have over Ovechkin are 2 cups which are no small thing but there are many people with more than 3 Stanley Cups in the HOF, none of them are going in with the individual resume Alexander Ovechkin will have.

Unless everybody goes I am legend this will not happen. Idc
ANYBODY who thinks ovechkin Is in any way shape or form a better HOCKEY player than Crosby cannot be taken seriousley