Why Were the Maple Leafs SO Damn Bad in the 80s? | Page 2 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Why Were the Maple Leafs SO Damn Bad in the 80s?

Ballard aside, how about their penchant for not giving their top picks time to develop, and instead often making them NHL regulars before they were ready (often as teenagers).

A lot of people point to drafting, but drafting poorly, and developing players poorly are not one and the same.
I think the 80's era Leafs often put their top picks in the best possible position to fail.

Its still Ballard, spend *money* on development!? Spend *money* on drafting?!
The Leafs once had 3, yes Three 1st rounders. All the picks were used on Belleville Bulls.
Why? That was really furthest his scouting budget would allow.

There is never a "Ballard aside" situation, when talking about those Leafs.
 
Its still Ballard, spend *money* on development!? Spend *money* on drafting?!
The Leafs once had 3, yes Three 1st rounders. All the picks were used on Belleville Bulls.
Why? That was really furthest his scouting budget would allow.

There is never a "Ballard aside" situation, when talking about those Leafs.

Yup that was a total joke, that draft.. :facepalm:
 
Brophy wasn't bad! He was successful with the baby leafs and the big team did more with him during the 80s in the regular season and playoffs than they did with any other coach. He ended up winning over 1000 games in the minors and they named their coach of the year award after him.

I thought Carpenter did pretty good too, but then he was not to last...of course.
 
I never heard this 3-first-rounders-from-Belleville story... thought I knew all the Ballard stories. What year was this?

1989

So they could have had Lidstrom or Fedorov or Bure or Kolzig whatever.. but apparently they had no scouting and Ballard also hated Europeans/Russians so even though the Leafs limited scouting had identified Fedorov as a guy they might want they were overruled.

Drafted a bunch of guys from Belleville for god only knows what reason..
 
I know, and as terrible as it sounds I think team morale goes up after a horrible owner dies..

I remember a quote he made:
"I wouldn't trade Turnbull away for God."

Turnbull was traded in 1981.


He was an outrageous man. Mugging for the cameras, the media loved him. Jim Gregory was once asked whether or not Harold sacrificed winning. Gregory said he didn't think so because winning would put Harold front and centre which is what he'd want.

Does everyone remember when Bill Wirtz died? The next season when his son took over the team there was a small presentation for him at the beginning of the home opener. The fans booed the presentation mercilessly. I didn't like that, but it did show that he was hated so badly.
 
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My favourite Ballard story was the one Barry Melrose told about how at the start of every week, no matter how many players were nursing injuries suffered in weekend games, when the trainer arrived his first responsibility was to clip Ballard's toenails for him.

By the way, it is also mentioned here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpDTWnUPzxU
Something about something frozen was also mentioned, although I couldn't hear/understand what was said.
 
No doubt in my mind that Pal Hal is looking UP at us now, shaking his fist...

... and probably chuckling at the same time over the dysfunction from Stavro's through Rogers/Bell.

...but in 40 years you have maybe a maximum of 10 years where the team wasn't an utter joke. And you can trace this to Ballard.

... pretty much ya, he spent his time as have those who followed more concerned with profit & loss more than anything else really.

OK, calm down there -- I was referring to the teams' respective play on the ice, not the management.

Interesting to read that Brophy was actually respected and was a successful coach at another level. I did not know that.

.... :laugh: Edmontons' hardly handicapped in the same way Toronto was in the 70's & 80's as it was with Ballard vs Katz. Perhaps though Peter Pocklington, when his empire began to crumble and the Oilers were dismantled, unwinding, certainly theres a faction in Edmonton & Oilers fans elsewhere who have issues with Peter Puck. So similarity there perhaps as well.

And ya, John Brophy went on to have a lengthy career as a minor league Coach. 18yrs as a player (born in 1933) in the old Eastern Hockey League mostly with the Long Island Ducks ("Once a Duck, always a Duck") retiring at the age of 40 having racked up over 4000 PIM's. A record beyond imagining. Swath of destruction and a sea of blood behind that ones playing career. Hard core Baby. The character Reggie Dunlop in Slapshot based roughly on it in fact as were other players from that league & era.

Through the 70's (starting with the role of Playing/Coach on LI) he coached the Hampton Gulls of the EHL for several years before joining Birmingham of the WHA as an Assistant to Glen Sonmor, who left, then taking over as Head Coach.... when that stint ended hired by the Montreal Canadiens as HC with the Nova Scotia (he's actually a native of Antigonish NS) Voyageurs where he remained for 3 seasons. Hired by Toronto as an Assistant Coach then reassigned as HC with the St.Catherines Saints of the AHL, Coached the farm team for a year before being promoted to Head Coach in Toronto. Feuded with Gerry McNamara the so called GM, but a Ballard favorite, McNamara demanding Brophy be fired but instead getting the axe himself. Eventually was fired though in December 88. Thereafter he returned to the ECHL winning several league titles through the 90's. Had a bad car accident around 2000 but did return to Coaching in the ECHL & Southern Professional Hockey League before retiring, and at 73 then Coached a Junior Team in Nova Scotia for awhile.

Believe you me, his evil goes further...much, much further.

.... couldnt help himself, no. I read several bio's on him, speculated or postulated that the death of his wife from Cancer years earlier was a huge blow to him, that she'd been an anchor to his wandering, egoistic & miscreant propensities. On the other side of the coin, he could be very generous, benevolent, donating a fair amount of time & $$$, free use of the Gardens to charities over the years. Quite a facinating character in many ways. Full speed when he was a younger, including a love for Hydroplane Racing including Long Distance Races around Lake Ontario & so on. His father doing very well with Ballard Manufacturing, Machinists, the development of the Ballard Skate, entry into hockey circles & so on. A sort of Salesman/Promoter type. Rather bizarrely, he kept the family home out in Etobicoke long after he'd moved into the Gardens, a sort of timepiece, museum, tribute to his departed wife and that he rarely ever visited, stuck in the 50's that his youngest son (who had all kinds of problems) lived at and sort of "maintained". Very dysfunctional family situation. His other Son Bill Ballard quite successful, teaming up with Michael Kohl forming CPI (Concert Productions International) who amongst other tours handled the Rolling Stones Steel Wheels Tour, Michael Kohl then going on to handle exclusively every Stones tour that followed through the 90's & 00's. There was a major fight for control of the Gardens & Leafs after Ballards death, Bill Ballard unfortunately losing out to Stavro's, who's triangulations in gaining control werent exactly on the up & up, not entirely Kosher but thats another story altogether.
 
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Those 89-90 leafs were playing total barnstorming hockey, a team had to score against those leafs to stand a chance.as well the leafs still had a young Wendell Clark as well.that was a leafs te that if properly fine tuned could have been a great team

This is it. It wasn't just the goalies. The defensemen were OK too. It was the system they played. They were the most run and gun leafs team of my generation.
 
1989

So they could have had Lidstrom or Fedorov or Bure or Kolzig whatever.. but apparently they had no scouting and Ballard also hated Europeans/Russians so even though the Leafs limited scouting had identified Fedorov as a guy they might want they were overruled.

Drafted a bunch of guys from Belleville for god only knows what reason..

Leafs wouldnt have drafted Lidström, Fedorov or Bure but imagine if they picked Barnes/Guerin, Kölzig and Foote instead...
 
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I remember a quote he made:
"I wouldn't trade Turnbull away for God."

Turnbull was traded in 1981.


He was an outrageous man. Mugging for the cameras, the media loved him. Jim Gregory was once asked whether or not Harold sacrificed winning. Gregory said he didn't think so because winning would put Harold front and centre which is what he'd want.

Does everyone remember when Bill Wirtz died? The next season when his son took over the team there was a small presentation for him at the beginning of the home opener. The fans booed the presentation mercilessly. I didn't like that, but it did show that he was hated so badly.

I remember vividly when Wirtz died.... Even before that I said on numerous occasions the Hawks will never win a cup with Dollar Bill running the team and sure enough I was right.... Rocky Wirtz is a genius tho. Rocky actually cares about the fans, cares about the sport and cares about the team.

Ballard tho - that guy treated his players like indentured servants. Then screwed his players over when they wanted out..

I'm personally not that big a a union fan but Ballard is a perfect example of why unions are needed - at least the NHLPA...

I don't even know where to begin with both Ballard and Bill Wirtz...

I'll say this much - and not many hockey fans know this but when Rocky Wirtz took over the team he threw Bob Pulford in a back office and all he does now is shuffle papers all day - I don't even think he works for the Blackhawks - I think he was transferred to the Wirtz alcohol company.
 
I think people are reading too much into the 1989 draft/Belleville situation. It's not like they were off-the-board picks, they all went about where they were ranked before the draft. No team was going to take Fedorov or Bure that early because of the uncertainty of whether they'd be allowed to join the NHL or not.
 
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I think people are reading too much into the 1989 draft/Belleville situation. It's not like they were off-the-board picks, they all went about where they were ranked before the draft. No team was going to take Fedorov or Bure that early because of the uncertainty of whether they'd be allowed to join the NHL or not.

Exactly....

A lot of "stars" from the Iron Curtain were drafted in the 80's but they were all late round picks because they were all risks, there was no certainty that they could even defect to the US...

Teams really didn't get comfortable drafting even Europeans until the USSR fell.... Hell the few that did manage to play in the 70's and 80's were basically smuggled into North America...

I suppose the Swedes were the only exception.
 
Okay, so I know the short answer is -- Harold Ballard. Ballard almost single-handedly crippled the franchise from the late 70s onward.

But beyond that...? I mean, other franchises have had terrible ownership but still managed to hire competent people and occasionally have good teams during long dry-spells. However, the Leafs in the 80s represent a stunning nadir of high-profile-team with low-quality-play. It was just sad.

Check out the Leafs' win-% between 1981 and 1989:
.350
.425
.381
.300
.356
.438
.325
.388

The low-point was 1984-85, when they finished with 48 points, allowing 358 goals against. Borje Salming went from a +45 in 1977 to a -34 in 1984.

It was one long period of ineptness. But it's not like their drafting was that bad -- in this period they drafted Gary Leeman, Russ Courtnall, Alan Bester, Al Iafrate, Todd Gill, Wendel Clark and Vince Damphousse (just during 1982 to 1986) and all of those players played for them, and were decent prospects (at least 4 of them being future All Stars). Yet it wasn't until 1993 (when few of these players remained) that they actually finished over .500 in the standings -- after 13 straight seasons of finishing below that (they did reach .500 exactly in 1990, but they fell back to losing records for two more seasons).

But despite half-decent drafting, their coaching/player development must have sucked. For example, in 1980, they drafted defenceman Craig Muni. Six years later, despite some good play when he was brought up from the minors, they still didn't think he was worthy of their inept pro-team. But who thought he could play for them? The Oilers. He joined Edmonton right away, became a regular, and won 3 Cups in 4 years.

What are your memories of the Leafs in the 80s? And more importantly, why were they so damn bad for so long?
The simple and obvious answer is lack of talent.
Considering free agency didn't really exist and teams couldn't buy players like today I assume bad trades and bad drafts.
I do remember some of those awful moves but I'm sure someone will refresh all our memories.
 
I was pretty young when Harold Ballard was the running the Leafs into the ground in the 80s, but I do remember images of him sitting in his bunker at Maple Leaf Gardens during games on HNIC.

Reading some of the info. about him on Wikipedia does bring back some memories of the stories I recall hearing about him way back when. Ballard reminds me a bit of Donald Sterling actually.

That story about him jacking up the temperatures in the Garden before the Beatles concert, shutting off the water fountains, delaying the concert over an hour and then charging 3 times the normal price for pop....:shakehead
 
Ken Dryden said of Ballard "he was like a wrestling villain who touches the audience to make his next villainy seem worse". And very much so. He let Bernie Parent just walk (to the WHA) because he was too cheap to pay him properly, excommunicates Dave Keon while publicly trashing him.... Tempestuously fired people, one guy who had been at the Gardens for years for refusing to walk his dog, re-hiring them the next hour or day. Harolds Circus & he the Ringleader.
 
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