Why was Jagr so underwhelming in the playoffs?

[Coffey]

Was looking through random stats and came across this, kind of surprising to me.

 

[FourHourParekhtion]

Because in the Stanley Cup playoffs of the 90s, you could shank someone and it would only be a penalty if the guy died.

 

[ManofSteel55]

The guy was nearly a point per game in 208 playoff games over 18 years, with a break in the middle of that where he played overseas. If you look at his bottom 10 seasons, he was still a point per game in 5 of them, and 3 of them were when he was older than Jesus (11/12, 12/13, and 15/16). One, he only played 3 games, so he was likely playing injured.

This was also the dead puck era, and playoff hockey was very clutch/grab/hold, and very anit-penalty, so everyone's numbers went down in the playoffs. I think these numbers are fine. I do find it interesting though, that he exited the playoffs so early, for so often. That's team stuff though, its not his fault his GM's couldn't build a competitive team around him for all those years.

 

[WarriorofTime]

A lot of his teams weren't that good post-Lemieux and they could key in on him.

 

[Coffey]

Because in the Stanley Cup playoffs of the 90s, you could shank someone and it would only be a penalty if the guy died.

The guy was nearly a point per game in 208 playoff games over 18 years, with a break in the middle of that where he played overseas. If you look at his bottom 10 seasons, he was still a point per game in 5 of them, and 3 of them were when he was older than Jesus (11/12, 12/13, and 15/16). One, he only played 3 games, so he was likely playing injured.

This was also the dead puck era, and playoff hockey was very clutch/grab/hold, and very anit-penalty, so everyone's numbers went down in the playoffs. I think these numbers are fine. I do find it interesting though, that he exited the playoffs so early, for so often. That's team stuff though, its not his fault his GM's couldn't build a competitive team around him for all those years.

Were the playoffs that much different than the regular season in the 90s?

I mean the guy got 149 pts in 82 games, but only 23 in 18 games in the playoffs.
That's a drop off of 1.81ppg to 1.27ppg.

 

[seventieslord]

3-22-25 in 52 playoff games at the ages of 18, 40 and 43 really tanks his career averages.

otherwise he's 156-75-101-176. That would be a statline that would be the envy of all but a handful of players of the past 35 years.

On one hand, there's not really a "signature run" there, but also, to average 1.13 points per game over a very large sample during your entire 20s and 30s in almost the lowest scoring 22 year span in modern history... WITHOUT the benefit of one or two 28-30 point runs... that ain't bad.

 

[FourHourParekhtion]

Yes.

The level of violence was significantly higher than the 90s.

Add to that, you couldn’t make a two line pass until 2005.

Then once you’re in the offensive zone, you’re trying to score on Brodeur or Richter, or Hextall, or Vanbiesbrouk, or Kolzig or Cujo.

If it was easy, everyone would’ve done it.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The Penguins were typically lower seeds too. Going against teams like the Devils and Flyers, who could hone in on a one line team, makes it hard to put up points.

 

[majormajor]

That's still one of the best playoff points per game marks of that whole generation.

I think some folks have been spoiled by McDavid and Draisaitl type playoff performances.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Jagr was a very good playoff performer at his peak. Here's how he ranked during his best seven years:

He led the NHL in per-game production. I'm not sure what else he could have been expected to do. (Granted, the Penguins didn't go on as many deep playoff runs as the Red Wings and Avalanche, so this probably inflated Jagr's pace somewhat - but it's still a really good result).

 

[jigglysquishy]

Jagr was a very good playoff performer at his peak. Here's how he ranked during his best seven years:

View attachment 1049858

He led the NHL in per-game production. I'm not sure what else he could have been expected to do. (Granted, the Penguins didn't go on as many deep playoff runs as the Red Wings and Avalanche, so this probably inflated Jagr's pace somewhat - but it's still a really good result).

At one point on here I had done a round by round of the era. Jagr is still first in early rounds only, but Sakic is right there with him. Forsberg and Fedorov get close too.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

At one point on here I had done a round by round of the era. Jagr is still first in early rounds only, but Sakic is right there with him. Forsberg and Fedorov get close too.

Not surprising. Their production should decrease, at least somewhat, as the competition gets better in later rounds.

 

[The Macho Man]

On one hand, there's not really a "signature run" there, but also, to average 1.13 points per game over a very large sample during your entire 20s and 30s in almost the lowest scoring 22 year span in modern history... WITHOUT the benefit of one or two 28-30 point runs... that ain't bad.

This is honestly my issue with him. A couple of "signature runs" is what wins Cups. I value peak playoff performance much higher than even RS.

 

[WarriorofTime]

That's still one of the best playoff points per game marks of that whole generation.

I think some folks have been spoiled by McDavid and Draisaitl type playoff performances.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Pretty solid (1991-92 through 2002-03, min. 75 GP filter)

Here is regular season 1991-92 through 2002-03, min 500 GP filter

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Jagr drops, but so does everyone that qualifies for postseason category really, Jagr maybe a bit more than some others [like the ones who played on era's best teams] for reasons cited.

 

[seventieslord]

This is honestly my issue with him. A couple of "signature runs" is what wins Cups. I value peak playoff performance much higher than even RS.

Look at The Macho Man, for example. Not the greatest career average, although very strong, but he at least has the match against Ricky Steamboat that defines his career.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is honestly my issue with him.

Yeah with the Penguins two big disappointing playoff results, 93 and 96, I think you can say they were maybe a big Jagr performance away. In '93 even though Jagr had arrived and was great the prior year, he was still very young (turned 21 in February) but by '96, I think you can ask for Jagr to do more against Florida and maybe that's difference between Cup/No Cup.

I can't fault him too much in his Art Ross 4-peat stretch. Those teams weren't very good.

 

[GKJ]

It’s called the clutch and grab era.

 

[Michael Farkas]

A lot of the Jagr years are with very weak teams. It was basically Jagr vs. all or, at best, top-six vs. all. As noted, in the DPE, you could hang, draw, and quarter a star player without much trouble.

I'm on record as calling 1999 his signature run. But that's only because he saved the franchise by almost singlehandedly beating the Cup favorites from the East. It's no one else's signature run, but also not many other players were in that position either. Like, there is no "Nikolai Antropov saves the Thrashers" run haha

And I wouldn't debate someone that rejected the concept or the notion either.

But if you go back and watch it (presuming you didn't live and die by it), there's just so much nonsense that isn't on Jagr. Barrasso giving up goals from the blueline in game 7's because he's a horse's ass. Late career Kevin Hatcher, any time Brad Werenka, Jiri Slegr, Darius Kasparaitis being #1 or top pair d-men for extended periods of time. A bottom six that generally was just hoping to only be a minus-1 on the night. There's just a lot of rubbish in there that you can't really win with.

It's not the worst offender by any means, but here's how 1999 ended...



Our best two-way center loses this draw clean, fine. When this shot gets taken, the Pens out number the Leafs 5 to 3 in the zone. No Leafs are behind the back two Penguins.

Barrasso makes it a point to burp this mid range wrister up into the middle of the ice. Slegr tries to kick it in and misses. Hatcher is useless in this regard, as usual. And the ne'er used former Penguin slams it home as half the team takes a siesta on like the second shift of overtime....

Again, there's better examples, but a lot of those teams don't get enough discredit for how bad of a team they were...even though they probably had an above average buffet of stars (Jagr) and semi-stars (Kovalev) at times.

 

[vikash1987]

Jagr, in his prime, was as gifted a scorer as anyone in the history of the game. And 200+ points over the span of a playoff career is phenomenal. But he definitely had stretches in which his playoff production was “underwhelming.” Go back and look at the series against Florida in ‘96, or against the Devils in ‘01—in which he went scoreless (as did Mario).

I think the main reason was the opposition: he was absolutely smothered by those checking, defensive teams, and he was stripped of the time and space he needed to work his magic. Brilliant execution by those teams. Other reasons: groin and shoulder injuries, along with limited offensive support from other linemates.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's not the worst offender by any means, but here's how 1999 ended...



Our best two-way center loses this draw clean, fine. When this shot gets taken, the Pens out number the Leafs 5 to 3 in the zone. No Leafs are behind the back two Penguins.

Barrasso makes it a point to burp this mid range wrister up into the middle of the ice. Slegr tries to kick it in and misses. Hatcher is useless in this regard, as usual. And the ne'er used former Penguin slams it home as half the team takes a siesta on like the second shift of overtime....

Again, there's better examples, but a lot of those teams don't get enough discredit for how bad of a team they were...even though they probably had an above average buffet of stars (Jagr) and semi-stars (Kovalev) at times.

Thoughts on 34 year old (or as he's now known, "mid-career") Ron Francis from this time?

 

[The Panther]

Let's see... In Jagr's second season, aged (barely) 20, he scored 24 points in 21 games, led the playoffs in even-strength goals, and won the Cup. And this is underwhelming...?

In '95, he scored 10 goals in 12 games, without Mario. 31 points in 23 games in '96 and '97.

The next three playoffs combined (all without Mario), Jagr scored 37 points in 26 games, all in the dead-puck era.

Seems pretty awesome to me!

 

[Michael Farkas]

Thoughts on 34 year old (or as he's now known, "mid-career") Ron Francis from this time?

I don't think I'd be that different from what others thought/think. He was so good defensively on a team that didn't have guys that really did that, so he stood out. At this point, he really didn't skate that well. But he had what I like to call "defensive viscosity" - he stuck to everyone in a meaningful way, he got in the way, it was always in the right spot. Was he back-to-back assist leader good? Meh, that's probably overselling it. But he was just such a good facilitator of all things. When I watch young centers, I look at how they manage all the ice that a center has to manage...Francis really owned the ice that belonged to him, even if it was in a somewhat unassuming way.

I was really disappointed - to the degree that I still remember it - to hear on my AM/FM clock radio one summer morning that he had signed with Carolina haha

 

[BraveCanadian]

He wasn't, but he played on pretty bad teams and was targeted and hurt pretty often during the time he was "the man" in Pittsburgh. One guy can't win the Stanley Cup.

Post in thread 'ATD 2013 BIO Thread (quotes, stats, pics, sources, everything)'

Jan 22, 2013

With their first round pick (17) in the 2013 ATD, the Guelph Platers have selected: Jaromir Jagr, RW

Career Highlights:

2 time Stanley Cup Champion 1991, 1992
1998 Olympic Gold Medal Winner
2005, 2010 World Championships Winner
15th Member of the Triple Gold Club (World Champion, Olympic Champion, Stanley...​

• BraveCanadian

 

[The Macho Man]

Look at The Macho Man, for example. Not the greatest career average, although very strong, but he at least has the match against Ricky Steamboat that defines his career.

You get it.

 

[Staniowski]

Jagr was great in the playoffs. In the DPE, he and Forsberg were by-far the two best playoff scorers.

I remember Scotty Bowman said in the '92 playoffs that Jagr was already the 2nd best hockey player in the world.