Why Were the Maple Leafs SO Damn Bad in the 80s?

[The Panther]

Okay, so I know the short answer is -- Harold Ballard. Ballard almost single-handedly crippled the franchise from the late 70s onward.

But beyond that...? I mean, other franchises have had terrible ownership but still managed to hire competent people and occasionally have good teams during long dry-spells. However, the Leafs in the 80s represent a stunning nadir of high-profile-team with low-quality-play. It was just sad.

Check out the Leafs' win-% between 1981 and 1989:
.350
.425
.381
.300
.356
.438
.325
.388

The low-point was 1984-85, when they finished with 48 points, allowing 358 goals against. Borje Salming went from a +45 in 1977 to a -34 in 1984.

It was one long period of ineptness. But it's not like their drafting was that bad -- in this period they drafted Gary Leeman, Russ Courtnall, Alan Bester, Al Iafrate, Todd Gill, Wendel Clark and Vince Damphousse (just during 1982 to 1986) and all of those players played for them, and were decent prospects (at least 4 of them being future All Stars). Yet it wasn't until 1993 (when few of these players remained) that they actually finished over .500 in the standings -- after 13 straight seasons of finishing below that (they did reach .500 exactly in 1990, but they fell back to losing records for two more seasons).

But despite half-decent drafting, their coaching/player development must have sucked. For example, in 1980, they drafted defenceman Craig Muni. Six years later, despite some good play when he was brought up from the minors, they still didn't think he was worthy of their inept pro-team. But who thought he could play for them? The Oilers. He joined Edmonton right away, became a regular, and won 3 Cups in 4 years.

What are your memories of the Leafs in the 80s? And more importantly, why were they so damn bad for so long?

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Killion is probably madly typing his discourse at the moment so I'll just wait for his response that he has kindly shared in bits and pieces in many different threads over the past few years.

 

[Disengage]

Harold Ballard. Feel free to close the thread, we're done here.

 

[seventieslord]

Harold Ballard. Feel free to close the thread, we're done here.

Indeed.

Still, let's wait to hear killion's take.

 

[Killion]

Killion is probably madly typing his discourse at the moment so I'll just wait for his response that he has kindly shared in bits and pieces in many different threads over the past few years.

Harold Ballard. Feel free to close the thread, we're done here.

Indeed... Still, let's wait to hear killion's take.

Disengage nails it. Winner Winner Chicken Dinner right there. Harold Ballard playing GM. Second guessing the Scouts. John Brophy (amongst others) imported in from the deepest darkest jungles. No. No one was going to steal Harolds limelight. Not a GM. Not the Coach. Most assuredly none of the players. Harold Ballard Show & that was that. Frightening to think what mightve been had the old reprobate lived another decade or two. Theres lots more I guess we could discuss but my Blood Pressure, Doc says I gotta watch it, not that I listen or care. Thats all for now though. Harold E. Ballard.

 

[Stat Guy]

I grew up with the 80's Leafs and am a stronger person because of it.

 

[Killion]

I grew up with the 80's Leafs and am a stronger person because of it.

... ya, built character in that generation, for sure, and their were bright spots. Ricky Vaives 50, fact that he'd drop em' so readily; Wendel Clarkes arrival.... watching John Brophys face turn from white to pink, to crimson red to purple. Yes. Highly entertaining... off~ice as well..... Harold & Yolanda.... the time Billy Ballard purportedly "hauled off and kicked her in the stomach somethin awful" according to Harold who supposedly witnessed it all.... just beyond Trailer Park crazy really.

... and welcome to hf Stat Guy.

 

[Cruor]

Here's the opening paragraph from Wikipedia about Ballard and team managment:

Ballard was a very hands-on owner who quickly became known for being irascible and cantankerous. He tried to micromanage the team, interfering with coaches and players. Soon after taking over as majority owner, he forced out several longtime front-office personnel and replaced them with his own men. For example, he cut the salary of chief scout and former Leafs star Bob Davidson by almost two-thirds, forcing Davidson to resign. Davidson had served in the Leafs organization for almost 40 years in various capacities.

Ballard's opposition to European players was so virulent that a Leafs scout used Ballard's time in jail to sign Börje Salming, one of the NHL's first great European players.

Juding from the sound of it that's a recipie for disaster right there.

 

[The Panther]

I was hoping we could get beyond Ballard and down to dressing-room / ice level.

Thinking about it now, the 80s' Leafs are called to mind by today's Edmonton Oilers (much as it pains me to say it). A nice collection of very soft, skilled young forwards, backed-up by a weak defense and no coherent defensive system to speak of.

As a kid, I always thought Brophy looked like an idiot on the bench. Was he?

Oh, then there was that Courtnall for Kordic trade. That has to rank as one of the 5 or 6 worst trades ever...

 

[BraveCanadian]

I was hoping we could get beyond Ballard and down to dressing-room / ice level.

Thinking about it now, the 80s' Leafs are called to mind by today's Edmonton Oilers (much as it pains me to say it). A nice collection of very soft, skilled young forwards, backed-up by a weak defense and no coherent defensive system to speak of.

As a kid, I always thought Brophy looked like an idiot on the bench. Was he?

Oh, then there was that Courtnall for Kordic trade. That has to rank as one of the 5 or 6 worst trades ever...

It really is primarily from Ballard.

The example set at the top ran through the organization.

They were also terrible at developing players, particularly defensemen, who they routinely threw to the wolves.

They picked bad coaches, handcuffed or overruled their scouts, had poor management.. it all stems from the guy at the top.

 

[Killion]

I was hoping we could get beyond Ballard and down to dressing-room / ice level.... Thinking about it now, the 80s' Leafs are called to mind by today's Edmonton Oilers (much as it pains me to say it). A nice collection of very soft, skilled young forwards, backed-up by a weak defense and no coherent defensive system to speak of.

Impossible to get past Ballard if you want the facts, cut to the chase. Is Daryl Katz a megalomaniacal, misogynistic narcissist who 2nd guess his GM's, Scouts & Coaches? Is he defacto GM himself directly negotiating Contracts & trading players without his GM/Coaches knowledge let alone consent? Does he call~out players & hockey personnel in the press? Does he try to destroy the memories, both tangible in the building & in memory of the great Oilers Dynasty Years amongst the fan base by making disparaging remarks about the previous regime? Does he not welcome back to Northlands (and then to the new building) the Greats of the Oilers past? Does he embarrass the organization & the city of Edmonton practically everytime he opens his mouth?.... didnt think so.... As for this crop, the last few years worth of Oilers being akin to the 80's Leafs, not really and not so much as in hardly. Dysfunctional yes but nowhere near to the depths of the Leafs under Ballard in the 80's.

 

[seventieslord]

Brophy wasn't bad! He was successful with the baby leafs and the big team did more with him during the 80s in the regular season and playoffs than they did with any other coach. He ended up winning over 1000 games in the minors and they named their coach of the year award after him.

 

[Killion]

Brophy wasn't bad!

Brophy? Ya, easy to criticize & his relationship with some of the players pretty strained, but he'd earned that walk through the big leagues. Hockey lifer. Seriously old school & tough as nails but at the same time did engender loyalty & respect. In a none too easy situation what with Ballards interference.

 

[reckoning]

My favourite Ballard story was the one Barry Melrose told about how at the start of every week, no matter how many players were nursing injuries suffered in weekend games, when the trainer arrived his first responsibility was to clip Ballard's toenails for him.

They had a very good coach in Roger Neilson who was turning things around and had them on the right track. So naturally Ballard fired him. Twice. He was adamantly opposed to putting player names on the back of their jerseys, because he thought it would hurt program sales, yet didn't care about potential earnings from playoff games being lost due to his mismanagement making the team so bad that they couldn't make the playoffs.

There was no reason or logic behind his moves. You honestly had to wonder if senility played a role in his decisions.

 

[Killion]

They had a very good coach in Roger Neilson who was turning things around and had them on the right track. So naturally Ballard fired him. Twice. He was adamantly opposed to putting player names on the back of their jerseys, because he thought it would hurt program sales...

... indeed. However, he complied with the league rule of names on the backs of sweaters.... putting them on in white lettering on the white jerseys, blue on the blue jerseys..... or the time Ralph Mellanby, then Producer of HINC is at the Gardens telling Harold he has to install new lighting because of the league~wide mandate pursuant to color TV. Ballard wouldnt pay. Demanded CBC & or HNIC pay for it, wasnt his problem. So minutes before air time one night, demands Mellanby pay for the lighting or else. Mellanby refuses so Harold grabs a Fire Ax off the wall, goes over to a mass of wires & cables, tells Mellanby "fine, no broadcasts at all" & gets ready to swing..... And poor Roger Neilson. Fired one night, hired back like the next day after outrage from everyone, Ballard however demanding that Roger there wear a paper bag over his head as a "Mystery Coach" next game.

 

[Barnum]

... indeed. However, he complied with the league rule of names on the backs of sweaters.... putting them on in white lettering on the white jerseys, blue on the blue jerseys..... or the time Ralph Mellanby, then Producer of HINC is at the Gardens telling Harold he has to install new lighting because of the league~wide mandate pursuant to color TV. Ballard wouldnt pay. Demanded CBC & or HNIC pay for it, wasnt his problem. So minutes before air time one night, demands Mellanby pay for the lighting or else. Mellanby refuses so Harold grabs a Fire Ax off the wall, goes over to a mass of wires & cables, tells Mellanby "fine, no broadcasts at all" & gets ready to swing..... And poor Roger Neilson. Fired one night, hired back like the next day after outrage from everyone, Ballard however demanding that Roger there wear a paper bag over his head as a "Mystery Coach" next game.

Ohhh yes how I forget. I feel guilty whining about Sinden and Jacobs now.


Okay not that guilty....

 

[Pyrophorus]

No doubt in my mind that Pal Hal is looking UP at us now, shaking his fist...

His mania for making or saving money, knew no (and I mean NONE) end or depth.

Whenever anyone chides the Leafs for not winning the Cup in 48 years, a massive chunk, was due to
this pale imitation of a human being.

 

[Mr. Fancy Pants]

Ok, if you want to ignore the elephant in the room, another reason why they were so bad is because they could be. They played in, by far, the weakest division in the NHL.

Take a look at the point totals in years they actually DID make the playoffs:

1983: 28-40-12 68pts -37 GF/GA
1986: 25-48-7 57pts -75 GF/GA
1987: 32-42-6 70pts -33 GF/GA
1988: 21-49-10 52pts -72 GF/GA

There were a few years when the division leader would barely have a .500 winning percentage. In fact in the 86-87 season, the St. Louis Blues won the division with 79 points in 80 games.

The Norris division champion didn't beat the Smythe division champion until 1991 when the North Stars went on their miracle run. (Ok, they did always have to go through Edm/Cal & Van in 82) From 1982-1990, the Norris division winner had a 11-36 record against the Smythe division winner in the Conference Finals.

The weak division didn't really provide any incentive to get better. Even with such horrible teams, the Leafs did manage to make it to game 7 of the Norris finals in 1986 and 1987. In '86 they lost by just one goal in game 7 and in '87 they blew a 3-1 series lead.

Even if Ballard had improved the team, what could they do? No one was going to get through Edmonton or Calgary to the SCF.

...but obviously, the reason is Ballard.

 

[IComeInPeace]

Ballard aside, how about their penchant for not giving their top picks time to develop, and instead often making them NHL regulars before they were ready (often as teenagers).

A lot of people point to drafting, but drafting poorly, and developing players poorly are not one and the same.
I think the 80's era Leafs often put their top picks in the best possible position to fail.

 

[Big Phil]

It might surprise people to know this, but in 1989-'90 despite a mediocre .500 record, the Leafs were third in the NHL in goals for. They had 337. The Kings had 338. The Flames had 348. That's it. They are a few goalposts away from being the highest scoring team in the NHL. They had some young talent, check out those point totals for that year:

Leeman - 95
Damphousse - 94
Olczyk - 88
Marois - 76
Osborne - 73

Iafrate had 63 points, tops for defensemen on the team. Leeman had 51 goals.

They could score rather well at this time, that wasn't the problem. The problem was goaltending. Allan Bester, Mark Laforest, Jeff Reese, Peter Ing............it didn't matter who they threw in net, they were dreadful.

There wasn't actually a "bad" defensive core at least from an offensive standpoint. Iafrate, Ramage, Kurvers. Nothing you would win a Cup with though.

The 1990 Leafs allowed 358 goals, that was their downfall. The Penguins allowed 359 and Quebec allowed 407. Their goalies just couldn't stop a beach ball.

Plus there was a string of dysfunction for a while. Sittler stripped the "C" off of his jersey as a form of protest for trading Lanny McDonald. I think that mindset just trickled down afterwards. Draft eligible players would request that the Leafs don't draft them. They went through coach after coach after coach.

So how did this dysfunction start? That's easy. Ballard. It started in the 1970s. When you have three players on your team who eventually get in the HHOF (Sittler, McDonald, Salming) you should preserve that. Ballard ran Keon out of town in 1975 all the way to the WHA. He held his NHL rights until 1979. That was stupid. Trade him Harold. Get something back for him. Keon was still valuable that they could have gotten a decent winger back then for him. But he was stubborn. He took things personally. In 1978 they had that trio of players mentioned above plus Roger Neilson as head coach. Plus a good goalie in Mike Palmateer. Ballard screwed it up. He traded McDonald just to spite Sittler. He once traded Laurie Boschmann just because he was religious. That's it, it was all personal with him.

So when that mindset comes from up above it trickles down and it takes a long, long time to get rid of that stench. To the point where Keon still thinks the Leafs organization hasn't changed their ways. It is almost ingrained in us to be dysfunctional. The Fletcher/Burns era and then the Quinn/Sundin/Joseph era brought us back to respectability but in 40 years you have maybe a maximum of 10 years where the team wasn't an utter joke. And you can trace this to Ballard.

 

[crobro]

Those 89-90 leafs were playing total barnstorming hockey, a team had to score against those leafs to stand a chance.as well the leafs still had a young Wendell Clark as well.that was a leafs te that if properly fine tuned could have been a great team

 

[The Panther]

Impossible to get past Ballard if you want the facts, cut to the chase. Is Daryl Katz a megalomaniacal, misogynistic narcissist who 2nd guess his GM's, Scouts & Coaches? Is he defacto GM himself directly negotiating Contracts & trading players without his GM/Coaches knowledge let alone consent? Does he call~out players & hockey personnel in the press? Does he try to destroy the memories, both tangible in the building & in memory of the great Oilers Dynasty Years amongst the fan base by making disparaging remarks about the previous regime? Does he not welcome back to Northlands (and then to the new building) the Greats of the Oilers past? Does he embarrass the organization & the city of Edmonton practically everytime he opens his mouth?.... didnt think so.... As for this crop, the last few years worth of Oilers being akin to the 80's Leafs, not really and not so much as in hardly. Dysfunctional yes but nowhere near to the depths of the Leafs under Ballard in the 80's.

OK, calm down there -- I was referring to the teams' respective play on the ice, not the management.

Interesting to read that Brophy was actually respected and was a successful coach at another level. I did not know that.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I was hoping we could get beyond Ballard and down to dressing-room / ice level.

Thinking about it now, the 80s' Leafs are called to mind by today's Edmonton Oilers (much as it pains me to say it). A nice collection of very soft, skilled young forwards, backed-up by a weak defense and no coherent defensive system to speak of.

As a kid, I always thought Brophy looked like an idiot on the bench. Was he?

Oh, then there was that Courtnall for Kordic trade. That has to rank as one of the 5 or 6 worst trades ever...

I wouldn't use the word "soft" - they liked to brawl and I saw plenty of it in the 80's between the Leafs and Hawks..

In short tho - it's difficult to point out one reason the Leafs were a bad team in the 80's. They had some decent players, hell the Hawks even gifted them Eddie O and Al Secord..

Things certainly turned around for them in the 90's when "The Cat" arrived.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Things certainly turned around for them in the 90's when "The Cat" arrived.

1991, when Ballard died.

You of all people (fanbase) should know of bumps, after a poor owner dies.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I wouldn't use the word "soft" - they liked to brawl and I saw plenty of it in the 80's between the Leafs and Hawks..

In short tho - it's difficult to point out one reason the Leafs were a bad team in the 80's. They had some decent players, hell the Hawks even gifted them Eddie O and Al Secord..

Things certainly turned around for them in the 90's when "The Cat" arrived.

1991, when Ballard died.

You of all people (fanbase) should know of bumps, after a poor owner dies.

Cliff Fletcher.

Those 89-90 leafs were playing total barnstorming hockey, a team had to score against those leafs to stand a chance.as well the leafs still had a young Wendell Clark as well.that was a leafs te that if properly fine tuned could have been a great team

One of the most exciting teams ever to watch. So much talent playing wide open. Never knew what was going to happen because they could score almost at will but also got scored on all the time too haha..