Why was Jagr so underwhelming in the playoffs?

[PistolPete]

wait were you suggesting that Jagr did not had individual success in the playoff during his prime ? 22-27 jagr scored at a different pace than anyone that were not Gretzky-Lemieux:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

PPG
Jagr: 1.36 (+17, move even strength points than Sakic in 26 less games)
Lindros: 1.14
Forsberg: 1.12
Sakic: 1.11

I thought you meant a lack of team success during his prime.

I was wondering why you mentioned Bobby Hull in response to daver's post about Jagr being a goat without PO success.

I think Jagr was fine as a PO performer

 

[MadLuke]

I was wondering why you mentioned Bobby Hull in response to daver's post about Jagr being a goat without PO success.

He was saying that Jagr was the first goat talent without PO success during his prime, if Jagr had a no playoff success under a set of criteria, did Bobby Hull not a precedent ?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Eddie Shore is not a GOAT talent? Is it because of the era he played or is there something else missing with him?

Not so much era, I just think he was a big "highlights" player. Big hits, big head long rushes, so he attracted a little more praise than I think he deserved. I'm also taking "GOAT talent" more literally than is probably necessary for the purposes of this thread.

 

[MS]

3-22-25 in 52 playoff games at the ages of 18, 40 and 43 really tanks his career averages.

otherwise he's 156-75-101-176. That would be a statline that would be the envy of all but a handful of players of the past 35 years.

On one hand, there's not really a "signature run" there, but also, to average 1.13 points per game over a very large sample during your entire 20s and 30s in almost the lowest scoring 22 year span in modern history... WITHOUT the benefit of one or two 28-30 point runs... that ain't bad.

Saw the thread and went to post essentially this.

I'd also add his 11-1-7-8 in 2012 to make it 4-29-33 in 63 playoff games at age 18 and 40+ which leaves him at 145-74-94-168 over a 17-season stretch from 1991-2008. That's a 42-53-95 82-game pace over a huge length of time which encompassed basically the entire DPE when 95 points was competing for a scoring title most years.

Nothing wrong with Jagr's playoff production, at all.

 

[daver]

He was saying that Jagr was the first goat talent without PO success during his prime, if Jagr had a no playoff success under a set of criteria, did Bobby Hull not a precedent ?

He was 21 years old with a goalscoring title and Art Ross on his resume. It's debatable that he had already hit his prime. Jagr was clearly farther away from his prime.

That being said, one Cup for Hull is a bit dissappointing given multiple Cups for the other O6 legends. It's a bit like McDrai; a team with multiple Art Ross/Hart/Rocket winner that couldn't win (again).

Hard to truly critique Jagr (with Mario) given they won two together. His era rivals, Sakic and Forsberg, certainly benefitted from being on the same team with other talents but they do close the gap between them and Jagr all-time with their playoff resumes.

 

[PistolPete]

He was saying that Jagr was the first goat talent without PO success during his prime, if Jagr had a no playoff success under a set of criteria, did Bobby Hull not a precedent ?

PO success as in personal stats or being on a Cup winner?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Not so much era, I just think he was a big "highlights" player. Big hits, big head long rushes, so he attracted a little more praise than I think he deserved. I'm also taking "GOAT talent" more literally than is probably necessary for the purposes of this thread.

I think there's something to this, but I think it's more localized. Boston was "new" in Shore's prime. The NHL had only been there for 10 years and had minimal familiarity with high end hockey. Compared to Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal, where major hockey was 40-50 years old by the mid 30s.

So the Bruins fans were wow'd more by the violence and hits and rushes. While contemporary praise is always muted outside the home market, it is more muted for Shore than others of the era. In Boston media, Shore>>>>Hitchman. In Canadian media, Shore>>Hitchman

That being said, he was still the clear biggest star of his era and got more praise out of traditional markets than anyone else. I'll have him higher in the dman project on my initial list than he'll end up on the final list.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Re: Bobby Hull in the playoffs

Hull benefits in that he has a genuine, all-time, hero run in 1971. He's the best player on the Hawks (by quite a bit) and drags them to one game away from a Cup against dynasty Habs. He's in on 42% of their playoff goals.

In the finals, he puts up 9 points in 7 games, again tops of anyone (in on 50% of points). In the do-or-die back two games he puts up 3 in 2.

The media is all over him too, praised as the best in the playoffs, taking the Blackhawks further than they should have gone including upsetting the Rangers.

It's not a Cup. It's not McDavid 2024. But it is dragging a team through the playoffs.

His 1965 is really strong too. Upsets the Wings, and takes the dynasty Habs to 7. Not as strong in the finals, but demolishes the Wings.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Jagr just lacks that one big run that you would expect from someone that people try and talk about as a top 10 guy.

He has two cups but they were won his first two years in the league...as the guy he just couldn't really get it done.

Jagr had quite the image make over near the end of his career as this goofy clown type that everyone suddenly loved it odd to see

 

[CokenoPepsi]

He was awesome for the Rangers his last season in 2007-08 after he’d taken a step back as a player.

Pretty sure I remember Jagr said he was burnt out and stopped trying as much so he wouldn't trigger his option year for New York

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

He wasn't.

 

[daver]

Re: Bobby Hull in the playoffs

Hull benefits in that he has a genuine, all-time, hero run in 1971. He's the best player on the Hawks (by quite a bit) and drags them to one game away from a Cup against dynasty Habs. He's in on 42% of their playoff goals.

In the finals, he puts up 9 points in 7 games, again tops of anyone (in on 50% of points). In the do-or-die back two games he puts up 3 in 2.

The media is all over him too, praised as the best in the playoffs, taking the Blackhawks further than they should have gone including upsetting the Rangers.

It's not a Cup. It's not McDavid 2024. But it is dragging a team through the playoffs.

His 1965 is really strong too. Upsets the Wings, and takes the dynasty Habs to 7. Not as strong in the finals, but demolishes the Wings.

Why isn't it "McDavid 2024"?

He had a better SCF against a better team. Points in 6 of 7 games including 5 points that helped the Hawks get up 2-0 in the series and up 2-0 going into the 2nd period of Game 3. McDavid had one point through the first 8 periods in 2024 and his team was down 2-0 and 4-1 going into the 3rd of Game 3. He had points in 4 of 7 games.

Hull was the hero in the SF with a three points in Game 7 whereas McDavid was pointless in their Game 7 against the Canucks.

Hull put up 8 points in 4 games vs. an overwhlemed first round opponent, McDavid puts up 12 in 5 games against an overwhelmed opponent.

 

[PistolPete]

Jagr just lacks that one big run that you would expect from someone that people try and talk about as a top 10 guy.

He has two cups but they were won his first two years in the league...as the guy he just couldn't really get it done.

Hockey. Is. A. Team. Sport.

It's not tennis or golf.

So, it was the team that couldn't get it done.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Why isn't it "McDavid 2024"?

He had a better SCF against a better team. Points in 6 of 7 games including 5 points that helped the Hawks get up 2-0 in the series and up 2-0 going into the 2nd period of Game 3. McDavid had one point through the first 8 periods in 2024 and his team was down 2-0 and 4-1 going into the 3rd of Game 3. He had points in 4 of 7 games.

Hull was the hero in the SF with a three points in Game 7 whereas McDavid was pointless in their Game 7 against the Canucks.

Hull put up 8 points in 4 games vs. an overwhlemed first round opponent, McDavid puts up 12 in 5 games against an overwhelmed opponent.

I love Hull 71, but McDavid 2024 is just a plain better run.

Hull was first in PPG, but second in points. He was in on 42% of Hawks' goals. Hull was first on the Hawks in EVP (5th overall), but only 17% ahead of the next Hawk.

McDavid was first in PPG and first in points, all by wide margins. He was in on 49% of Oilers goals. He had 39% more EVP than any other player.

I think some time has helped digest McDavid 2024 and just how crazy it really was.

 

[MadLuke]

McDavid 2024

A bit like, after enough year removed from 1996, we though we would never see 150 pts again, a 42 pts playoff run ?

Maybe Malkin make it felt more likely than a 150pts run, everything in the playoff being shorter sample size is more likely to be noisy and have extreme, but drai-McDavid scoring at 2 ppg in 2022, 42 pts in 2024.

Looking at the list of names/run/year they hang with:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Like 1991, 1992 Mario Lemieux...., 1993 Gilmou/Gretzky type of comp.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Hockey. Is. A. Team. Sport.

It's not tennis or golf.

So, it was the team that couldn't get it done.

Yes.

But it isn't like Jagr didn't have plenty of talent around him...this to go along with his bad attitude doesn't help with him admitting he quit on multiple teams

 

[PistolPete]

Yes.

But it isn't like Jagr didn't have plenty of talent around him...this to go along with his bad attitude doesn't help with him admitting he quit on multiple teams

That admission supports the claim.

Him having the adequate support is subjective and ultimately moot because it's still a team sport. Just as a team can lose if a star player underperformed, so can they win if he underperforms as well as lose if he is lights out.

With all these possible scenarios, it is quite obvious one player alone doesn't make the difference- not even s goalie

 

[daver]

A bit like, after enough year removed from 1996, we though we would never see 150 pts again, a 42 pts playoff run ?

Maybe Malkin make it felt more likely than a 150pts run, everything in the playoff being shorter sample size is more likely to be noisy and have extreme, but drai-McDavid scoring at 2 ppg in 2022, 42 pts in 2024.

Other than McDavid, we have Draisaitl, Kucherov, and Matthews hitting numbers that are comparable to Wayne and Mario, while MacKinnon hit a point total level that only a Jagr with Mario had hit in 30 years.

A solo peak Jagr, Ovechkin, Crosby and a peak Malkin aren't on that list.

All numbers from the past six seasons of playoff and the regular season need context.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Were the playoffs that much different than the regular season in the 90s?
I mean the guy got 149 pts in 82 games, but only 23 in 18 games in the playoffs.
That's a drop off of 1.81ppg to 1.27ppg.

Playoffs are a best on best. You're not getting 4+ point nights against lottery teams. You're playing teams with records pretty close to your own that are much stronger defensively.

In 1996 Pittsburgh played Washington, NYR and Florida.

The rangers were 2 years removed from a cup win. Still had Messier, Richter and Leetch. They were the 5th best defensive team in the east.

Washington didn't have much offensive firepower but they were a beast defensively. 2nd best in the East and 3rd best GA overall.

Florida made the postseason for the first time and were the 4th best defensive team in the east. John Vanbiesbrouck was that team's MVP.

Meanwhile, 102 point 49 win Pittsburgh (huge amount in those days with no shootout or 3v3 OT) was the 3rd worst defensive team in the east and 7th worst in the NHL. The teams with worse defenses? 41 point Ottawa, 47 point San Jose, 54 point New York Islanders, 66 point Los Angeles, 68 point Edmonton and 78 point Winnipeg Jets.

That Pittsburgh team was a special teams monster; 109 powerplay goals. 18(!!!) Shorthanded goals. But as another poster mentioned, you had to pretty much kill a guy to get a penalty in those days. In the postseason refs swallowed their whistles way more than they do today. Mario and Jagr were absolutely mugged by dirtbags. That they were as effective as they were is a testament to their talent.

 

[MadLuke]

playoff defense adjusted stats:

Post in thread 'Adjusting playoff scoring for defense faced'

Mar 21, 2025

Process done, result are surprising in a way and not at all in another way

Most adjusted playoff points (per games value are the adjusted one):

full_name	games	points	adjpts	ppg	goals	adjgoals	gpg	player_rank
Wayne Gretzky	208	382	409.8	1.97	122	130.9	0.63	1
Mark Messier	236	295	317.8	1.35	109	116.8	0.49	2
Sidney...

• MadLuke

• 

maybe more interestingly for someone that played so much playoff past his prime, best 7 playoff runs:

Post in thread 'Adjusting playoff scoring for defense faced'

Mar 22, 2025

Best X playoffs runs in their career (not necessarily consecutive)

Spoiler: Best 3

full_name	games	goals	points	gpg	ppg
Wayne Gretzky	61	46.8	137.9	0.77	2.26
Nikita Kucherov	71	31.9	129.5	0.45	1.82
Connor McDavid	53	34.8	128.8	0.66	2.43
Mario Lemieux	56	50.8	124	0.91	2.21
Evgeni...

• MadLuke

• 

full_name	games	goals	points	gpg	ppg
Wayne Gretzky	132	91.6	275.7	0.69	2.09
Nikita Kucherov	136	72.7	224.5	0.53	1.65
Sidney Crosby	131	79.4	223.9	0.61	1.71
Joe Sakic	121	92.4	213.5	0.76	1.76
Evgeni Malkin	133	78.6	208.0	0.59	1.56
Mark Messier	137	82.9	204.1	0.6	1.49
Mario Lemieux	101	84.6	196.3	0.84	1.94
Peter Forsberg	113	69.9	192.5	0.62	1.7
Jari Kurri	139	91.3	184.7	0.66	1.33
Marian Hossa	147	57.9	177.7	0.39	1.21
Patrick Kane	119	72.8	174.8	0.61	1.47
Phil Esposito	93	76.0	168.5	0.82	1.81
Sergei Fedorov	118	50.7	166.8	0.43	1.41
Steve Yzerman	124	60.4	164.9	0.49	1.33
Jaromir Jagr	97	72.4	163.5	0.75	1.69
Mike Modano	125	60.1	163.1	0.48	1.3
Gordie Howe	80	70.3	162.5	0.88	2.03
Connor McDavid	74	49.8	158.7	0.67	2.15
Glenn Anderson	136	67.6	158.2	0.5	1.16
Jean Beliveau	89	63.5	158.0	0.71	1.78
Jonathan Toews	120	59.0	157.7	0.49	1.31
Nicklas Lidstrom	143	43.4	157.3	0.3	1.1
Brett Hull	117	85.8	156.9	0.73	1.34
Mike Bossy	113	83.1	154.8	0.73	1.37
Daniel Brière	112	70.9	154.4	0.63	1.38
Mark Recchi	128	61.6	153.1	0.48	1.2
Doug Gilmour	108	53.3	153.0	0.49	1.42
Henrik Zetterberg	102	70.9	152.4	0.69	1.49
Bryan Trottier	122	59.1	151.6	0.48	1.24
Ryan Getzlaf	92	44.9	150.8	0.49	1.64

per game ranking

full_name	games	goals	points	gpg	ppg
Connor McDavid	74	49.8	158.7	0.67	2.15
Wayne Gretzky	132	91.6	275.7	0.69	2.09
Gordie Howe	80	70.3	162.5	0.88	2.03
Mario Lemieux	101	84.6	196.3	0.84	1.94
Phil Esposito	93	76	168.5	0.82	1.81
Jean Beliveau	89	63.5	158	0.71	1.78
Joe Sakic	121	92.4	213.5	0.76	1.76
Sidney Crosby	131	79.4	223.9	0.61	1.71
Peter Forsberg	113	69.9	192.5	0.62	1.7
Jaromir Jagr	97	72.4	163.5	0.75	1.69
Nikita Kucherov	136	72.7	224.5	0.53	1.65
Ryan Getzlaf	92	44.9	150.8	0.49	1.64
Evgeni Malkin	133	78.6	208	0.59	1.56
Mark Messier	137	82.9	204.1	0.6	1.49
Henrik Zetterberg	102	70.9	152.4	0.69	1.49
Patrick Kane	119	72.8	174.8	0.61	1.47
Doug Gilmour	108	53.3	153	0.49	1.42
Sergei Fedorov	118	50.7	166.8	0.43	1.41
Daniel Brière	112	70.9	154.4	0.63	1.38
Mike Bossy	113	83.1	154.8	0.73	1.37
Brett Hull	117	85.8	156.9	0.73	1.34
Jari Kurri	139	91.3	184.7	0.66	1.33
Steve Yzerman	124	60.4	164.9	0.49	1.33
Jonathan Toews	120	59	157.7	0.49	1.31
Mike Modano	125	60.1	163.1	0.48	1.3
Bryan Trottier	122	59.1	151.6	0.48	1.24
Marian Hossa	147	57.9	177.7	0.39	1.21
Mark Recchi	128	61.6	153.1	0.48	1.2
Glenn Anderson	136	67.6	158.2	0.5	1.16
Nicklas Lidstrom	143	43.4	157.3	0.3	1.1

It does not go 100% against the feeling of a larger regular season->playoff drop that for some other, but higher the playoff hero Kucherov.... and virtually matching Sakic-Crosby-Forsberg.... is still quite something, even if some could expect him to beat those.

When you look at the name of the players that arguably scored more than Jagr in the playoff without being in a margin of error throw stone, they are only the Howe-Gretzky-McDavid-Lemieux type of player.

 

[daver]

Playoffs are a best on best. You're not getting 4+ point nights against lottery teams. You're playing teams with records pretty close to your own that are much stronger defensively.

In 1996 Pittsburgh played Washington, NYR and Florida.

The rangers were 2 years removed from a cup win. Still had Messier, Richter and Leetch. They were the 5th best defensive team in the east.

Washington didn't have much offensive firepower but they were a beast defensively. 2nd best in the East and 3rd best GA overall.

Florida made the postseason for the first time and were the 4th best defensive team in the east. John Vanbiesbrouck was that team's MVP.

Meanwhile, 102 point 49 win Pittsburgh (huge amount in those days with no shootout or 3v3 OT) was the 3rd worst defensive team in the east and 7th worst in the NHL. The teams with worse defenses? 41 point Ottawa, 47 point San Jose, 54 point New York Islanders, 66 point Los Angeles, 68 point Edmonton and 78 point Winnipeg Jets.

That Pittsburgh team was a special teams monster; 109 powerplay goals. 18(!!!) Shorthanded goals. But as another poster mentioned, you had to pretty much kill a guy to get a penalty in those days. In the postseason refs swallowed their whistles way more than they do today. Mario and Jagr were absolutely mugged by dirtbags. That they were as effective as they were is a testament to their talent.

1 goal and 5 points in the 7 game ECF in 1996 is the biggest example of Jagr underwhelming. Mario only had one goal himself.

They were both meeting expectations going into the ECF then hit a defensive wall that could not be overcome with pure offense-only talent; a common theme in the league, especially as the DPE kicked in.

Jagr, IMO, should be clearly behind Hull despite similar regular season resumes as he showed more of a "he could not have done more to help his team win" than Jagr.