Why isn't Mike Keenan in the hall of fame?

[CokenoPepsi]

With Hitchcock going in now it has me wondering...Burns, Hitchcock, Quinn all in the hall..why isn't Keenan in?

Maybe not the same shelf life as others but just as much success with a Cup and coaching multiple other finalists.

I mean maybe he gets in after he dies? But why not do it when he is alive?

Click to read more...

 

[MadLuke]

Made very powerful and popular enemies, I would imagine.

 

[MS]

He 100% should be in terms of resume but there is a lot of baggage there in terms of how he treated people and players. And as a guy like Mike Babcock is basically forced out of the league for being an ass, it would be a bit difficult to induct Keenan into the HHOF when he's basically the Godfather of a lot of that kind of stuff.

But that said, the amount of different levels he's won at is probably the most impressive of any coach in history :

Won in NHL - 1994 Cup
Won in AHL - 1983 Calder Cup
Won in CHL - 1980 OHL championship
Won in University hockey - 1984 CIAU championship
Won in KHL - 2014 Gagarin Cup
Won in international hockey - 1987, 1991 Canada Cups

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

He 100% should be in terms of resume but there is a lot of baggage there in terms of how he treated people and players. And as a guy like Mike Babcock is basically forced out of the league for being an ass, it would be a bit difficult to induct Keenan into the HHOF when he's basically the Godfather of a lot of that kind of stuff.

But that said, the amount of different levels he's won at is probably the most impressive of any coach in history :

Won in NHL - 1994 Cup
Won in AHL - 1983 Calder Cup
Won in CHL - 1980 OHL championship
Won in University hockey - 1984 CIAU championship
Won in KHL - 2014 Gagarin Cup
Won in international hockey - 1987, 1991 Canada Cups

I know a lot of players didn’t like him, and fully believe he’s made enemies, but I can’t say I’ve ever heard Keenan implied in any transgression close to Babcock’s.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

The

He 100% should be in terms of resume but there is a lot of baggage there in terms of how he treated people and players. And as a guy like Mike Babcock is basically forced out of the league for being an ass, it would be a bit difficult to induct Keenan into the HHOF when he's basically the Godfather of a lot of that kind of stuff.

Keenan has said that absolutely everything he did as a coach in that vein was patterned after Bowman, and hes at every HHOF event imaginable.

The fundamental sticking point keeping keenan out of the hall is the 1980 Memorial cup scandal

Big Read: The craziest Memorial Cup ever is still starting fights

www.sportsnet.ca

Basically, Keenan threw a game in the memorial cup round robin in an attempt to pick his opponent for the final game. The HHOF decision makers know about the incident and were not pleased

 

[MS]

I know a lot of players didn’t like him, and fully believe he’s made enemies, but I can’t say I’ve ever heard Keenan implied in any transgression close to Babcock’s.

When Keenan was in Vancouver, Grant Ledyard's wife was diagnosed with cancer so he left the team briefly. When he came back, Keenan had thrown his gear in the garbage and told the rest of the team that Ledyard had quit on them.

There are lots of stories like this.

Apparently he once told Ron Sutter that his twin Rich would be getting benched until Ron played better. Stuff like this is sociopathic and straight out of Babcock's playbook.

The

Keenan has said that absolutely everything he did as a coach in that vein was patterned after Bowman, and hes at every HHOF event imaginable.

The fundamental sticking point keeping keenan out of the hall is the 1980 Memorial cup scandal

Big Read: The craziest Memorial Cup ever is still starting fights

www.sportsnet.ca

Basically, Keenan threw a game in the memorial cup round robin in an attempt to pick his opponent for the final game. The HHOF decision makers know about the incident and were not pleased

If Bowman tried his act from the 1970s in the league now, he'd be out of the league in a year.

I'd forgotten about the Memorial Cup thing and yeah, that's a problem.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

With Hitchcock going in now it has me wondering...Burns, Hitchcock, Quinn all in the hall..why isn't Keenan in?

Maybe not the same shelf life as others but just as much success with a Cup and coaching multiple other finalists.

I mean maybe he gets in after he dies? But why not do it when he is alive?

I think it's obvious, no?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

influential ppl willing to go to bat for keenan: roenick, pronger probably, messier probably?

influential ppl who hated him: gretzky, yzerman, gartner, chelios, doug wilson, brett hull, brian burke, the late pat quinn, and i think shanahan but i’m not totally sure

i usually think the hockey establishment’s gatekeeping is stupid but in this case what goes around comes around

 

[MadLuke]

Keenan has said that absolutely everything he did as a coach in that vein was patterned after Bowman, and hes at every HHOF event imaginable.

If Bowman tried his act from the 1970s in the league now, he'd be out of the league in a year.

In Montreal there was a popular saying, you hated Bowman 364 days of the year, (i.e. only exception made for the day you won the cup being implied)

 

[The Pale King]

I'm more than okay with him being out. He should have won more than the one Cup with the rosters he inherited or in some cases, partially assembled himself.

That those 90s Hawks teams don't have a Cup (and getting swept with that roster, the game 1 collapse etc.) is a black-eye on his resume, and that's before getting into the inter-personal stuff.

You only have to squint a bit for him to have zero Cup wins as a coach (like say Gelinas' shot goes in or the refs actually apply the rule book to Messier).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Quinn all in the hall

is pat quinn really in the hall? did i miss something?

 

[Professor What]

is pat quinn really in the hall? did i miss something?

Went in 2016. Too bad he wasn't around to see it.

 

[reckoning]

influential ppl willing to go to bat for keenan: roenick, pronger probably, messier probably?

influential ppl who hated him: gretzky, yzerman, gartner, chelios, doug wilson, brett hull, brian burke, the late pat quinn, and i think shanahan but i’m not totally sure

i usually think the hockey establishment’s gatekeeping is stupid but in this case what goes around comes around

Mike Gartner is a long-term member of the selection committee.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Mike Gartner is a long-term member of the selection committee.

yup exactly

 

[The Panther]

I think Keenan should be in. He won everything at every level, including international, and he was one of the more famous coaches of his era as well. He was also hugely influential, as he was the first notable coach to switch to short shifts, with Philly in the mid-1980s.

He was a mind-games coach, so he made lots of enemies, including superstars, but a coach's job isn't to make friends.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

I was watching a documentary on the '87 Canada Cup recently - it was really good and I have no idea what the title was - and one thing stood out to me in particular. I understood that Keenan ripped into someone on the team (off camera), it was never revealed who the person was, and in a scene soon after that (in practice), Keenan uncharacteristically goes up to Wayne (trying to be buddy-buddy) referencing some joke, while Gretzky skated away looking like he wanted nothing to do with Keenan.

It intrigued me that Mike Keenan studied Pat Riley at one point. I'm also curious what historical dictators and generals would make of Keenan.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Went in 2016. Too bad he wasn't around to see it.

wow how did i miss that?

great great man, the game wouldn’t be the same without him

 

[Hobnobs]

I know a lot of players didn’t like him, and fully believe he’s made enemies, but I can’t say I’ve ever heard Keenan implied in any transgression close to Babcock’s.

No, Keenan was an ass in the same vein as Babcock for sure. Almost threw the cup finals because he was more interested in playing mind games with Leetch than actually winning.

If Bowman tried his act from the 1970s in the league now, he'd be out of the league in a year.

I'd forgotten about the Memorial Cup thing and yeah, that's a problem.

Like what specifically did he do in the 70's that would get him thrown out today? Genuine question.

 

[Doctor Coffin]

Made very powerful and popular enemies, I would imagine.

I can't help but think that his bolting on the Rangers on a technicality shortly after the 1994 finals managed to displease some folks with considerable influence.

That those 90s Hawks teams don't have a Cup (and getting swept with that roster, the game 1 collapse etc.) is a black-eye on his resume, and that's before getting into the inter-personal stuff.

You only have to squint a bit for him to have zero Cup wins as a coach (like say Gelinas' shot goes in or the refs actually apply the rule book to Messier).

Then there are the black eyes of him being given the keys to the franchise in St. Louis and Vancouver and making right messes of those situations, not even getting into the personal aspects of those tenures. He never got near the final as GM, but at least Scotty Bowman was able to stay competitive and relevant during his time in Buffalo, for the most part.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

When Keenan was in Vancouver, Grant Ledyard's wife was diagnosed with cancer so he left the team briefly. When he came back, Keenan had thrown his gear in the garbage and told the rest of the team that Ledyard had quit on them.

There are lots of stories like this.

Apparently he once told Ron Sutter that his twin Rich would be getting benched until Ron played better. Stuff like this is sociopathic and straight out of Babcock's playbook.



If Bowman tried his act from the 1970s in the league now, he'd be out of the league in a year.

I'd forgotten about the Memorial Cup thing and yeah, that's a problem.

No, Keenan was an ass in the same vein as Babcock for sure. Almost threw the cup finals because he was more interested in playing mind games with Leetch than actually winning.




Like what specifically did he do in the 70's that would get him thrown out today? Genuine question.

Bowman shows a lot of common warning signs of a sociopath. In a lot of ways, hes creepy, where Keenan is usually acting like a moron to piss off his players & demand 5% more performance.

15 Signs of a Sociopath: Traits & Characteristics

A sociopath is a term used to describe a person with a severe form of antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). Sociopaths do not have a fully functional conscience and tend to be manipulative, exploitative, or even abusive toward other people. Other sociopathic traits include superficial charm...

www.choosingtherapy.com

1. A Hunger for Power & Dominance​

The decision to install Irving Grundman as GM, (he turned out to be a dude) was made by Sam Pollock and Jean Beliveau.

They rationalized that Bowman just wasn't GM material. Pollock witnessed many demands to trade different players after a bad game and do things while being in an irational zone. Hardly the cautious and thought-out traits necessary to succeed as a GM.

Im quoting this from elsewhere on HF because theres a similar primary source quote from Beliveau I dont have in digital format. The gist of it was Scotty in the 70s constantly burst into upstairs meetings with Pollock and demanded instant trades. I think its common knowledge that Bowman pushed for GM-powers-without-the-responsibility in every stop he made.

for a followup, from Blood Feud, Dater about the 2000s Red Wings:

Maybe more than money, though, Bowman wanted control of his team's player personnel. Throughout his career, it always got under Bowman's skin that some other guy upstairs might have more power than him over which players to have on the roster. Sure, the owner was one thing; he signed the checks and could tell Scotty what to do without chafing him too much. But GMs and others with fancy titles like director of player development were another story. Bowman knew nobody worked harder than he observing talent around the league around the world, for that matter. He knew what kind of players he wanted, so why did he have to consult with some lazy GM about it? Why couldn't he just make the deal himself, save everybody a lot of trouble?

If youve never dealt with this kind of person before, a common corollary that comes with domineering/sociopathic behaviour is they try to learn absolutely everything about you. Not in a getting to know you sort of way, like they want to know personal details that have nothing to do with the job:

Bowman was an incurable hockey gossip, always wanting to know the smallest details of everybody's life in the game. If a player was in the midst of a divorce or recently got picked up for jaywalking, chances were good Scotty already knew.

"Maybe the most compulsive gossip I've ever met," said former Free Press writer Jason La Canfora.

7. Superficial Charm & Powers of Persuasion​

9. Few Close Bonds or Relationships​

“There were times he was around my kids, and then he’s like Mr. Grandfather”, Darren McCarty said. "But then the next day, he'll walk right by you in the hallway and not say anything to you, and you're like, 'What's up with that?"

10. Manipulative Tendencies​

Mike Kuta, a former Gulf War marine reconnaissance specialist, was hired by the Wings to serve alongside public relations director John Hahn shortly into Bowman's tenure. It didn't take long for Kuta to get a second form of military education from Bowman-and to learn the best way to make him like you, like McGuire did, was to stand up to him.

"I remember one time he was sitting in the coach's room, before or after a practice. All the coaches are in there watching video," Kuta said. “I had a bunch of requests that I needed to go over with him. If he knew you needed something, he would kind of blow you off. I was standing in the doorway. He just kept cutting me off, going, 'One minute, one minute.' And then he looked at me and he goes, 'Go get me a coffee.' I was like, 'What?' I said it out loud, even though I didn't intend to, I said, 'f*** off.' It just came out. The second I said it, I thought, 'Oh Christ, this is the end of my career. I just told Scotty Bowman to f*** off.' My whole future flashed in front of my eyes, I'm going to be in the unemployment line forever. And he laughed out loud. After that, he was nicer to me. It was almost like he tested people. Our relationship from then on was better."

Testing personal boundaries in ways completely unrelated to the job description is seriously creepy behaviour.

Another example from his Montreal days:

(Marc Tardiffs) contract with Montreal expired at the end of the 1972-73 season, and that year Bowman, seeing the writing on the wall, told him, “Stop thinking about all the money you're going to make in the World Hockey Association and sign with the Canadiens."

Tardif responded, "Why don't you mind your own business?"

Clearly an inappropriate move for a head coach, with a thinly veiled threat implied.

6. Irresponsible/Impulsive Decision Making​

"I don't think Scotty the GM always helped Scotty the coach," Kelley said. "He could act impulsively about players. You'd hear stories about how, at the draft, the scouts would be all set to draft some kid and Scotty would come in at the last second and announce some other selection. They'd look at him like 'What was that?' and Scotty might go, 'Oh, I talked to my friend about this kid a few minutes ago.""

Indeed, in the 1981 NHL draft, Bowman's Sabres chose the immortal Jiri Dudacek with the 17th overall pick, passing on such later picks as Chris Chelios, Mike Vernon, and John Vanbiesbrouck. Dudacek would never play a game for the Sabres, becoming entangled with his Czech team over his rights and developing a mysterious illness. While Buffalo's top picks in 1982 and 1983, Phil Housley and Tom Barrasso, would go on to excellent careers, from 1984 to 1986 Buffalo took the forgettable Mikael Andersson, Calle Johansson, and Shawn Anderson with their top picks passing on Patrick Roy, Stephane Richer, Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille, Gary Suter, Joe Nieuwendyk, Brian Leetch, and Vincent Damphousse.

For further context, that was the first round pick for the Sabres in 1981, where Bowman as GM walks up to his scouting staff who spend their entire working years producing an internal ranking for draft day and he throws it completely out the window.

I can produce more

 

[Hobnobs]

Bowman shows a lot of common warning signs of a sociopath. In a lot of ways, hes creepy, where Keenan is usually acting like a moron to piss off his players & demand 5% more performance.

15 Signs of a Sociopath: Traits & Characteristics

A sociopath is a term used to describe a person with a severe form of antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). Sociopaths do not have a fully functional conscience and tend to be manipulative, exploitative, or even abusive toward other people. Other sociopathic traits include superficial charm...

www.choosingtherapy.com

1. A Hunger for Power & Dominance​

Im quoting this from elsewhere on HF because theres a similar primary source quote from Beliveau I dont have in digital format. The gist of it was Scotty in the 70s constantly burst into upstairs meetings with Pollock and demanded instant trades. I think its common knowledge that Bowman pushed for GM-powers-without-the-responsibility in every stop he made.

for a followup, from Blood Feud, Dater about the 2000s Red Wings:



If youve never dealt with this kind of person before, a common corollary that comes with domineering/sociopathic behaviour is they try to learn absolutely everything about you. Not in a getting to know you sort of way, like they want to know personal details that have nothing to do with the job:

7. Superficial Charm & Powers of Persuasion​

9. Few Close Bonds or Relationships​

10. Manipulative Tendencies​

Testing personal boundaries in ways completely unrelated to the job description is seriously creepy behaviour.

Another example from his Montreal days:



Clearly an inappropriate move for a head coach, with a thinly veiled threat implied.

6. Irresponsible/Impulsive Decision Making​

For further context, that was the first round pick for the Sabres in 1981, where Bowman as GM walks up to his scouting staff who spend their entire working years producing an internal ranking for draft day and he throws it completely out the window.

I can produce more

Alright, I would've been fine with examples without the amateur psychology analysis. Cherry picking data and making superficial observations on a few events does not garner enough information to set a diagnosis. Especially since all those traits can be found in a variety of personality disorders.

Yes, those are warning signs but at the same time he worked well in Detroit with loads of strong management head above him (Holland, Nill and Devellano for example). Seems most problems stems from 70s-early80s Bowman.

 

[Crosby2010]

The fundamental sticking point keeping keenan out of the hall is the 1980 Memorial cup scandal

Big Read: The craziest Memorial Cup ever is still starting fights

www.sportsnet.ca

Basically, Keenan threw a game in the memorial cup round robin in an attempt to pick his opponent for the final game. The HHOF decision makers know about the incident and were not pleased

I do know about that, and here is my thought about this, I don't think Keenan knew about this at all. I believe it was his players that threw the game. If anything Keenan was too proud and stubborn (not in a bad way) to be scared off by another opponent. There was an article written some years ago about the 1980 Memorial Cup and the way the writer portrayed the game that was thrown was that he had witnessed a player scoring a goal and having this hesitation before cheering as if to say "Oh no, what did I do?" Anyway, the writer of the article who was around in 1980 did not believe Keenan was part of that.

I think his resume speaks for itself. It is easily HHOF caliber for a coach/builder. The problem is as others mentioned Keenan made some powerful enemies. While he did win the 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups he did make some questionable cuts to the teams. I honestly think the 1987 team does better with a stronger defense. Lots of good names were not on that team. 1991 Yzerman gets cut for some absurd reason. I am not going to hang him for this, because the teams did win and he obviously had a different vision for the team that no doubt he'd have thought about during this time. So like I said, either way, the results end up being good. The Flyers are supposed to be rebuilding after 1984 and then this new coach comes in and they finish 1st overall and go to the final. Philly hasn't won a Cup since 1975 and it was Keenan's teams that came the closest. He may have driven some people nuts in New York, but he won there.

I honestly think from what I have seen of Keenan was that he was a gentleman off the ice. I think coaching and being competitive and being behind the bench was a Jekyll and Hyde type of thing. He would do anything to win and had that cutthroat feel to him. But off the ice he just seems quiet. Reminds me in a way of a guy like Don Shula. Absolutely crazy on the field at times, screaming and yelling, but very likeable off the field and in any interview he's been in. There are some men where the competitive nature just changes their demeanor.

 

[Run the Gauntlet]

It intrigued me that Mike Keenan studied Pat Riley at one point. I'm also curious what historical dictators and generals would make of Keenan.

He would be their "right-hand-man" or more.

 

[sr edler]

Keenan's just too much of a goofball.

He was certainly not close to influential enough to warrant any type of serious post-career admiration.

He also didn't do shit back-half career. Keenan in Vancouver was a train-wreck.

 

[Doctor Coffin]

influential ppl willing to go to bat for keenan: roenick, pronger probably, messier probably?

influential ppl who hated him: gretzky, yzerman, gartner, chelios, doug wilson, brett hull, brian burke, the late pat quinn, and i think shanahan but i’m not totally sure

i usually think the hockey establishment’s gatekeeping is stupid but in this case what goes around comes around

Shanahan - definitely. Not sure of the extent of their influences but other well-knowns he also made enemies of were Denis Savard, Curtis Joseph, Trevor Linden, Tony Amonte...

That those 90s Hawks teams don't have a Cup (and getting swept with that roster, the game 1 collapse etc.) is a black-eye on his resume, and that's before getting into the inter-personal stuff.

Speaking of the 1992 final, three of the four games were one goal losses, but Keenan basically gifted game 2 to the Penguins (3-1) by benching Jeremy Roenick and Steve Larmer for most of the contest in an ill-timed fit of pique.

Embarrassing first-round losses can happen to anyone, but what happened to the Flyers in 1986 and the Blackhawks in 1991 can also be considered black eyes.